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Greg_McPherran
Guest
Then what is the *root *cause for a wrong choice?
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Greg_McPherran
Guest
Thank You.
OK. So if we are predestined then we really don’t have free will -true?
The article is very interesing and apparently thinking and I will read more.
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itsjustdave1988
Guest
**
Is there any basis or reason for their wrong choice?
You’d have to ask Eve. It seems evident to me that Eve didn’t just toss a coin. It seems instead that she substituted her imperfect knowledge of right and wrong for the more perfect knowledge of God. Then, after deceiving herself (with the help of the serpant) into thinking she knew better than God, she acted toward an imperfect temporal good instead of keeping her will aligned with the eternal good (God). I wonder if she enjoyed that fruit. I doubt in retrospect she concluded that it was worth it, don’t you? But I’m certain her choice was not random, as there doesn’t seem to be any evidence that it was simply random.
Is there any basis or reason for their wrong choice?
You’d have to ask Eve. It seems evident to me that Eve didn’t just toss a coin. It seems instead that she substituted her imperfect knowledge of right and wrong for the more perfect knowledge of God. Then, after deceiving herself (with the help of the serpant) into thinking she knew better than God, she acted toward an imperfect temporal good instead of keeping her will aligned with the eternal good (God). I wonder if she enjoyed that fruit. I doubt in retrospect she concluded that it was worth it, don’t you? But I’m certain her choice was not random, as there doesn’t seem to be any evidence that it was simply random.
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itsjustdave1988
Guest
Not true.
Even in both Thomism and Molinism, predestination and free will are asserted. I can cut and paste from the texts I’ve already provided, or you can take the effort to study the background material first. Which will it be?
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T.More
Guest
I agree that we are not “ultimately in control of our destiny.” Man is not ultimate. To me this corresponds to the category I mentioned earlier - is man free from God’s eternal decrees and God’s providence.
I think your posts go beyond that, though, and suggest that man does not use volition. Man does will his own actions and makes authentic choices. He is not a cog in a machine. This is consistent with the view that God is ultimate and that man’s will does not violate God’s decrees.
As I said before, God decrees what men will freely do.
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T.A.Stobie_SFO
Guest
Now you asking a new question. We started on do we have free will or not and everyone has been answer this one. Now you want to go to another question.
And yes, we focused on the main part of your first question about free will and not you final remark “It seems random.”
Look at catechism paragraph #1730, 1731, 1732, 1744 for the more narrow question. #1731 tells us that freedom is the power to made decisions roots in reason and will. This is not randomness, you brain does not toss a coin inside and give you a random result. Rather it selects it choice based on what it wants. Unfortunately, some people choose to oppose God’s will and do evil because of some appeal to them. Our reason is developed over time, by the people we interact with and the decisions we make. Sometimes our wills choose to go after something that looks pleasing immediately rather than do what it right long term and not be as pleased short term.
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Greg_McPherran
Guest
In this case if she had imperfect knowedge then she lacked the grace of perfect knowledge - again God’s will.
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T.More
Guest
Perhaps it may be helpful also to distinguish between ultimate causes and proximate causes. This is a distinction made in law and has historically been made in theology.
God is in some sense the ultimate cause of all. If he had not created us we would obviously not be doing anything at all. Yet, God works through secondary causes. These secondary causes may also be thought of as “proximate causes” - a legal term.
Anyway, God ultimately decreed that Mr. X would be saved (or anything else really). He also decreed how Mr. X would be saved (such as through the preaching of the gospel and the exercise of Mr. X’s will).
It does not follow that because there is an ultimate cause in back of everything that proximate or secondary causes become meaningless, like you suggest.
God is in some sense the ultimate cause of all. If he had not created us we would obviously not be doing anything at all. Yet, God works through secondary causes. These secondary causes may also be thought of as “proximate causes” - a legal term.
Anyway, God ultimately decreed that Mr. X would be saved (or anything else really). He also decreed how Mr. X would be saved (such as through the preaching of the gospel and the exercise of Mr. X’s will).
It does not follow that because there is an ultimate cause in back of everything that proximate or secondary causes become meaningless, like you suggest.
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T.A.Stobie_SFO
Guest
Greg, if anyone is granted the grace of perfect knowledge before they fully, completely, and inrevocably accept God in totally, they would be denied the gift of free will. It is God’s will that we have free will, but we do with our free will is not up to God, but rather up to us.
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itsjustdave1988
Guest
You are correct in stating that Eve lacked perfect knowledge. So did angels prior to their fall. And yes, this was in accord with God’s will. You’ve wandered quite a bit off the point, though.
God creates us according to his will. He made the mountains just as they are according to his will. He made the angels and humans as rational beings, unlike the animals. Humans and angels he made with free will, unlike animals. Yet neither angels and humans were made with perfect knowledge. Why? I dunno. If you want to eradicate all the mystery from our holy religion, you’re going to be disappointed.
However, what has been revealed ought to be reflected upon.
After you’re done reading James Akin’s article, read Dave Armstrong’s article on Catholic Predestination, here:
64.233.167.104/search?q=cache:jSDj7mGqvLcJ:ic.net/~erasmus/RAZ120.HTM+predestination+reprobate+Ludwig+ott+dave+armstrong&hl=en
I don’t think you will like the Catholic Encyclopedia links just yet, as they are very scholastic and not written at a very poplular level such as the Akin and Armstrong articles.
God creates us according to his will. He made the mountains just as they are according to his will. He made the angels and humans as rational beings, unlike the animals. Humans and angels he made with free will, unlike animals. Yet neither angels and humans were made with perfect knowledge. Why? I dunno. If you want to eradicate all the mystery from our holy religion, you’re going to be disappointed.
However, what has been revealed ought to be reflected upon.
After you’re done reading James Akin’s article, read Dave Armstrong’s article on Catholic Predestination, here:
64.233.167.104/search?q=cache:jSDj7mGqvLcJ:ic.net/~erasmus/RAZ120.HTM+predestination+reprobate+Ludwig+ott+dave+armstrong&hl=en
I don’t think you will like the Catholic Encyclopedia links just yet, as they are very scholastic and not written at a very poplular level such as the Akin and Armstrong articles.
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Greg_McPherran
Guest
Thank You,
T.A.Stobie:
T.A.Stobie:
Again I refer to the **root **reason. Why would evil appeal to someone? For every reason I seek the root reason. Why? I have already answered this same thing to a list of reasons why people sin: selfishness, pride, etc. I stll ask why? Why are some selfish, others not. Why are some prideful - others not? Whatever reason you give, I ask what is the root reason?
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Greg_McPherran
Guest
Thanks Dave - good thoughts.
itsjustdave1988:
Are we also agreed that predestination means we have no free will?
Even your response to this question will be God’s will and work to His purpose. You have no power at all of your own.
Greg
What I am saying is that Paul says that there is no mystery beyond God’s will and that all is indeed God’s will.
Are we also agreed that predestination means we have no free will?
Even your response to this question will be God’s will and work to His purpose. You have no power at all of your own.
Greg
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itsjustdave1988
Guest
Greg,
Let me give you an analogy to consider with regard to the necessity of grace as well as the necessity of man’s agency in receiving that grace.
In the OT, God gave his people manna. They did nothing to deserve the manna, so manna can be thought of as a gratuitous gift, aka. grace. However, how did God give this gift? He placed it into a field and required his people to collect it in a specific way. He asked that they not collect it on the Sabbath, but to collect twice the amount on the day prior to the Sabbath. If they disobeyed, it turned to worms.
Now, God could have easily poofed the manna directly into the bellies of his people if his sole intent was to just feed them. But he did not. He seemed to have another purpose, other than merely feeding them. This shows to me that God has a purpose that goes beyond making little robots out of us. He will not force his gifts into us. Although he does not require our deservedness to receive his gifts, he does require our agency. If the people of God disobeyed God in collecting the manna, the gift given was not efficacious towards its purpose–it turned to worms and did not feed the people.
I believe this is the same with salvific grace. After the fall, mankind lost the gift of grace as part of the punishment of original sin. Consequently, human generation will not produce infused grace within the human soul. We are not born with Original Justice. We must be born again or born from above. This requires a direct intervention by God. God can intervene at any time he so chooses. However, God promises to intervene for us, infusing our soul with grace, during the Sacrament of Baptism. So, we baptize.
God requires our agency, even if he does not require our deservedness. No infant deserves salvific grace. It is a gratuitous gift. No adult deserves grace either. However, adults also requires repentance along with baptism (infants don’t require repentance as there’s no personal sin to repent from).
If the people of God failed to collect the manna in accord with God’s will, the people didn’t get fed. If Christians fail to follow God’s will, they do not receive God’s grace. In fact, mortal sin is so completely incompatible with God’s grace that we no longer possess it after committing such a sin, until we confess our sin and do penance through the Sacrament of Penance.
To me, it’s not random at all. It’s quite orderly. We don’t deserve grace, but we can either accept it or reject it by our free will.
Let me give you an analogy to consider with regard to the necessity of grace as well as the necessity of man’s agency in receiving that grace.
In the OT, God gave his people manna. They did nothing to deserve the manna, so manna can be thought of as a gratuitous gift, aka. grace. However, how did God give this gift? He placed it into a field and required his people to collect it in a specific way. He asked that they not collect it on the Sabbath, but to collect twice the amount on the day prior to the Sabbath. If they disobeyed, it turned to worms.
Now, God could have easily poofed the manna directly into the bellies of his people if his sole intent was to just feed them. But he did not. He seemed to have another purpose, other than merely feeding them. This shows to me that God has a purpose that goes beyond making little robots out of us. He will not force his gifts into us. Although he does not require our deservedness to receive his gifts, he does require our agency. If the people of God disobeyed God in collecting the manna, the gift given was not efficacious towards its purpose–it turned to worms and did not feed the people.
I believe this is the same with salvific grace. After the fall, mankind lost the gift of grace as part of the punishment of original sin. Consequently, human generation will not produce infused grace within the human soul. We are not born with Original Justice. We must be born again or born from above. This requires a direct intervention by God. God can intervene at any time he so chooses. However, God promises to intervene for us, infusing our soul with grace, during the Sacrament of Baptism. So, we baptize.
God requires our agency, even if he does not require our deservedness. No infant deserves salvific grace. It is a gratuitous gift. No adult deserves grace either. However, adults also requires repentance along with baptism (infants don’t require repentance as there’s no personal sin to repent from).
If the people of God failed to collect the manna in accord with God’s will, the people didn’t get fed. If Christians fail to follow God’s will, they do not receive God’s grace. In fact, mortal sin is so completely incompatible with God’s grace that we no longer possess it after committing such a sin, until we confess our sin and do penance through the Sacrament of Penance.
To me, it’s not random at all. It’s quite orderly. We don’t deserve grace, but we can either accept it or reject it by our free will.
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Greg_McPherran
Guest
cin.org/users/james/files/tulip.htm
From this article I see that are free to believe positive predestination - that indeed it is not our will to choose God but only His.
The article also makes another distincition - that God does not force us to choose evil but rather leaves to our evil state from original sin. This is how I understand it - clarification welcome.
So then apparently we indeed have no free will to attain heaven and it is only God’s decision.
Apparently a Catholic is approved by the Church to believe that.
All we can hope for is to be chosen but it is really not in our hands.
This is what I thought - thank you! This mystery itself must be a grace I would think!
I still think that Romans 9:22 does not seem to agree with Trent’s anathema on predestination to evil (although predestination to good was accepted). Was this anathema infallibly spoken?
Any clarification welcome!
Thank You!
From this article I see that are free to believe positive predestination - that indeed it is not our will to choose God but only His.
The article also makes another distincition - that God does not force us to choose evil but rather leaves to our evil state from original sin. This is how I understand it - clarification welcome.
So then apparently we indeed have no free will to attain heaven and it is only God’s decision.
Apparently a Catholic is approved by the Church to believe that.
All we can hope for is to be chosen but it is really not in our hands.
This is what I thought - thank you! This mystery itself must be a grace I would think!
I still think that Romans 9:22 does not seem to agree with Trent’s anathema on predestination to evil (although predestination to good was accepted). Was this anathema infallibly spoken?
Any clarification welcome!
Thank You!
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Greg_McPherran
Guest
I am also reading the other article! Fascinating! Absolutely fascinating!
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Greg_McPherran
Guest
64.233.167.104/search?q=cache:jSDj7mGqvLcJ:ic.net/~erasmus/RAZ120.HTM+predestination+reprobate+Ludwig+ott+dave+armstrong&hl=en
OK. If we are predestined to heaven, this ineed is beyond our control - i.e. is God’s will.
Now, what do these mean?
“The reality of Reprobation is not formally defined, but it is the general teaching of the Church.”
“Like the Resolve of Predestination the Divine Resolve of Reprobation is immutable, but, without special revelation, its incidence is unknown to men.”
Does this mean that the possibility of predestination to hell is still an open question in Catholic theology?
OK. If we are predestined to heaven, this ineed is beyond our control - i.e. is God’s will.
Now, what do these mean?
“The reality of Reprobation is not formally defined, but it is the general teaching of the Church.”
“Like the Resolve of Predestination the Divine Resolve of Reprobation is immutable, but, without special revelation, its incidence is unknown to men.”
Does this mean that the possibility of predestination to hell is still an open question in Catholic theology?
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Greg_McPherran
Guest
Even to accept grace requires grace and that is in line with the accepted doctrine of predestination. Even if you accept grace, that is God’s grace that you accepted it.- it’s God’s will not yours. If it were your will then predestination would have no meaning.
“Thy will be done” is not a request - it’s an admission of light into the soul and this istself is God’s grace.
We are in darkness on our way to hell. God chooses who He wants to lead out of darkness by His light. If you respond to God, that is not your will because you cannot respond without grace to begin with.
If God does not choose to lead you to light then you end up in hell. It’s not our free will at all - it’s God’s. Even our so-called cooperation with God is indeed His will and grace - again predestination confirms this.
Greg
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ncgolf
Guest
So God creates some people more inclined to evil than good. So what. Paul does not say the every vessel of wrath is condemned eternally. I think you assume that the vessel is condemned. Both the noble and wrathful vessel will be subjected to judgement. Paul is saying all kinds of people are created and in the end we all must submit to God’s mercy and judgement. You don’t think God knows He has given certain people a tougher road in life. To trust in God’s mercy is to as Paul says is to not question God and his ways.
By your statements then even the nobley created object has no free will, so it follows then no one has free will. Is this what you meant?
It just seems to me you are ready to throw up your hands and say its not all my fault. You will tell God … you knew I was going to sin so its more your fault and not me. I do not understand how one could not take some responsibility for one’s actions. It is easy and somewhat appealing to look for an scapegoat. In your case it is God.
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buffalo
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Odds.
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itsjustdave1988
Guest
Not directly. People are more inclined to evil than to good not because of their human nature, not because of something that God created within them, but because of the lack of supernatural grace. They lack the catalyst that better equips them to choose the good.
God creates good. My understanding is that the human nature that I have is the same as Adam and Eve. The natural gifts of our first parents were passed on without change to humanity, by human generation.
What is meant by “fallen” nature? In addition to natural gifts, Adam and Eve were given preternatural and supernatural gifts. In other words, their natural gifts were intrinsically super-charged with additional gifts. The supernatural grace they were given gave them an advantage compared to the rest of humanity with regard to choosing good. Think of supernatural grace as an intrinsic catalyst in your soul that helps your intellect and will choose good rather than evil. However, it is not irresistible, as Scripture plainly proves. When Adam and Eve sinned, they lost the preternatural and supernatural gifts for themselves and for their progeny, but they maintained their natural gifts, passing those natural gifts (which are good, yet not sanctified) to all of humanity.
Adam and Eve were created in a state of Original Justice. We would have been too, except for their sin, as I understand it. Yet, even in their state of Original Justice, they had the ability to choose to disobey God. That is what we mean by free will. Just because one is justified and made rigteous by God’s sanctifying grace infused into their soul, one can still choose evil. They may have good natural gifts, super-charged with grace that works as an instrinsic catalyst that better equips them to choose good, but they are still free to choose what they imperfectly perceive to be good, but is really evil, an “appearant” good to them, but an objectively speaking, and evil in God’s eyes.
Greg,
Let me read through what you’ve written and get back to you. Initially, I think your question is more philosophical, in that you want to know why someone chooses evil, given that they are free to either choose good or evil. I believe Socrates tackles that question in Plato’s *Republic. *People always choose the *appearant *good. Unfortunately, the *appearant *good is not always the objective good.
God says to Cain that he needs to master sin. God does not expect us to do that which is impossible. Even Cain could have chosen to act in accordance with the antecedant grace that God gave to him (antecedant grace differs from supernatural grace). God gives everyone sufficient grace for eternal salvation. So, if we do not attain salvation, it is always because of our own fault.
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