Still Seek Answer: Free Will

[Greg_McPherran]

The Barrister:

Mary submitted to the will of God: "Mary said, “Behold, I am the handmaid of the Lord. May it be done to me according to your word.”

Are you saying her immaculate conception had nothing to do with her choice?

 

[buffalo]

see post #44

 

[Greg_McPherran]

The freedom of faith

but not coerced

This just goes back to my original question. That is: “Then, what are our choices based on - randomness?”

That was my original question to begin with.

 

[Greg_McPherran]

ncgolf:

If we do not have free will then what is justice dependant on. In my understanding the divine justice meted out at death has everything to do with our free will, that is what choices we made during our life. If we do not have free will how can justice take place. One could merely argue I was forced to do this sin or we could blame God for our sins (ie. I am not responsible).

We can only be judged if the choices are made are truly ours. The way I understand it at death we see our actions as God sees them, without the constraint of time. We see the graces God has given and what we did with those graces.

I do not see how God could make a judgement on us if we do not have a total free will. If not free will then what does God base his judgement on?

I see what you are saying however, contrast what you are saying to what Paul says in Romans 9:

What then are we to say? Is there injustice on the part of God? Of course not! For he says to Moses: “I will show mercy to whom I will, I will take pity on whom I will.” So it depends not upon a person’s will or exertion, but upon God, who shows mercy. For the scripture says to Pharaoh, “This is why I have raised you up, to show my power through you that my name may be proclaimed throughout the earth.” Consequently, he has mercy upon whom he wills, and he hardens whom he wills. You will say to me then, "Why (then) does he still find fault? For who can oppose his will?" But who indeed are you, a human being, to talk back to God? Will what is made say to its maker,"Why have you created me so?" Or does not the potter have a right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for a noble purpose and another for an ignoble one? What if God, wishing to show his wrath and make known his power, has endured with much patience the vessels of wrath made for destruction?

A vessel of wrath made for destruction does not have free will. As I keep saying it’s all God’s will and it all works to His purpose.

All Paul is saying is that we have no right to question God if He chooses to make some for good and others for vessels of wrath.

Paul is saying we have no right to question God about this apparrent absence of free will. If anything Paul is speaking directly opposite to free will and is clarifying other Scriptures that even the choices we make are God’s will.

That’s what I see. It seems spoken loud and clear.

Greg

 

[T.More]

Greg: I still think you are confusing different types of freedom. Perhaps it would help if you tell us your understanding of what the term “free will” means. People use the term in different ways.

 

[T.A.Stobie_SFO]

Read the Catechism of the Catholic Church #1730-1748

Paragraph 5. Heaven and Earth

1730 God created man a rational being, conferring on him the dignity of a person who can initiate and control his own actions. "God willed that man should be ‘left in the hand of his own counsel,’ so that he might of his own accord seek his Creator and freely attain his full and blessed perfection by cleaving to him."Man is rational and therefore like God; he is created with free will and is master over his acts.I. Freedom and Responsibility

1731 Freedom is the power, rooted in reason and will, to act or not to act, to do this or that, and so to perform deliberate actions on one’s own responsibility. By free will one shapes one’s own life. Human freedom is a force for growth and maturity in truth and goodness; it attains its perfection when directed toward God, our beatitude.

1732 As long as freedom has not bound itself definitively to its ultimate good which is God, there is the possibility of choosing between good and evil, and thus of growing in perfection or of failing and sinning. This freedom characterizes properly human acts. It is the basis of praise or blame, merit or reproach.

1733 The more one does what is good, the freer one becomes. There is no true freedom except in the service of what is good and just. The choice to disobey and do evil is an abuse of freedom and leads to “the slavery of sin.”

1734 Freedom makes man responsible for his acts to the extent that they are voluntary. Progress in virtue, knowledge of the good, and ascesis enhance the mastery of the will over its acts.

1735 Imputability and responsibility for an action can be diminished or even nullified by ignorance, inadvertence, duress, fear, habit, inordinate attachments, and other psychological or social factors.****

 

[Greg_McPherran]

T. More:

Greg: I still think you are confusing different types of freedom. Perhaps it would help if you tell us your understanding of what the term “free will” means. People use the term in different ways.

My previous understanding and the impression I get from others is that ultimately we are in control of our destiny. Before you go off on this which I will discuss futher please address my recent points.

Thank You - enjoying the converstion in Him!

 

[T.A.Stobie_SFO]

1736 Every act directly willed is imputable to its author:

Thus the Lord asked Eve after the sin in the garden: "What is this that you have done?"29 He asked Cain the same question.30 The prophet Nathan questioned David in the same way after he committed adultery with the wife of Uriah and had him murdered.31

An action can be indirectly voluntary when it results from negligence regarding something one should have known or done: for example, an accident arising from ignorance of traffic laws.

1737 An effect can be tolerated without being willed by its agent; for instance, a mother’s exhaustion from tending her sick child. A bad effect is not imputable if it was not willed either as an end or as a means of an action, e.g., a death a person incurs in aiding someone in danger. For a bad effect to be imputable it must be foreseeable and the agent must have the possibility of avoiding it, as in the case of manslaughter caused by a drunken driver.

1738 Freedom is exercised in relationships between human beings. Every human person, created in the image of God, has the natural right to be recognized as a free and responsible being. All owe to each other this duty of respect. The right to the exercise of freedom, especially in moral and religious matters, is an inalienable requirement of the dignity of the human person. This right must be recognized and protected by civil authority within the limits of the common good and public order.32II. Human Freedom in the Economy of Salvation

1739 Freedom and sin. Man’s freedom is limited and fallible. In fact, man failed. He freely sinned. By refusing God’s plan of love, he deceived himself and became a slave to sin. This first alienation engendered a multitude of others. From its outset, human history attests the wretchedness and oppression born of the human heart in consequence of the abuse of freedom.

1740 Threats to freedom. The exercise of freedom does not imply a right to say or do everything. It is false to maintain that man, “the subject of this freedom,” is "an individual who is fully self-sufficient and whose finality is the satisfaction of his own interests in the enjoyment of earthly goods."33 Moreover, the economic, social, political, and cultural conditions that are needed for a just exercise of freedom are too often disregarded or violated. Such situations of blindness and injustice injure the moral life and involve the strong as well as the weak in the temptation to sin against charity. By deviating from the moral law man violates his own freedom, becomes imprisoned within himself, disrupts neighborly fellowship, and rebels against divine truth.

 

[T.More]

I do not see how God could make a judgement on us if we do not have a total free will. If not free will then what does God base his judgement on?

It is helpful to know that this question was asked in Paul’s time and directly addressed by Paul. Here is how Paul raises the question in 9:19:

One of you will say to me: “Then why does God still blame us? For who resists his will?”

This is the substanec of your concern. I think it is important to remember that whatever our understanding of election, it should raise this question. A view of election and free will that does not raise this question does not jive with Paul’s teaching.

Now, Paul’s answer (vss. 20 ff.) is instructive:

But who are you, O man, to talk back to God? "Shall what is formed say to him who formed it, ‘Why did you make me like this?’ " 21Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for noble purposes and some for common use?

The answer to the question is not philsophical. It is not “this preserves justice” or “this is the best of all possible worlds” or common explanations like that. Rather, it is a bare appeal to authority. We as people do not have the right to judge God, which is what we do if we say that He is arbitrary, wrong, or something else when he elects people to hardness.

So, the doctrine of election should naturally raise the question “how is God just” and the answer is an appeal to His authority.

T. More

 

[T.A.Stobie_SFO]

1741 Liberation and salvation. By his glorious Cross Christ has won salvation for all men. He redeemed them from the sin that held them in bondage. "For freedom Christ has set us free."34 In him we have communion with the "truth that makes us free."35 The Holy Spirit has been given to us and, as the Apostle teaches, "Where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is freedom."36 Already we glory in the "liberty of the children of God."37

1742 Freedom and grace. The grace of Christ is not in the slightest way a rival of our freedom when this freedom accords with the sense of the true and the good that God has put in the human heart. On the contrary, as Christian experience attests especially in prayer, the more docile we are to the promptings of grace, the more we grow in inner freedom and confidence during trials, such as those we face in the pressures and constraints of the outer world. By the working of grace the Holy Spirit educates us in spiritual freedom in order to make us free collaborators in his work in the Church and in the world:

Almighty and merciful God,

in your goodness take away from us all that is harmful,
so that, made ready both in mind and body,
we may freely accomplish your will.38

IN BRIEF

1743 “God willed that man should be left in the hand of his own counsel (cf. Sir 15:14), so that he might of his own accord seek his creator and freely attain his full and blessed perfection by cleaving to him” (GS 17 § 1).

1744 Freedom is the power to act or not to act, and so to perform deliberate acts of one’s own. Freedom attains perfection in its acts when directed toward God, the sovereign Good.

1745 Freedom characterizes properly human acts. It makes the human being responsible for acts of which he is the voluntary agent. His deliberate acts properly belong to him.

1746 The imputability or responsibility for an action can be diminished or nullified by ignorance, duress, fear, and other psychological or social factors.

1747 The right to the exercise of freedom, especially in religious and moral matters, is an inalienable requirement of the dignity of man. But the exercise of freedom does not entail the putative right to say or do anything.

1748 “For freedom Christ has set us free” (Gal 5:1).

(P.S. I did reference this many posts ago, but it has become necessary to post it here as well. I apologize for the length of the three quotes.)

 

[Greg_McPherran]

Hello Thomas,
T.A.Stobie:

Read the Catechism of the Catholic Church #1730-1748

There is no true freedom except in the service of what is good and just.

Yes, this leans toward what I am saying. What I am also saying is that all that happens is in the service of what is good and just because God’s will is always ultimately done. This is seen in Romans 9.

Therefore it is blindess to this truth that leads man into error. However, this blindess is also indeed God’s will and is the same blindness of Adam and Eve. “Oh happy fault.” “Vessels created for wrath”.

 

[Greg_McPherran]

Catechism 1730: God willed that man should be ‘left in the hand of his own counsel,’

Romans 9:20-22: But who indeed are you, a human being, to talk back to God? Will what is made say to its maker,“Why have you created me so?” Or does not the potter have a right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for a noble purpose and another for an ignoble one? What if God, wishing to show his wrath and make known his power, has endured with much patience the** vessels of wrath made for destruction**?

There is an apparrent contradiction between the Catechism and Scripture. Is Saint Paul wrong? *

**If indeed we have free will and we reject God’s grace then what is this choice based on - randomness? **This is my original question.

Thank You*

 

[itsjustdave1988]

Greg,

Forgive me if I don’t understand everything my “church” is doing a very bad job educating me.

Are you seeking to understand the teachings of the Catholic Church, or are you seeking to question them? If the latter, I don’t mind a good argument. If the former, I suggest the following…

*On Grace and Free Will *by St. Augustine
newadvent.org/fathers/1510.htm

I also suggest the following articles from the Catholic Encyclopedia:

Predestinarianism
Predestination
Evil
Thomism
Molinism
Free Will
Grace

You can also take a course from Catholic Distance University (www.cdu.edu), as I have, to increase your understanding of Catholic teaching on this matter. The one I’m taking now which addresses this issue is “God, Man, and the Universe.”

I like Peter Kreeft’s explanations as well. One can be found here:

The Problem of Evil by Peter Kreeft
peterkreeft.com/topics/evil.htm

There are many ways in which your Church seeks to educate you on this topic. But it’s gonna take some effort on your part as well.

 

[Greg_McPherran]

itsjustdave1988:

Greg,
There are many ways in which your Church seeks to educate you on this topic. But it’s gonna take some effort on your part as well.

That’s fair but if somone can answer this, I would appreciate it:

**If indeed we have free will and we reject God’s grace then what is this choice based on - randomness? **This is my original question.

Also, what is Romans 9 saying?

Perhaps I am educating others to the depths of the truth since I accept fully, Jesus Christ, the Catholic Church, the Holy Scriptures, and the authority of the magisterium.

Who is to say that I cannot philosophize as well as Kreeft? I am an educated Catholic. I seek to know the living God and to overcome the illusion of hope in the flesh.

Greg

 

[T.A.Stobie_SFO]

Greg_McPherran:

What I am also saying is that all that happens is in the service of what is good and just because God’s will is always ultimately done. This is seen in Romans 9.

Therefore it is blindess to this truth that leads man into error. However, this blindess is also indeed God’s will and is the same blindness of Adam and Eve. “Oh happy fault.” “Vessels created for wrath”.

Remember the difference between freedom and free will. Free will is the ability to choose to do what it right (and therefore the ability also to choose to do what is not right.)

Does God will that over 1 Billion babies be slaughtered by abortion in the world? No. He lets it happen because we (collectively) choose it.

Can people choose to be blind to truth? Yes, they can be more attracted to their pleasure than to truth. Is this God’s doing? No. It is the people’s choices usely with both good (name removed by moderator)ut and bad (name removed by moderator)ut (from those who wish to lead astray).

Do God take advantage of bad situations to turn them to good? Yes, as much as we let Him.

God desires none to go to hell, but we can choose to live without God (away from Him, he still sustains our existence) and thus choose Hell.

**But read the whole passage and comment on the whole. **

 

[Greg_McPherran]

T.A.Stobie:

Remember the difference between freedom and free will. Free will is the ability to choose to do what it right (and therefore the ability also to choose to do what is not right.)

Does God will that over 1 Billion babies be slaughtered by abortion in the world? No. He lets it happen because we (collectively) choose it.

Can people choose to be blind to truth? Yes, they can be more attracted to their pleasure than to truth. Is this God’s doing? No. It is the people’s choices usely with both good (name removed by moderator)ut and bad (name removed by moderator)ut (from those who wish to lead astray).

Do God take advantage of bad situations to turn them to good? Yes, as much as we let Him.

God desires none to go to hell, but we can choose to live without God (away from Him, he still sustains our existence) and thus choose Hell.

**But read the whole passage and comment on the whole. **

OK. All of what you are saying contradicts Romans 9:22

What if God, wishing to show his wrath and make known his power, has endured with much patience the vessels of wrath made for destruction?

I would say based on this that many abortionists for example could well be vessels of wrath made for destruction.

Not to mention my dear friend that no one has answered my original question that I restate as this to address current arguments:

**If indeed we have free will and we reject God’s grace then what is this choice based on - randomness? **This is my original question.

I have yet an answer for this question. St. Paul answers it well for me in Romans 9. That is that all is God’s will.

When we say: “thy will be done” I think it is a laugh that this is a request that the Almighty Father’s will be done. Rather it is a submission and an acknowledegment that His is will is the only will that is ever done. At any rate I still seek an answer:

**If indeed we have free will and we reject God’s grace then what is this choice based on - randomness? **This is my original question.

Thank You,
Greg

 

[itsjustdave1988]

Greg,

**If indeed we have free will and we reject God’s grace then what is this choice based on - randomness? **This is my original question.

I don’t know about you, but my choices are not random. Why do you think that if one chooses good instead of evil (or evil instead of good, for that matter), that their choice is random? I think you’ve started with an incorrect premise here. The choices people make, even of very wicked people, are not normally random.

Adam and Eve were completely infused with supernatural grace. Unlike like us, they did not suffer from concupiscience. Yet they chose sin. This was a worse sin than any of ours, in my opinion, because they sinned with greater gifts given to them, with their eyes wide open. Why? God gave the gift of free will, because love is meaningless without it. And free will insists that human acts are done freely. We can choose to follow God’s will or not. Even after the fall, that choice still exists, although without supernatural grace, we certainly have more of a tendancy to choose evil.

 

[buffalo]

Heads for God, Tails against. That would be random.

 

[Greg_McPherran]

Hi Dave!

itsjustdave1988:

Greg,

The choices people make, even of very wicked people, are not normally random.

Adam and Eve were completely infused with supernatural grace. Unlike like us, they did not suffer from concupiscience. Yet they chose sin. This was a worse sin than any of ours, in my opinion, because they sinned with greater gifts given to them, with their eyes wide open. Why? God gave the gift of free will, because love is meaningless without it. And free will insists that human acts are done freely. We can choose to follow God’s will or not. Even after the fall, that choice still exists, although without supernatural grace, we certainly have more of a tendancy to choose evil.

Truly very interesting about Adam and Eve. They were completely infused with supernatural grace yet they chose wrongly.

Is there any basis or reason for their wrong choice?

Thank You!

 

[itsjustdave1988]

Your question is answered in at least two ways, according to Catholic tradition: Molinism and Thomism.

Thomists assert unconditional predestination (much as does St. Augustine).

Molinists assert conditional predestination (named after St. Luis de Molina).

The Catholic Church allows each of these schools of thought to speculate as to the “how” of predesitnation.

Here a short article you should read, then if you have any questions, then ask away.

A Tiptoe Through the TULIP by James Akin
cin.org/users/james/files/tulip.htm