Still Seek Answer: Free Will

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ncgolf:
It just seems to me you are ready to throw up your hands and say its not all my fault. You will tell God … you knew I was going to sin so its more your fault and not me. I do not understand how one could not take some responsibility for one’s actions. It is easy and somewhat appealing to look for an scapegoat. In your case it is God.
On the contrary, our knowledge that all is God’s will makes us fully aware of His sovreignty and therefore we “tremble” realizing that we have no power compared to God’s and in fact seek further to unite with His plan because we know we cannot escape His justice. His justice includes that fact that His will is always done and all works to His glory. Adam and Eve thought they could escape or be like God. Our salvation is to realize that we cannot escape God’s justice and that His will and only His will is ever done. Our consciousness of this is part of our salvation. Jesus makes us conscious that we are working with God and good luck to you if you think your sin can defeat His purpose because your sin is part of God’s forseen playing out of the universe and whether you go to heaven or hell, it all works to God’s plan and glory.

I welcome (name removed by moderator)ut to my thinking.

Greg
 
Catholic Theology admits that we do not have a full explanation of free will.

newadvent.org/cathen/14698b.htm

The Thomistic School is distinguished from other schools of theology chiefly by its doctrines on the difficult questions relating to [God’s (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/06608a.htm) action on the free will of man, God’s foreknowledge, grace, and predestination. In the articles on these subjects will be found an exposition of the different theories advanced by the different schools in their effort to explain these mysteries, for such they are in reality. As to the value of these theories the following points should be borne in mind:
  • ***No theory has as yet been proposed which avoids all difficulties and solves all doubts; ***
I think that St. Paul explains what I also believe. That is, that all is God’s will and our “free will” works within God’s divine plan so that even though we make a “free” choice, predestination says that our choices are preordained such that we really don’t have free will the way we may think.

In fact, it is our admittance that all is God’s will and submission to His will, that is key to our salvation.

Greg
 
Even to accept grace requires grace
True. But there’s not just one kind of grace. There’s created grace and uncreated grace.

Uncreated Grace - God’s uncreates self-revelation gratuitously to us (i.e., Holy Spirit)

Created Grace - the gifts of the Holy Spirit

For example, God gave a message to Cain when he spoke directly to him, telling him that he must master sin. This was undeserved grace, a gratuitous gift from God. This was* not* supernatural infusion of sanctifying grace into Cain’s soul (created grace), but was an uncreated message from God himself to Cain. Some Catholic authors call this message, antecedant grace. It prompt us to holiness, but does not in itself make us holy.

Cain could have responded in the positive to God’s message. He did not. He instead chose to sin. When God’s people choose to positively respond to his antecedant grace, God chooses to bless his people. The ultimate blessing is sanctifying grace, which without it, we cannot attain eternal life.

There are various ways in which Catholic tradition has explained predestination, free will, and the distribution of grace. Let me look through my course material and perhaps I can summarize some of the main theories.
 
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itsjustdave1988:
True. But there’s not just one kind of grace. There’s created grace and uncreated grace.
Oh great! More gobbledygook! :rotfl:

By the way, your posts on predestination proved to me that I wasn’t crazy. Thanks!
 
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itsjustdave1988:
Cain could have responded in the positive to God’s message.
This is where I disagree. Every answer contains the same question.

If Cain did not respond positively then that was because it was part of God’s overall plan for the playing out of the universe.

If you look at the place of the universe and the events of the universe in God’s eternal plan (also considering predestination), nothing happens that ulitimately escapes God’s overall plan including Cain’s sin.

The mystery of why God still holds us accountable is exactly what Paul is referring to in Romans 9. Who are we to question our maker?

This is my proposition.

Greg
 
Greg,
I think that St. Paul explains what I also believe. That is, that all is God’s will and our “free will” works within God’s divine plan so that even though we make a “free” choice, predestination says that our choices are preordained such that we really don’t have free will the way we may think.
The problem with your view is, many parts of Scripture assert free will. You seem dedicated to St. Paul, but there are other parts of Scripture. Proper interpretation demands that your interpretation of St. Paul not conflict with Sacred Scripture as a whole, and Sacred Tradition as described by the Holy Catholic Church.

I suggest that perhaps you need to define what you mean by free will. Both Thomism and Molinism, are accepted theories of Catholicism. ***Any theory that rejects free will is heretical. ***Even if the Church has not satisfactorily defined for you which competing school of thought is to be accepted, the Church is ***certain ***as to what is incorrect.

Quite frankly, your theory seems Protestant. Observe,

From the Catholic Encyclopedia article called “Free Will”:
newadvent.org/cathen/06259a.htm
A leading feature in the teaching of the Reformers of the sixteenth century, especially in the case of Luther and Calvin, was the denial of free will. Picking out from the Scriptures, and particularly from St. Paul, the texts which emphasized the importance and efficacy of grace, the all-ruling providence of God, His decrees of election or predestination, and the feebleness of man, they drew the conclusion that the human will, instead of being master of its own acts, is rigidly predetermined in all its choices throughout life.

… the Council of Trent declared that the free will of man, moved and excited by God, can by its consent co-operate with God, Who excites and invites its action; and that it can thereby dispose and prepare itself to obtain the grace of justification. The will can resist grace if it chooses. It is not like a lifeless thing, which remains purely passive. Weakened and diminished by Adam’s fall, free will is yet not destroyed in the race (Sess. VI, cap. i and v).
Here’s another article you may be interested in by James Akin that describes how Scripture shows that man can cooperate or resist God:

Resisting and Cooperating with God
by James Akin
ewtn.com/library/ANSWERS/COOPERAT.htm
 
Greg,
If Cain did not respond positively then that was because it was part of God’s overall plan for the playing out of the universe.
God has a will of desire and a will of decree . C.S. Lewis makes a great analogy that helps to understand this, I think in his book The Problem of Pain. I offer a paraphrase below:

I have children who do not clean their rooms. It is my will of desire that they have clean rooms. They violate my will by leaving it dirty. I can force them to clean their rooms. However, instead, it is my hope that they come to the conclusion that they should clean their rooms without me having to force them to do it. I want their decision to be out of love for me. If I force them to clean their room, theirs no act of love. There’s just me physically making them clean against their will. I don’t want that. I want their love for me to be such that they, by their own free will, decide to clean their rooms.

So, in the above scenario, I rightly can be described as having two wills. My will of desire is that my children’s room be clean. My will of decree is such that I will allow my children to violate my will of desire.

Same thing with God. God does not positively desire sin. He wants for us to do his will out of love, not by being forced to do it. Otherwise, there would be no love involved at all. So, God allows for us to choose to go against his will of desire, by virture of his will of decree. His will of desire is that we NEVER SIN. His will of decree is that we should have free will to sin or not to sin.

Yes, everything is by the providence of God, even sin. However, one must distinguish between whether sin is part of God’s will of desire, or will of decree. I maintain that sin is part of God’s will of decree, not desire.

Cain violated God’s will of desire (sin). In otherwords, God wanted Cain to not kill Abel. He communicated that Cain must master sin. Yet, God’s will of decree was that He would not FORCE Cain to choose good over evil. If he were to FORCE Cain’s actions, then such a method would make love meaningless. So, God allows sin, but does not desire sin.
 
Hi Dave,

Our posts are out of sync so please read my others also.

I don’t deny free will but I would say that it is probably misunderstood by most Catholics and that this darkness of what free will is, is itself a form of sin in terms of error.

We are so afraid that if we tell people that all is God’s will, they will sin any way figuring “Oh well, I’m not responsible.” On the contrary, our full consciousness that is all is God’s will is exactly the key to being holy to begin with. Our consciousness of this is itself a grace. Once we know this we seek to work with God as a partner rather than trying to escape Him. Adam and Eve tried to “escape”, to bypass God. The “joke” is on them. There is no bypassing God because all you do will work to His eternal plan for the universe anyway.

This is why the Church teaches that we are only free to do good, and all other “freedoms” are an illusion.

Any decision a creature makes is based on a reason beyond that creature. While this may seem to free the creature from culpability, it is the same thing that also means the creature is not God. Only God knows and sees all, that’s why we are to submit to His will to begin with.

So we have no free will in the sense that we really fully know and can choose what we are doing. Our free will only becomes free will when we understand that we can only work with God and not around Him.

Do you see what I mean?

Help me out here with this train of thought - but first try to see what I am saying - Thanks Dave!
 
Oh great! More gobbledygook! :rotfl:
By the way, your posts on predestination proved to me that I wasn’t crazy. Thanks!
Greg, tell the truth now … your not really Catholic are you. You don’t really seem to know much about Catholic teaching and you call Catholic teaching gobbledygook. Why would you pose as a Catholic? If you don’t agree with Catholic teaching, just say so.

If you like to admit your Calvinism, go right ahead. As I said earlier, if it is your intent to understand Catholic teaching, I can help. If it is your intent to argue against Catholic teaching, that’s fine too. Post your thesis and let’s have a go. But don’t pretend you are Catholic, as it is not convincing.
 
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itsjustdave1988:
Greg, tell the truth now … your not really Catholic are you. You don’t really seem to know much about Catholic teaching and you call Catholic teaching gobbledygook. Why would you pose as a Catholic? If you don’t agree with Catholic teaching, just say so.
It was just a joke, Dave. 🙂 I understand this is a serious conversation but I was just trying to have a little humor break. You’re react just like me when you’re serious about something. 🙂 I took what you wrote seriously and responded to it. I await your further thoughts.

And yes, the New Advent Catholic Encyclopedia makes it very clear that the doctrine of free will and predestination is not fully understood. The article also refers to*** God’s action on man’s free will***. You can’t say I am not Catholic when we don’t even have an explanation.

Greg
 
You can’t say I am not Catholic when we don’t even have an explanation.
Keep in mind, we don’t have an explanation of many things, but that doesn’t mean we don’t have condemnations of heretical things.

For example, how is it that the Son is eternally begotten of the Father? We dunno? However, we know He is, and to conclude otherwise is heretical.
 
the Church teaches that we are only free to do good, and all other “freedoms” are an illusion.
I disagree that this is what the Church teaches. I believe St. Thomas Aquinas discussion on free-will is still orthodox Catholic teaching. From St. Thomas’ *Summa Theologica, *I, 83:

Free-will
Does man have free-will?
What is free-will–a power, an act, or a habit?
If it is a power, is it appetitive or cognitive?
If it is appetitive, is it the same power as the will, or distinct?
 
Agreed, and I accept Catholic Theology. But words that appear one way on the surface can be understood differently when seen with more light and truth as we grow closer to God.

I await (and appreciate) your response to my recent posts that have addressed the questions further.

Greg
 
Greg,

I have a meeting to go to. Hopefully I’l have time to post later tonight.
 
The Barrister:
1 Tim 2:3-4 “This is good and pleasing to God our savior, who wills everyone to be saved and to come to knowledge of the truth.” and II Pet. 3-9:
I believe that. Answer this: If God wills that all be saved, then why do we think that some are not saved? If God wills it and some are not saved then God’s will is defeated? How can God’s will be defeated, He is all-powerful?
The Barrister:
II Pet. 3-9:Anyone who lacks them is blind and shortsighted, forgetful of the cleansing of his past sins.
Isn’t it only God’s grace that can overcome blindness and no power that we have. God chooses to give grace as He wills, all is under His will. I am merely acknowledging that God is indeed God and you say I am a Protestant. I reject Protestant error. I have addressed these concepts - please address my other posts.
The Barrister:
Apparently, it is God’s will that ALL be saved, yet we know that not all ARE saved. What’s the difference?
Since Paul tells us the first part of the equation, it’s only fair to ask him about the second. So St. Paul, if God wills everyone to be get to heaven, why is it that not everyone is actually saved? Paul tells us it is US conforming to God’s will:

"I urge you therefore, brothers, by the mercies of God, to offer your bodies as a living sacrifice, holy and pleasing to God, your spiritual worship. Do not conform yourselves to this age but be transformed by the renewal of your mind, that you may discern what is the will of God, what is good and pleasing and perfect."Romans 12:1-2.
Yes this certainly indicates a free choice on our part. Why does Paul speak of a mystery in Romans 9 as to why God holds us responsible?

Thank You,
Greg
 
Catholic doctrine is categorized into degrees or level of theological certainty as follows:

Infallible truths (de fide). - must be assented to by all the faithful as Divinely revealed truth, an authentic part of the deposit of faith. This includes things immediately revealed by God (de fide divina). If the Church, through its infallible teaching authority vouches that the truth is contained in revelation, it is also called Catholic faith (fides catholica). If Truths are defined by solemn judgement of faith (definition) of the Pope or of a General Council, they are “de fide defina”. Truths taught solemnly pronounces, but are formally and universally taught by the body of Catholic bishops in communion with the Pope, they are also infallible (*fides ecclesiastica). ***Failure to assent to de fide dogmas constitute heresy.

**Certain official doctrine, yet less-than-infallible teaching. **all the faithful owe their religious submission of intellect and will to these teachings (religiosum obsequium). They do not have sufficient universal consent such that they can be reasonably judged *fide ecclesiastica. *However, they are not to be considered doubtful, but are in fact are to be believed with certitude and thus are not a matter of free opinion. Yet, “the Instruction on the Ecclesial Vocation of Theologian issued by the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith has addressed this matter. It recognized that theologians (and others) might question not only the form but even the substantive content of some authoritatively proposed magisterial teachings. It held that it is permissible in such instances to withhold assent, to raise questions (and present them to the magisterium), to discuss the issues with other theologians (and be humble enough to accept criticism of one’s own views by them). Theologians (and others) can propose their views as hypotheses to be considered and tested by other theologians and ultimately to be judged by those who have, within the Church, the solemn obligation of settling disputes and speaking the mind of Christ. But it taught one is not giving a true obsequium religiosum if one dissents from magisterial teaching and proposes one’s own position as a position that the faithful are at liberty to follow, substituting it for the teaching of the magisterium.” [3, italics in original, underline added]. Dr. Ott describes this teaching as teaching proximate to faith (sententia fidei proxima), teaching pertaining to faith (sententia ad fidem pertinens), theologically certain (theologice certa), certain teaching (sententia certa), or common teaching (sententia communis). Withholding assent, if in accord with the instruction cited above, is not heretical, but may be considered heterodox.

Free and tolerated opinions.
These theological opinions may be held freely without heresy, and may be considered probable, more probable, well-founded, or pious. These are not the official doctrines of Catholicism. Some opinion may even be weakly founded, yet is tolerated by the Church.

to be continued …
 
Here’s some fundamental Catholic doctrine that may pertain to this topic …

**God has created a good world. (de fide) [1] **

The Council of Florence declared, in the *Decretum pro Jacobitis *(1441), against the Manichaean error: “there is no nature bad in itself, as all nature is so far as it is nature, is good …” D 706 Cf. D 428.

God co-operates immediately in every act of His creatures (Sent. communis.) [2]

This seems to be the doctrine that Greg is emphasizing. It is official Catholic doctrine that is less-than-infallible, to which we owe our religious submission**. The Roman Catechism** teaches (I 2, 22) that “God, by means of a most intrinsic power, impels everything that moves and acts to its movement and activity.” Greg is not crazy by asserting this, but quite orthodox. However, it’s important to understand it in the way the Church teaches it …

Dr. Ott states:
This co-operation of the Causa Prima (God) with the Causae Secundae (creatures) is known as “Concursus Divinus.” The Divine co-operation in the Natural Order is called “Concursus Generalis or Naturalis,” to distinguish it from the special supernatural intervention of God through grace in rational creatures; it is known as “Concursus Physicus,” to distinguish it from a merely moral intervention which drives from some external cause, e.g., a command, advice, a threat, etc.; It is called “Concursus Immediatus” to distinguish it from a merely mediate intervention which is implied in the bestowal and conservation of self-sufficient natural powers ( …); and finally it is called “Concursus Universalis,” in so far as it affects all the activities of all creatures without exception.

God co-operates in the physical act of sin also (…); since the activation of the sensual and spiritual powers of the creature, is a being, and therefore something good. The moral deficiency (i.e. the sin as such), which is associated with the physical act, derives from the free will of the creature who, therefore, alone is guilty. God, in consequence of His infinite perfection, cannot be the cause fo a moral defect. (Cf. S. th. I 49, 2; de malo 3,2)
  1. Dr. Ludwig Ott, *Fundamentals of Catholic Dogma, *Edited in English by James Canon Bastible, D.D., Translated from the German by Patrick Lynch, Ph.D., Fourth Ed., Second English Edition, (Rockford, IL: Tan Books and Publishers, 1960) p.84]
  2. ibid, 88.
  3. William E. May, *Teaching Authority in the Church, Morality, and Dissent, *Catholic.net internet article, undated, accessed on 21 Aug 04, catholic.net/rcc/Periodicals/Dossier/2000-5-6/article2.html; William May is a Professor of Theology at the John Paul II Institute for Marriage and Family in Washington, D.C.
 
… The Mode of the Co-operation …

The co-operation of the Causa Prima (God) and the Causae Secundae (creatures) is not to be conceived as a mechanical working together, but as an organic activity in one another and with one another. Hence it is incorrect to ascribe part of the activity to the Divine Cause and part to the creature. The action as a whole belongs to the Divine as well as to the created cause. **The created cause is subordinated to the Divine, in such a manner, however, that its own causality is not abrogated **(Cf. St. Thomas, De potentia, I, 4 ad 3 …).

In the more exact determination of the mode and manner of the co-operation of the Divine and the created cause in the free action of rational creatures, Thomists and Molinists diverge. …

The Thomists emphasize God’s omni-causality and the ubiguitous dependence of the creatures. Molinsim emphasizes the freedom of th ewill, but seems to weaken the eesntial dependence of the creatures upon God. (Ott, pg. 89)
 
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