Still Seek Answer: Free Will

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I think it may also help to clarify “free” from what. There are several kinds of freedom. People have some and not others.

[1] There is freedom from God’s eternal decrees and providence. Man is not free from these.

[2] There is freedom from naturalistic determinism. Man is free from this. He is more than a cog in a machine. Man genuinely chooses to do what he wants. His choice come from his volition. They are qualitatively different from the mechanical movements of a clock, for example.

[3] There is moral freedom, or the innate freedom to choose between good an evil. The fallen man does not have this. It is provided only by the grace of God. In other words the natural man always chooses some form of evil and does not have any acts that are genuinely pure in God’s eyes.

It is important to remember that the natural man (the non-Christian) is always free to do what he wants, just not what he ought.

It is also helpful to remember that God predestines man’s free actions. How He does this is a mystery, but is not self-contradictory.

T. More
 
T. More:
In other words, what God does is beyond our judgment.
T. More
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Exactly, and Paul also tells us that it is not our will but God’s. All these answers about God’s grace claim to have judgement but my point is just what you say. "what God does is beyond our judgment"

This is exactly why our wills mean nothing. Only God’s will is done. When we say “thy will be done”. this is not a request - this is an acknowledgement.

Our so called free will only operates within God’s will and for His purpose. Ultimately we have no will apart from God. That’s why sin and all man does is futile. Our concept of free will is dangerously misunderstood. We have no free will apart from God. Even if we “reject” grace as some put it - that is not our will. We are actually doing God’s will and are suiting His purpose. Pharaoh was suiting God’s purpose. The “joke” was on Pharaoh.

If we think we can reject God’s grace by our will - the “joke” is on us. This is the wisdom and Fatherhod of Almighty God.

Whatever you or any do - I most assure you it is ultimately God’s will and if you think your will compares to God’s and can resist God - then you misunderstand free will.

In fact, I think that’s the whole point of why we should give up completely our concept of free will and hand ourselves over to God because it’s all working for the Father of wisdom anyway - so don’t bother. God awakens those whom He chooses even to this fact.

Greg
 
The freedom of faith

[160](javascript:openWindow(‘cr/160.htm’)😉 To be human, "man’s response to God by faith must be free, and. . . therefore nobody is to be forced to embrace the faith against his will. The act of faith is of its very nature a free act."39 "God calls men to serve him in spirit and in truth. Consequently they are bound to him in conscience,** but not coerced**. . . This fact received its fullest manifestation in Christ Jesus."40 Indeed, Christ invited people to faith and conversion, but never coerced them. "For he bore witness to the truth but refused to use force to impose it on those who spoke against it. His kingdom. . . grows by the love with which Christ, lifted up on the cross, draws men to himself."41
 
T.A.Stobie:
Greg, please try to read bible verses in context. You appear to have been given a list written by someone who want to narrowly quote verses and not consider them in the full context of how they are written. This is not a Catholic view on how to interpret the bible.
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I understand that. I am attempting to deepen the concept of free will so that people don’t mistakenly think they have a will apart from God’s. I found those Scriptures myself. Saint Paul makes it clear that it is not our will but God’s.

What could be more clear than this?

Thank You,
Greg
 
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Greg_McPherran:
From what I see in Scripture, we really don’t have free will.
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Not a single passage quoted above says that we have no free will. Plenty say we do:

God laments that the Israelites have rejected him, time and time again, despite this grace:

“Jerusalem, Jerusalem, who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, the way a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were unwilling”. Mt. 23:37.

“If anyone is willing to do His will, he will know of the teaching, whether it is of God or whether I speak from Myself.” John 7:17.

God gives us freedom; where there is freedom, there is God:

“Now the Lord is the Spirit, and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty.” 2 Cor. 3:17.

God gives us the freedom to call upon Him, and there are rewards for those who do (and why offer or give a reward where no chice deserving of reward was made?):

“For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek; for the same Lord is Lord of all, abounding in riches for all who call on Him;” Romans 10:12.

God gave us the ability to choose him, and we are free to reject him:

“Go and call upon the gods which you have chosen: let them deliver you in the time of distress.” Judges 10:14

God gives us the ability to see Him, but we can close our eyes:

“And Josue said to the people: You are witnesses, that you yourselves have chosen you the Lord to serve him. And they answered: We are witnesses.” Joshua 24:22

God holds us accountable for our choices and rewards good choices:

“And God said to Solomon: Because this choice hath pleased thy heart, and thou hast not asked riches, and wealth, and glory, nor the lives of them that hate thee, nor many days of life: but hast asked wisdom and knowledge, to be able to judge my people, over which I have made thee king…” 2 Chronicles 1:11

And punishes bad choices:

“The shew of their countenance hath answered them: and they have proclaimed abroad their sin as Sodom, and they have not hid it: woe to their souls, for evils are rendered to them.” Isaiah 3:9.

God gives us knowledge of Him, but we are free to ignore that knowledge:

“He shall eat butter and honey, that he may know to refuse the evil, and to choose the good.” Isaiah 7:15

God gives us knowledge of Him, but we are free to ignore that knowledge:

“And that you may have knowledge to discern between holy and unholy, between unclean and clean.” Leviticus 10:10.

God directs our hearts to him, but we are free to turn away.

"Let our hearts also be perfect with the Lord our God, that we may walk in his statutes, and keep his commandments, as at this day. "1 Kings 8:61

God give us path to follow Him, but we can choose to take a different path:

“Because my people have forgotten me, sacrificing in vain, and stumbling in their ways, in ancient paths, to walk by them in a way not trodden.” Jeremiah 18:15

There are hundreds of places in the bible with similar passages.
 
*Hello,

Romans 9:16*

So it depends not upon a person’s will or exertion, but upon God.

That’s not free will.

Greg
**
 
The more I read this, the more I’m convinced that Greg was given a list of bible verses taken out of context to prove a concept that is certainly as unbiblical as it is uncatholic, and for whatever reason he’s chosen to believe it rather than 2,000 years of revelation. Whatever. We provide the guy with a superabundance of proof to the contrary, and all he does his harp on his list of verses.

Greg, you can say what you want, but saying it does not make it so.

If Greg wants to feel that he is manipulated and that his love for God comes not from within (as assisted by God’s grace), but his wholly the product of God’s whim, then let him be happy with it. As Isaiah said, “Listen, O house of David! Is it not enough for you to weary men, must you also weary my God?”

Peace. Out.
 
Greg_McPherran said:
*Hello,

Romans 9:16*

So it depends not upon a person’s will or exertion, but upon God.

That’s not free will.

Greg
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That’s not a refutation of free will. It’s simply stating that *the choice * *itself * is not possible without God’s grace.

And stop it with the bold green text. It’s annoying.
 
The Barrister:
The more I read this, the more I’m convinced that Greg was given a list of bible verses taken out of context to prove a concept that is certainly as unbiblical as it is uncatholic, and for whatever reason he’s chosen to believe it rather than 2,000 years of revelation.

Greg, you can say what you want, but saying it does not make it so.
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I am a faithful Catholic and was given no list of Scriptures. I found these Scriptures myself.

Please explain Romans 9:16 to me: So it depends not upon a person’s will or exertion, but upon God.
**
Thank You
 
The Barrister:
It’s simply stating that *the choice **itself *is not possible without God’s grace.
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And I am saying that the choice itself to even accept God’s grace is also God’s grace.

Therefore, we are clay as Paul puts it. And if God indeed holds us responsible (as Paul predicts our question) then that is God’s decision but it is no indication of our own free will.

If God chooses to withold sufficient grace then that also has no indication of our free will. It is all God’s will.

Do you think that as the universe and our lives unfold, that everything we do, what happens, and who goes to heaven, is not all and ultimately God’s will?

That’s the lie Satan told to Adam and Eve isn’t it - that they can act as God with their own wills?

Try to see more deeply what I am saying before you conclude what I am saying and brush me off as a surface thinker. 🙂

Greg
 
Everything we do, sin etc. is going to work to God’s ultimate purpose by His will and power.

It is God’s gift to awaken us to this fact. This fact is itself a grace.
 
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Greg_McPherran:
I am a faithful Catholic and was given no list of Scriptures. I found these Scriptures myself.

Please explain Romans 9:16 to me: So it depends not upon a person’s will or exertion, but upon God.

Thank You
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If you are a faithful Catholic then you will include in your reasoning Sacred Scripture, Tradition and Church Teaching. This has been hashed out centuries ago.
 
Greg: I think you are right that there are some senses in which man’s will is not free. That does not entail that there no senses in which man’s will is free.

God’s eternal decrees (including decrees about whom will receive mercy or hardness) do not depend on man’s will, for example (I think that is the point of the Roman’s 9 passage). Further, man can do nothing contrary to God’s decrees or electing power. However, that does not mean that man does not freely do and want to do whatever God has decreed. They work together. God decrees what man will freely do. There is no contradiction in that, however difficult it is to understand.

T. More
 
T.A.Stobie:
Even the Blessed Mother could have chosen to say no when God asked her to become the Mother of Jesus.
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She was immaculately conceived, how could she have chosen wrongly?
 
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Greg_McPherran:
I am a faithful Catholic and was given no list of Scriptures. I found these Scriptures myself.

Please explain Romans 9:16 to me: So it depends not upon a person’s will or exertion, but upon God.
**
Thank You
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This is a typical Protestant way of approaching the problem. That’s fine for a Protestant, but it is not for a Catholic. You need to read this in context with the entire Bible. See, for example, 1 Tim 2:3-4 “This is good and pleasing to God our savior, who wills everyone to be saved and to come to knowledge of the truth.” and II Pet. 3-9:
“His divine power has bestowed on us everything that makes for life and devotion, through the knowledge of him who called us by his own glory and power. Through these, he has bestowed on us the precious and very great promises, so that through them you **may ** come to share in the divinenature, after escaping from the corruption that is in the world because of evil desire. For this very reason, make every effort to supplement your faith with virtue, virtue with knowledge, knowledge with self-control, self-control with endurance, endurance with devotion, devotion with mutual affection, mutual affection with love. If these are yours and increase in abundance, they will keep you from being idle or unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. Anyone who lacks them is blind and shortsighted, forgetful of the cleansing of his past sins.”

Apparently, it is God’s will that ALL be saved, yet we know that not all ARE saved. What’s the difference?

Since Paul tells us the first part of the equation, it’s only fair to ask him about the second. So St. Paul, if God wills everyone to be get to heaven, why is it that not everyone is actually saved? Paul tells us it is US conforming to God’s will:

“I urge you therefore, brothers, by the mercies of God, to offer your bodies as a living sacrifice, holy and pleasing to God, your spiritual worship. Do not conform yourselves to this age but be transformed by the renewal of your mind, that you may discern what is the will of God, what is good and pleasing and perfect.” Romans 12:1-2.
 
If we do not have free will then what is justice dependant on. In my understanding the divine justice meted out at death has everything to do with our free will, that is what choices we made during our life. If we do not have free will how can justice take place. One could merely argue I was forced to do this sin or we could blame God for our sins (ie. I am not responsible).

We can only be judged if the choices are made are truly ours. The way I understand it at death we see our actions as God sees them, without the constraint of time. We see the graces God has given and what we did with those graces.

I do not see how God could make a judgement on us if we do not have a total free will. If not free will then what does God base his judgement on?
 
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Greg_McPherran:
She was immaculately conceived, how could she have chosen wrongly?
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Mary submitted to the will of God: "Mary said, “Behold, I am the handmaid of the Lord. May it be done to me according to your word.”

You’re not really Catholic, are you?
 
T. More:
Greg: I think you are right that there are some senses in which man’s will is not free. That does not entail that there no senses in which man’s will is free.

God’s eternal decrees (including decrees about whom will receive mercy or hardness) do not depend on man’s will, for example (I think that is the point of the Roman’s 9 passage). Further, man can do nothing contrary to God’s decrees or electing power. However, that does not mean that man does not freely do and want to do whatever God has decreed. They work together. God decrees what man will freely do. There is no contradiction in that, however difficult it is to understand.

T. More
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Thank you.

If you look at Romans 9:15-17 the context appears clear that Romans 9:16 directly addresses the concept of free will.

Consider the heart and depth of what I am saying. What forces are at work in our will apart from grace? Randomness, original sin?

Is a merciful God going to leave the salvation of His creatures to randomness of will?

Original sin? Is the devil Adam and Eve’s fault? Could not God have given them enough grace to resist the Devil? Of course God could and our expression “Oh happy fault…” even confirms this.

So what I am saying is that one one level what appears to be free will is ultimately all part of God’s plan and purpose. And all that unfolds in the universe, heaven, and earth (even what we call sin) are all part of God’s plan.

I am still trying to see where I am wrong especially in light of Romans 9:16.

Even the answers that refer to God’s grace only confirm my belief. For if God gives us grace and we still choose wrongly then what is this wrong choice based on? I have yet to get an answer from anyone. I am getting jumping to conclusions, accusations that I have some list of scriptures, but no answer to this question. You have been reasonable.

Greg
 
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