STILL struggling with 'wives obey your husbands'

[rwillenborg]

Well there is the heart of his problem, he is afraid of death as to him it marks the end of everything, just one of the many evils rejection of God causes.

You need to approach this in two ways, in the short term try and make a few compromises and in the long term you should become a Catholic and then with the great graces you will receive from that you can also give the Faith to your husband. St. Monica is a good example of how wifes should deal with husbands similar to yours.

You’re right. He sees death as the end of everything, so avoiding it at all costs, including the cost of enjoying TODAY, is definitely part of his world view.
I’m trying to expose him to Catholicism. SOMEHOW…mysteriously, the Reader’s Digest magazine that was on the back of the toilet went away and was replaced by This Rock magazine. Now, how’d that happen? I pray for him. I’m always waiting for him to ask questions and hope I can go off and find the answer.
The kids and I go to Mass every week. And every week I invite him to come with us. I’m always really surprised, I have to be honest here, because I’ll go to wake him up and he says ‘You’re going to Mass today? Now?’ and I’m like ‘Yes, we are going to Mass today, and yes we are going now. Just like I have been for nearly a year.’ Sometimes he goes, most often not. He was baptized Catholic, but now is agnostic/atheist. Interestingly, I was raised agnostic/atheist, and I will be starting RCIA this fall. So, I tell him, I mean, just out of simple respect DON’T GET COMMUNION when he goes to Mass with me. He gets really annoyed at that. I explain the theology behind it, which, even if you don’t believe it, out of simple respect, one should refrain from taking communion if one knows they shouldn’t. I tell him, if you’re gonna take communion, it’s better just to stay home. Honestly.
the kids say gracebefore meals, which is AWESOME because they’re all like ‘Fold your hands daddy’. He’s fine with me raising them Catholic. He just thinks it’s a bunch of nonsense.
So, yeah, I just keep praying…

 

[Advocatus_Fidei]

You’re right. He sees death as the end of everything, so avoiding it at all costs, including the cost of enjoying TODAY, is definitely part of his world view.
I’m trying to expose him to Catholicism. SOMEHOW…mysteriously, the Reader’s Digest magazine that was on the back of the toilet went away and was replaced by This Rock magazine. Now, how’d that happen? I pray for him. I’m always waiting for him to ask questions and hope I can go off and find the answer.
The kids and I go to Mass every week. And every week I invite him to come with us. I’m always really surprised, I have to be honest here, because I’ll go to wake him up and he says ‘You’re going to Mass today? Now?’ and I’m like ‘Yes, we are going to Mass today, and yes we are going now. Just like I have been for nearly a year.’ Sometimes he goes, most often not. He was baptized Catholic, but now is agnostic/atheist. Interestingly, I was raised agnostic/atheist, and I will be starting RCIA this fall. So, I tell him, I mean, just out of simple respect DON’T GET COMMUNION when he goes to Mass with me. He gets really annoyed at that. I explain the theology behind it, which, even if you don’t believe it, out of simple respect, one should refrain from taking communion if one knows they shouldn’t. I tell him, if you’re gonna take communion, it’s better just to stay home. Honestly.
the kids say gracebefore meals, which is AWESOME because they’re all like ‘Fold your hands daddy’. He’s fine with me raising them Catholic. He just thinks it’s a bunch of nonsense.
So, yeah, I just keep praying…

Sounds like your doing great

 

[Cristiano]

My understanding is that wives must submit to their husbands. I have not seen where it says that they have to obey. That is not in Eph 5:22-24. The concept of submission is from the Latin “sub-missio” or to support the mission. The husband mission (Eph 5:25-30) is to love the wife. So the job of the wife is to help the husband to love her as Christ loved the Church. If the husband needs direction in doing what is right then the wife must steer him in the right direction.

Now going back to the practical aspect, this whole survivalist thing is ridiculous. When brought to the extreme where it affects family stability and finances it is immoral. A lot of men, including myself, like to toy with those ideas (e.g. see the emergency kit in my house) but the difference is that we must face reality and put things in perspective. I am afraid that your husband is spending too much time with inappropriate materials and/or people. It looks like he has high level of anxieties and your duty is to help him to move away from them (e.g. find support).

 

[Mrs_Sally]

Well, for starters, I’m not a Catholic, though I find myself agreeing with alot of Catholic theology, which is why I post this here. On that note, I’ve tried to read some non-scripture stuff regarding this particular passage. JPII’s letter to women was very helpful, actually. But, I guess I’m wondering, what does the church say in this type of a situation? Does the church say that if the husband is being unreasonable there is no need for me to obey? I honeslty don’t know. And if so, on what grounds do they say that? That’s really what I’m trying to get at.
His grasp on reality has always been tenuous. I don’t think his grasp has gotten any looser, actually. This is pretty much how he’s always been, just about different things.
the reason he tells me he wants these things is because he knows, deep down, that it’s crazy. And so his sentences end with ‘That’s crazy, isn’t it?’ and I say ‘yes dear. It’s completely nuts’ and he says ‘okay’. So, he knows these are insane thoughts, and he’s not going through with them because I have told him not to, but I wonder, if I were following the teachings of the Bible, should I still be saying no?
Do you see my dilema?

Neither the church nor the Bible expect us to lay down our common sense. Wives are not bound to blind obedience. Christians are not cultists who rob people of their will and ability to think. Your patience and rationality are a good balance for his flights of fancy.

It sounds like your husband is trusting you to help him work through these not so rational thoughts and stay focused on the real world. He is working out a plan to keep his family safe in case of natural disaster or social strife. As his helpmate, you are helping him with that. You should also ensure that he stays healthy by getting him to a Dr. I call my husband “Mr. Doomsayer”, but he is not ready to move out to the country and stock up on gold and guns. Unless he’s ready to homestead (a very difficult life), this plan is not sound at all.

Now, nothing is wrong with having an evacuation plan for leaving the house in an emergency, keeping a supply of shelf-stable food and water, or even having an emergency supply of cash. Nothing is even wrong with owning a gun or 2 (or 8), IF you know how to use them properly and they are stored safely. But it isn’t right to up and move your family, liquidate your assets, and begin eating dried food, all because an earthquake happened a 1000 miles away.

 

[Mrs_Sally]

My understanding is that wives must submit to their husbands. I have not seen where it says that they have to obey. That is not in Eph 5:22-24. The concept of submission is from the Latin “sub-missio” or to support the mission. The husband mission (Eph 5:25-30) is to love the wife. So the job of the wife is to help the husband to love her as Christ loved the Church. If the husband needs direction in doing what is right then the wife must steer him in the right direction.

Now going back to the practical aspect, this whole survivalist thing is ridiculous. When brought to the extreme where it affects family stability and finances it is immoral. A lot of men, including myself, like to toy with those ideas (e.g. see the emergency kit in my house) but the difference is that we must face reality and put things in perspective. I am afraid that your husband is spending too much time with inappropriate materials and/or people. It looks like he has high level of anxieties and your duty is to help him to move away from them (e.g. find support).

Christiano, what a wonderful explanation! You managed to say in 3 sentences what I struggle to say in an entire page of rambling!

 

[Mrs_Sally]

Anxiety. Both durgs and counseling. Counseling was a waste of time. I agree with him. He tried several couselors, and I think he just got MORE anxious.
The drugs he’s tried, he wasn’t too happy with, but that was years ago.
I don’t know that he would be willing to try them again. They also didn’t seem terribly effective, and the side effects made him something of a zombie. It’s possible there are newer drugs out there however, that might help him.

There are newer drugs. This is an area that the medical community has made great strides in. Please try again.

 

[ElisabethM]

I agree, it sounds like you are doing a great job under extremely difficult conditions. Do you think you could talk with the priest at the parish you attend? He might help get rid of the false guilt you are carrying over this.

I also agree here that the word you should focus on is “submit”, not “obey.” And submit carries more the notion of remaining faithful and not telling your husband what to do, allowing him, as he is able and willing, to lead your family. But right now he is not a capable leader so you have to take care of your children.

While you can’t and shouldn’t tell him what to do, you do not have to give your consent or do anything to contribute to his wrong-headed schemes. If he is set on moving north, I wouldn’t bock the door but I and the children would not go. I also would not allow guns in our house, but that’s just my belief about guns–they are far more dangerous to the people in the house than the stray intruder.

I would not play into his nonsensical thinking. Having a hunting rifle and getting food for the family by hunting is not really going to help him address his fear. God is calling him and he doesn’t want to answer–yet! But that’s why God gave you to him.

 

[rwillenborg]

My understanding is that wives must submit to their husbands. I have not seen where it says that they have to obey. That is not in Eph 5:22-24. The concept of submission is from the Latin “sub-missio” or to support the mission. The husband mission (Eph 5:25-30) is to love the wife. So the job of the wife is to help the husband to love her as Christ loved the Church. If the husband needs direction in doing what is right then the wife must steer him in the right direction.

QUOTE]

Thank you for this. This is a really good explanation.

 

[Lucania]

It’s possible there are newer drugs out there however, that might help him.

Yes, there are. Please get him help asap. You would be surprised how the right medication can change his life. And yours ! Anxiety is a horrible disorder to have and to live with, but there are meds that can help manage or decrease those feelings. I will keep you both in my prayers.

 

[proudnifi]

You wrote you aren’t Catholic and are looking for guidance in scripture. That can get tricky since different people have come up with different interpretations - or we might only have one Christian group. The bible can be very confusing, especially when taking out a bit here and a bit there - how does one reconcile an eye for an eye with forgiving your neighbor seventy times seven times?

I mention this because I don’t think you’ll find a particular scripture passage that gives guidance for specific situations. So, it says wives are to be submissive (not obey) and we all know this doesn’t mean to kill one’s children if one’s husband decides they are actually demons. Where does the bible say except if your husband is crazy? I don’t think it says that specifically, but taken as a whole and with the correct understanding, one gets there. As wives, as people of God, we are never asked to give up basic common sense or knowingly do harm; would a loving good God want that?

Sounds like your husband has some mental issues and is aware of it. Thankfully he seems to be willing to ask your opinion, too, when he’s gotten a little too worked up. I think that’s your cue to guide him back to a more reasonable level of concern, which is being the helpmate God intended a wife to be. I think you are doing well. You don’t make fun of him, but show him a middle ground to work with him. I think this is a form of submission - you aren’t dismissing him out of hand, you are seeing that his requests/suggestions are from love of his family, and you are working with him to do what is best for the family. If he is worried about food, you help him stock up in a reasonable way. If he is worried about safety, same idea.

 

[rwillenborg]

You wrote you aren’t Catholic and are looking for guidance in scripture. That can get tricky since different people have come up with different interpretations - or we might only have one Christian group. The bible can be very confusing, especially when taking out a bit here and a bit there - how does one reconcile an eye for an eye with forgiving your neighbor seventy times seven times?

I mention this because I don’t think you’ll find a particular scripture passage that gives guidance for specific situations. So, it says wives are to be submissive (not obey) and we all know this doesn’t mean to kill one’s children if one’s husband decides they are actually demons. Where does the bible say except if your husband is crazy? I don’t think it says that specifically, but taken as a whole and with the correct understanding, one gets there. As wives, as people of God, we are never asked to give up basic common sense or knowingly do harm; would a loving good God want that?

Sounds like your husband has some mental issues and is aware of it. Thankfully he seems to be willing to ask your opinion, too, when he’s gotten a little too worked up. I think that’s your cue to guide him back to a more reasonable level of concern, which is being the helpmate God intended a wife to be. I think you are doing well. You don’t make fun of him, but show him a middle ground to work with him. I think this is a form of submission - you aren’t dismissing him out of hand, you are seeing that his requests/suggestions are from love of his family, and you are working with him to do what is best for the family. If he is worried about food, you help him stock up in a reasonable way. If he is worried about safety, same idea.

This kind of goes to show you how the culture around me has seeped in. Honestly, I’ve read that passage SO many times. I’ve heard it read SO many times, and still, when asked to recall it, I recall the word ‘obey’, and you’re right, it doesn’t say that, it says ‘submit’. And, indeed, the two words have different meanings. But, the people I know who are opposed to the Bible all think it says ‘obey’, and somehow, that’s what stuck in my head, instead of submit.

I mentioned this in another thread, but I have to be honest here, and say I have no idea how ANYBODY could go by Scripture alone. Maybe everyone is just more clever than me, but sheesh, if it was just me and the Bible, I can promise you that I wouldn’t be Christian, that’s for sure.

 

[ac_claire]

My understanding is that wives must submit to their husbands. I have not seen where it says that they have to obey.

Hi Cristiano.

I just found this out a few months ago: the one and only direct biblical reference to wives obeying their husbands (as opposed to submitting) is in Titus 2:5.

“3 The aged women, in like manner, in holy attire, not false accusers, not given to much wine, teaching well: 4 That they may teach the young women to be wise, to love their husbands, to love their children, 5 To be discreet, chaste, sober, having a care of the house, gentle, obedient to their husbands, that the word of God be not blasphemed.”

Personally, I don’t really quibble about the words because I think the concept/definition is pretty much the same whether you’re using obey or submit. Same thing, really IMO.

To the OP, I second the advice you’ve already been given here as to how to deal with your husband. I know a lot of people who share his philosophies. He sounds misled perhaps, mis-directed, but not necessarily insane.

 

[admonsta]

My understanding is that wives must submit to their husbands. I have not seen where it says that they have to obey. That is not in Eph 5:22-24. The concept of submission is from the Latin “sub-missio” or to support the mission. The husband mission (Eph 5:25-30) is to love the wife. So the job of the wife is to help the husband to love her as Christ loved the Church. If the husband needs direction in doing what is right then the wife must steer him in the right direction.

Spot on. Wish I’d said it. I tell my husband exactly why his ideas are ridiculous, or that I agree with him, but ultimately it’s his decision. He often asks me what I think, and I tell him (sometimes a little bluntly). In the vast majority of cases, we come to some kind of agreement. I also tell him what I think we should do, and he agrees or disagrees accordingly. Marriage is a partnership, not an autocracy.

 

[Cristiano]

Hi Cristiano.

I just found this out a few months ago: the one and only direct biblical reference to wives obeying their husbands (as opposed to submitting) is in Titus 2:5.

“3 The aged women, in like manner, in holy attire, not false accusers, not given to much wine, teaching well: 4 That they may teach the young women to be wise, to love their husbands, to love their children, 5 To be discreet, chaste, sober, having a care of the house, gentle, obedient to their husbands, that the word of God be not blasphemed.”

Personally, I don’t really quibble about the words because I think the concept/definition is pretty much the same whether you’re using obey or submit. Same thing, really IMO.

To the OP, I second the advice you’ve already been given here as to how to deal with your husband. I know a lot of people who share his philosophies. He sounds misled perhaps, mis-directed, but not necessarily insane.

When you read the translation “obedient to their husbands” you should be aware that the Clementine Bible says “subditas viris suis”. I do not see the verb “OBEDIO, OBEDIRE, OBEDIVI, OBEDITUS” being used.

I am not saying that the wife should not obey the husband. I am simply saying that the Bible gives us a bigger picture on why things should be done. For example you will find that the wife must be subordinate to the husband, but that does not imply a lower value or less dignity. It is simply an ordinal rank necessary for the good of the family. The husband is not given any power, he is given authority (as in witness to the truth).

My impression that in her case her husband is not a good witness to the truth, but I can be wrong as I have been before.

 

[rwillenborg]

The husband is not given any power, he is given authority (as in witness to the truth).

Could you please expand on this idea a bit? I ask because in reading your posts in this thread, and in others, I have found your observations to be very enlightening and helpful. Maybe I should start a new thread, but I think maybe what I am trying to understand here is how authority comes without power and also how authority relates to witnessing the truth.
Again, I feel like you are getting very close to the heart of the matter, for me, anyway, on this particular issue and like I said, I have read SOOO much exegeiss on this particular passage that my eyes are getting buggy, so if I could put this one to bed, I’d feel much better.
Also, do you study Latin? It sounds like you do.

 

[Cristiano]

Could you please expand on this idea a bit? I ask because in reading your posts in this thread, and in others, I have found your observations to be very enlightening and helpful. Maybe I should start a new thread, but I think maybe what I am trying to understand here is how authority comes without power and also how authority relates to witnessing the truth.
Again, I feel like you are getting very close to the heart of the matter, for me, anyway, on this particular issue and like I said, I have read SOOO much exegeiss on this particular passage that my eyes are getting buggy, so if I could put this one to bed, I’d feel much better.
Also, do you study Latin? It sounds like you do.

Thanks for your kind words. I will start a new thread, but I need to think how to address it. English is my second language and some of my definitions are just coming from the Latin languages. I want to make sure that I will not confuse people too much.

 

[ac_claire]

When you read the translation “obedient to their husbands” you should be aware that the Clementine Bible says “subditas viris suis”. I do not see the verb “OBEDIO, OBEDIRE, OBEDIVI, OBEDITUS” being used.

Huh, ok. I quoted from the Douey-Rheims translation, which I’ve always assumed was pretty authoritative? Or at least a reliable translation.

Curious now. I don’t have access to the Clementine Vulgate. Do you happen to know if the Latin word used for “submit” in Ephesians 5 is the same word (or root word) used for “obedient” in the Titus 2 passage, as you mentioned above?

 

[Advocatus_Fidei]

Huh, ok. I quoted from the Douey-Rheims translation, which I’ve always assumed was pretty authoritative? Or at least a reliable translation.

Curious now. I don’t have access to the Clementine Vulgate. Do you happen to know if the Latin word used for “submit” in Ephesians 5 is the same word (or root word) used for “obedient” in the Titus 2 passage, as you mentioned above?

The two words mean the same thing and are interchangeable despite what some on here claim.

obey = be obedient.
obedient = dutifully complying with the commands or instructions of those in authority
submit = To give in to the authority, power, or desires of another. ie. to obey, to be obedient.

They all mean the same thing, which is why the compilers of the DR were quite happy to use either one.

 

[Cristiano]

The two words mean the same thing and are interchangeable despite what some on here claim.

obey = be obedient.
obedient = dutifully complying with the commands or instructions of those in authority
submit = To give in to the authority, power, or desires of another. ie. to obey, to be obedient.

They all mean the same thing, which is why the compilers of the DR were quite happy to use either one.

So you are saying that two words, with two different etymologies from two different words in the same language of origin, lost completely any differentiation when adopted in English. Quite possible, suspicious to me, but what the heck it is your mother tongue not mine.

My first reaction is still to go to the Latin version to see if there is any difference in meaning. My second step would be to go to the Greek version and to repeat the exercise. I will try the second step but my knowledge of Greek is practically null.

 

[Cristiano]

Huh, ok. I quoted from the Douey-Rheims translation, which I’ve always assumed was pretty authoritative? Or at least a reliable translation.

Curious now. I don’t have access to the Clementine Vulgate. Do you happen to know if the Latin word used for “submit” in Ephesians 5 is the same word (or root word) used for “obedient” in the Titus 2 passage, as you mentioned above?

Yes! it uses the same word. “Mulieres viris suis subditæ sint”

In Greek too they use the same words for both verses.