Stop Complaing about Music in Church.

[paramedicgirl]

Have you ever read this?

That’s a very revealing article. Thanks for posting it.

"A good deal of the music performed in American churches today is simply not fit for the house of God, and ought to be replaced.

Even just playing one sappy song per Mass is like giving sugar to a toddler; it’s only a matter of time before the average individual in the pew will be demanding more and more of the stuff."

 

[b_justb]

Cat:

I was kicked out of the Protestant Church, and it looks like, from the way many of you are responding to me, that I will eventually be kicked out of the Catholic Church, too.

nawwwwwww Any Church that has the Jesuits, the Franciscans, and the Dominicans ALL in communion has room for you, schweetheart

 

[fix]

I
fix, the article you posted–well, I know a church in my city that has been looking for two years to hire a music director/organist. I feel reasonably certain that this man would not get the job, though. There is an attitude of arrogance and disdain, and a lack of caring for fellow Christians. He can try to come to our city to interview, but I think he would be told to march away. We are in the Diocese of Rockford, BTW, one of the most conservative dioceses in the U.S.A.

We read the same article and came to opposing conclusions. Is the author arrogant and disdainful because he does not hold your view?

 

[paramedicgirl]

I see the problem with our popularization of music that has been published in the last forty years as replacing the rich patrimony of sacred music that is our part of our Catholic heritage.

What a shame for a young person to grow up thinking that Marty Haugen is the traditional music of the Catholic church!

 

[fix]

I see the problem with our popularization of music that has been published in the last forty years as replacing the rich patrimony of sacred music that is our part of our Catholic heritage.

What a shame for a young person to grow up thinking that Marty Haugen is the traditional music of the Catholic church!

I think that is part of this issue. The Church has documents that mention things like chant, yet I never hear that at mass. Folks complain about all the syrupy music and then those complaints are dismissed and the “complainers” are deemed the problem.

I really don’t get it. Is not the real problem that much of the current music does not conform to the mind of the Church?

 

[VAC]

Last June the Pope spoke about music in Mass. Here are three paragraphs of the article:

The Pope has demanded an end to electric guitars and modern music in church and a return to traditional choirs. However, the use of guitars and tambourines has irritated the Pope, who loves classical music. “It is possible to modernise holy music,” the Pope said, at a concert conducted by Domenico Bartolucci the director of music at the Sistine Chapel. “But it should not happen outside the traditional path of Gregorian chants or sacred polyphonic choral music.”

he Pope’s supporters argue that the music played during Mass is a vital part of the communion between worshippers and God, and that medieval church music, with the liturgy, creates the correct ambience for perceiving God’s mystery.

Cardinal Ersilio Tonini, the Archbishop of Ravenna, said:“Mass is the presence of Christ and the music adds so much more when the harmony allows the mind to transcend the concrete to the divine.”

Does this make the Pope a “complainer?”

I do not see a direct quote of the pope demanding the removal of electric guitars. I see him not complaining but experssing an opinion of irritation at modern music and a preference for classical music. I do not see that his is making this doctrine or forbidding these instruments in mass.
The church can make other doctrines absolute such as ‘no abortions, not even to save the life of the mother’ , so there is a difference in the pope expressing his human opinion versus making canon law about music at mass.

 

[VociMike]

I do not see a direct quote of the pope demanding the removal of electric guitars. I see him experssing an opinion of irritation and a preference for classical music. I do not see that his is making this doctrine or forbidding these instruments in mass.

As I remember, when this story came out other people also noted that the words quoted did not equate to “no electric guitars”, and there was some question where that particular spin came from.

Along those lines, now that the motu proprio is coming out on the Tridentine Mass, I wonder if this pope will not turn his gaze to the question of sacred music. It is clearly one of his areas of interest.

 

[Brendan]

Brendan,

I think I misread your post, brother, with respect to “Gather Us In.” Because you worded it this way:

No prob, my fault actually, I obviously hit the ‘Enter’ key at an inopprutune time

Actually, I agree with you on that particular hymn, but in general, no.

There are far too many so called ‘hymns’ that are like that. They either place the focus on the congregation, or have areas of question in their lyrics.

And even if the exact point of the doctrine articulated in the song might be debated (such as the Calvinistic points of “Amazing Grace”), why take the chance when there exists such a wealth of thoroughly doctrinally correct works.

And I’m not talking just Chant.

How about “Hail Holy Queen”, “Faith of our Fathers”, “Holy God, We Praise Thy Name”, “To Jesus Christ, our Sovereign King”, or even the Protestant “Joyful, Joyful, we Adore thee” - . No theological questions there at all.

A Hymn should take, as it’s model, the core prayers of our Faith, the "Our Father, the “Hail Mary”, and the “Glory Be”

In each case, the prayer starts off with Praise, there might be a petition later, but Praise is First and Foremost.

That is the purpose of a hymn.

 

[Tantum_ergo]

Thanks for the article, Fix.

Cat, I read the article too. I even wrote about it–and then deleted it before sending just because of the difficulty I foresaw and that Fix has demonstrated; one person reads, hears, sees, experiences something and has a totally different ‘interpretation’. Like Fix, I saw no disdain nor lack of charity. I’d like to think that it was more than simply sharing similar education, experiences etc. that made me think that his view is more ‘correct’ than the opposing view which you, Cat, do represent very well. I’d like to think that we had more in common, and indeed, as I said, there are places for MANY of the hymns out there and there is room for many styles which can still be quite orthodox.

Perhaps we could lay out clearly that finding a particular view correct (or not) does not mean that we are faulting the PERSON who holds an opposing view?

Too often we internalize and personalize things. If a person disagrees with my position on music, I don’t think (unless they refer to me as a snob, cretin, etc. specifically) that these people are judging ME, but merely my opinion on a subject.

But if I were to think that a person expressing an opinion that did not jibe with my own was personally attacking me, uncharitably. . .maybe I would react differently, so again, I try to be careful and to consider why a person might react in a particular way.

Again, I respectfully ask that we keep the labels to a minimum. “Discuss”, not “complain”.

 

[cecilia97]

continued from last post:

I would like to make the following observations about music in the Catholic churches:

1. In most parishes, the musicians are doing the very best they can. I don’t believe that any musician deliberately sets out to choose bad music for Mass and decides to play and sing it badly. We all want to “play our best for Him.” For you to complain about their “lack of talent” or “lack of knowledge about good music” or “bad choices for Mass music” is cruel to these musicians who have volunteered (or are being paid a pittance), and more importantly, it is insulting to God who distributes talents according to HIS will. Don’t be so mean-spirited. Stop complaining. If you can do better, do it.
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2. On the other hand, if YOU can fix it, do so. Do you have money? Then donate it so that the church can get an organ, a choir director, an organist or pianist, etc. A lot of times, the reason for the “deficiencies” in your parish music is lack of the green stuff. Provide it, or start a fund-raising drive to get the money needed.

BRAVA, Cat! The same “rule” applies when complaining about church music as anything else…If you think it should be better, offer to help fix it.

Don’t sing? Neither did half the “singers” in your current church choir before they took the plunge and volunteered.

Don’t have time for rehearsals? Neither does the current choir.

Your time is worth money and you don’t want to work for free? Same for the current choir.

Sadly, there are the folks who come up and complain after Mass, or worse yet, offer to join the choir, try to shake things up, and then leave after they’ve caused mayhem and maybe run off the two best singers and the accompanist, upset that they didn’t immediately get their ideas implemented.

Lack of green stuff gets abig AMEN. The piano I played at my old cathedral parish was so old and in such bad condition it could not hold a tuning for more than a month. Several of the hammers and pads were damaged by humidity. It was missing one pedal. The choir eventually pooled resources and donated a new piano.

The organs at many churches have birds or vermin roosting behind or in the pipes. Anyone who wonders why the beautiful old organ isn’t being put to use should ask if the music minister (if you’re lucky enough to have one) has enough funding for his or her projects.

Prayers for all liturgical musicians!
c

 

[Windmill]

I stopped complaining about the church music and started a men’s Gregorian Chant schola (www.brazoschant.org), and we are enjoying much success. In fours years, we have tripled in size. We are having to turn parishes away for appearances because we are in that much demand. It’s interesting how people will come up to us after we sing a Mass and say things like, “I felt like I was in Heaven!” or “Can I reserve you now for my funeral?” They never say, “And can you be sure and sing 'Let Us Build the City of God?”

The truth of the matter is, we are corporate beings with a soul and body. To deny that matter, our senses, our posture, et al, do not affect our worship is denying our very nature. Of course these things affect our worship - for better or for worse. As muscians, your goal is not to involve everyone, it is to make the visible reality reflect and point to the invisible reality that is occurring at each Mass. God’s sacrifice of His only Son is being represented on the altar of sacrifice so that we sinners can partake in that solemn act of Christ. That’s the invisible reality. Is the music that is being sung at your parish reflecting this?

Three general rules I give people about church music:

1. If you can easily picture a Muppet singing the song, it’s not appropriate for Mass - even if it’s about Jesus.
2. If you have to keep reminding yourself that you are at a solemn sacrifice, then something needs to change.
3. Just because a song is about God doesn’t make it, ipso facto, appropriate for Mass.

 

[VAC]

I stopped complaining about the church music and started a men’s Gregorian Chant schola (www.brazoschant.org), and we are enjoying much success. In fours years, we have tripled in size. We are having to turn parishes away for appearances because we are in that much demand. It’s interesting how people will come up to us after we sing a Mass and say things like, “I felt like I was in Heaven!” or “Can I reserve you now for my funeral?” They never say, “And can you be sure and sing 'Let Us Build the City of God?”

I am very impressed that you chose such a positive way to express your musical opinion:thumbsup: Congrats on your success. One suggestion: put some sound clips on the website.

I mentioned in another thread that positive feedback to the music ministry is appreciated and probably more effective than complaining. No one has ever come up to me after mass and said something like: “It was so nice to hear Latin put back in the mass” or “We really enjoy hearing those traditional hymns.” If I did hear frequent comments such as these, I would be inclined to use more of these songs, rather wait till I was told to play it (ie Latin mass parts for Lent and Advent)
When we get compliments, it’s on modern upbeat songs, or anything with the children singing their own part (such as the Alleluia’s when we sing ‘Seek ye First’ in a round.)
Another way to get a point across to the music ministry is to sing really loud on the songs you like. That definitely encourages me to use a song more often. We enjoy nothing more than a crowd singing with us

 

[jc-servant]

I would like to suggest that Christians stop complaining about the music in their church. Become conscientious objectors in the “Music Wars.”

Nice try Cat, but I believe complainers will be at it until the final trumpet blows. They might not find a brass instrument appropriate for such an important spiritual occasion.

I appreciate your take on this subject.

 

[b_justb]

jc-servant:

… I believe complainers will be at it until the final trumpet blows. They might not find a brass instrument appropriate for such an important spiritual occasion.

Now THAT was funny.

 

[VAC]

Nice try Cat, but I believe complainers will be at it until the final trumpet blows. They might not find a brass instrument appropriate for such an important spiritual occasion.

I appreciate your take on this subject.

That’s a good one!!!

 

[Walking_Home]

Nice try Cat, but I believe complainers will be at it until the final trumpet blows. They might not find a brass instrument appropriate for such an important spiritual occasion.

I appreciate your take on this subject.

---

Until that day comes—what we have —is the mind of the Church–a mind Who has stated–what is proper and holds pride of place.

 

[paramedicgirl]

I am very impressed that you chose such a positive way to express your musical opinion:thumbsup: Congrats on your success. One suggestion: put some sound clips on the website.

I mentioned in another thread that positive feedback to the music ministry is appreciated and probably more effective than complaining. No one has ever come up to me after mass and said something like: “It was so nice to hear Latin put back in the mass” or “We really enjoy hearing those traditional hymns.” If I did hear frequent comments such as these, I would be inclined to use more of these songs, rather wait till I was told to play it (ie Latin mass parts for Lent and Advent)
When we get compliments, it’s on modern upbeat songs, or anything with the children singing their own part (such as the Alleluia’s when we sing ‘Seek ye First’ in a round.)
Another way to get a point across to the music ministry is to sing really loud on the songs you like. That definitely encourages me to use a song more often. We enjoy nothing more than a crowd singing with us

I make sure to genuinely thank the choir on the rare occasions they sing sacred songs that are part of our Catholic heritage. This is positive feedback, and still these songs are few and very far between.

 

[Cat]

" Is the author arrogant and disdainful because he does not hold your view?"

Fix, no, that’s not it at all.

I play piano for a 100 year-old Italian parish. Many of the people in the parish are elderly, definitely pre-Vatican II.

I’ve seen pictures of their choir–60 people at one point, mainly men. The people have told me magnificent stories about a fantastic musical heritage in the parish.

**I’ve been told over and over again by these dear elderly people that they prefer contemporary music in the Mass. **

One elderly gentleman kisses me every week (his wife is right there!) and says thank you for the music.

This is the parish I mentioned that wants to hire a music director (their director quit when he turned 80; he couldn’t walk up the stairs to get into the choir loft).

The pastor of that parish told me that they want a music director who not only knows and loves the “old” music, but also the “new” music.

The impression I received from the article you posted is that if the gentleman who wrote the article were hired, he would come into this parish and toss into the trash all the music that these elderly people dearly love.

He would label their favorite songs “sappy, feminist, confusing, heretical, irreverent, secular humanist.”

Because a friend of mine plays organ for all their funerals, (and there are MANY–once they had 14 in a single week)–I happen to know that at almost every funeral, “On Eagle’s Wings” is played. It has become almost a tradition in that parish.

But the gentleman who wrote the article would tell these dear old people that they can’t be sung to their eternal rest with this “drippingly saccharine” hymn.

The reason the gentleman in this article keeps losing jobs is that he isn’t demonstrating Christian love and charity to the people in the parishes where he is hired to SERVE.

When someone says, “I love that song!” and he says, “That song is 'drippingly saccharine,” an insult has been delivered to the song-lover.

Even though the gentleman means the “music,’ the song-lover doesn’t hear it that way. What he/she hears is, “YOU are a fool becase you actually like (gag) that drippingly saccharine” hymn.”

The other thing that people hear is, “Your priest must be a total numbskull to allow such awful music in the Mass.”

That’s not very nice. Actually, it’s mean and arrogant.

I feel this way when people insult “Gather Us In.” This song made me cry the first time I ever heard it because I thought it was so beautiful, uplifting, cheerful, yet solemn.

My husband and I had been ousted from our Protestant church, and this song made me remember that God wants to “gather us in to His Church.” It made me WANT to become Catholic.

I actually wrote all the words down on a napkin and carried it around with me for weeks and read it as encouragement.

But then I read comments like the one in the article: “We sing the words “gather us in” seven times, extolling the virtues of “we”…”

What this says to me is that I am stupid, undiscerning, self-centered, unspiritual, and musically inept.

I hear the gentleman calling me a fool, even if that is not his intent.

Jesus said that if we call someone a fool, we are in danger of hell-fire.

Another song that I absolutely love is “Here I Am, Lord.” This was the song that was playing at the Rite of Election at our Cathedral. One of my heroes, Bishop Thomas Doran, was waiting at the front of the Cathedral to welcome the thousand of us who were coming into the Church that year, and the whole time, the organist (pipe organ) and Cathedral Choir were playing and singing “Here I Am, Lord.”

According to the gentleman who wrote the article, “Here I Am, Lord” is self-centered, empty, sentimental, no reverence, etc."

Look up Bishop Thomas Doran. You’ll find that he’s one of the CHAMPIONS of correct liturgy in the Mass.

Is HE “self-centered, empty, sentimental, irreverent, etc.” because he allows “Here I Am, Lord” to be sung at the Rite of Election? And is he a fool because the theme song on his weekly radio show is “Gather Us In?”

Fix, the gentleman who wrote that article will never, ever find a parish to serve in until he puts PEOPLE ahead of rules.

Our Lord Jesus Christ never put rules and regulations ahead of people. He even broke the Sabbath to heal. LOVE is the most important thing, not “liturgy.”

The author of the article has to learn that he can’t heap abuse upon people’s beloved music and expect them to support him. He will capture more flies with honey than vinegar. **I’m NOT saying that he should abandon attempts to bring good music to parishes. Good for him!
**

But he has to learn to do it in such a way as to build people up. He won’t get far insulting their music and hence, by proxy, insulting them.

 

[Tantum_ergo]

It is nice to get feedback, but even feedback doesn’t mean something ‘wrong’ is ‘right’.

Cases in point: Just about anything. We have all sorts of ‘positive’ feedback about abortions, divorce/remarriage, same sex unions, etc. but that does not make any of them morally right, no matter how many people ‘love’ to see them.

So just because 10 people, or 20, or even ‘everybody’ in the parish tells you how much they love hearing a given song does not make the song appropriate. The Church is not a democracy and we don’t operate by majority rule.

That being said, I for one do speak up in thanks and appreciation and I would encourage more to do the same. Recently we have added more Latin and more traditional music and so I have certainly been verbally appreciative.

But don’t get me wrong. I will–and I have–found something ‘nice’ to say to people even in the worst scenarios possible (off-key cantors, blatant abuses etc.) because I do separate the ‘sin’ from the “sinner”.

But that doesn’t mean that just because I acknowledged the ‘gusto’ of a group, or spoke of how much work I saw they put into a hymn, that the work or the group was ‘right’ --and unfortunately, a lot of people today as I said earlier tend to personalize things improperly. If they hear a word of appreciation for the MINISTRY they gave, they tend to take it as approval for themselves and as approval for whatever they chose to do. Likewise, if they heard a word of question/concern about the SONG (not they the ministers but the song), they tend to take it as disapproval of THEMSELVES.

And that is where we need to have more education, not just here but in all society. A lot of people do not know how to dialogue anymore; they pick a position, immediately go on the offensive, personalize everything, use loaded language, ‘scattershot’, etc.

 

[Wolseley]

I was kicked out of the Protestant Church, and it looks like, from the way many of you are responding to me, that I will eventually be kicked out of the Catholic Church, too.

Well, that leaves Eastern Orthodox; but be advised: when you show up for services at your local Greek parish, you ain’t gonna hear anything from Glory and Praise.

I think, for many reasons, you’re better off to stay right where you are. Granted, you will hear a lot of bellyaching, but as an old priest I know once told me, “Anywhere you have two Catholics, you’re going to have three conflicting opinions.”

Offer it up for the poor souls in Purgatory. I do.