Stop Complaing about Music in Church.

[VAC]

Brother Hrolf is on a one note samba. Still haven’t got a satisfactory answer for Simon and Garfunkle. in 1969. C’mon all you folks who moan about us old fogeys! Please, I beg you…provide me with some sort of liturgical justification for “Bridge over Troubled Waters” and “Sounds of Silence”. Close to 40 years later, I’m still awaiting this.

I know who S&G are, I like their music, I can play a couple of their songs, but am clueless as to why it would be played at mass.

I taught the CCD kids “They’ll know we are Christians” 2 years ago for First Communion. No one complained and I’m not sure what the problem is with this song.

 

[otjm]

The author is a Catholic priest.

And that makes him an expert on anything he chooses to espouse? There are Catholic priests who are bodreline heretics, too.

Thje fact that he is a Catholic priest makes him no more an expert on this than anyone else, unless you are suggesting a return to clericalism.

 

[otjm]

Not only that, but these lyrics seem to forget that the Mass is a sacrifice. They always portray it as only a meal.

About as much as others want to proclaim it is only a sacrifice.

 

[otjm]

Short answer is No.

There is a lot of stuff the Bishops and Priest do that they have no authority to change or allow.

Granted Church music is no where near the same level as abortion and contraception, priests and bishops only have limited authority when it comes to changes to the Mass and the Liturgy. I’m sorry just cause a Bishop or priest approves doesnt always make it “Okay”.

Either you are on a different page than everyone else here, or you have a document I have never seen. Where, please, does the decision as to what hymns (or songs, I won’t get into that one!) have anything to do with “changes in the Mass”? Please cite the document that limits the Bishop’s ability to select the music for the Mass.

I think there might be something in the GRIM? I know things like the “Clapping Gloria” are considered liturgical abuses. As to exactly where the guidelines are I’m not sure tho.

I have read the GIRM from one end to the other and back again. It isn’t there. The GIRM does not regulate the hymns (or songs - darn, there I go again playing with fire). Choosing one hymn or another is not limited and is not within the scope of “changes in the Mass”.

 

[otjm]

Yes it does. It offers horizontal praise.

and if I ask God to gather us in, that is praising us? sounds like petition to me. Or can’t you tell the difference?

If you are citing the use of the word “us”, or “we”, then you must be criticizing Christ himself, who gave us the “Our” Father… give “us”… “our” daily bread… forgive “us” "our trespasses, as “we” forgive… against “us”… lead “us”… deliver “us”.

Wow! Talk about horizontal!

 

[otjm]

. And then we go back to: “Here I ammmm Looooord, it is I Loooord” for the thousanth time.

Well Heaven help us that we should ever use text from the Old Testament. I mean, how totally unCatholic. How far from the Liturgy that we should want to model ourselves on one of the Prophets.

Maybe you should read that book of ours - you know, the Bible? The one that the Protestants say we are forbidden to read? I’ll let you in on a little secret; the Church doesn’t forbid it.

And maybe if you read a bit of it now and then, you would actually recognize the texts in the songs (darn, there I did it - hymns!) that you so blithely dismiss.

 

[otjm]

OK, all you proponents about us old fogeys complaining. Please explain to me how I had to sing Simon and Garfunkle’s “Bridge over Troubled Waters” and “Sounds of Silence” at my Catholic high school’s graduation Mass in 1969. What is the liturgical significance of these two songs to a Catholic boy’s high school graduation Mass? May, 1969. How many of you even know who Simon and Garfunkle are?

I do. and I graduated before you did, so I can be an old fogey too. But that was 1969 you are complaining about - give me a minute, I think I can do the math - 38 years ago. Are you still draggin that hurt around? Isn’t it about time to let it go? That was 38 years ago, for pete’s sake.

How about “Sons of God, Hear His Holy Word”? Cutting edge 1969 - anyone heard it? Or, “And They’ll Know We Are Christians by Our Love”? Anyone sung that, lately?

Nope. I let those go, too, along with Michael Row the Boat Ashore, and a few others.

Salve Regina? Ave Verum Corpus?

No, but Pange Lingua, yes. and if I hear it to the tune of Tantum Ergo, I think I’ll scream. Much prefer the other.

 

[paramedicgirl]

And that makes him an expert on anything he chooses to espouse? There are Catholic priests who are bodreline heretics, too.

Thje fact that he is a Catholic priest makes him no more an expert on this than anyone else, unless you are suggesting a return to clericalism.

Are you suggesting that your opinions are more expert than his, and that we should disregard his opinions?

 

[paramedicgirl]

and if I ask God to gather us in, that is praising us? sounds like petition to me. Or can’t you tell the difference?

If you are citing the use of the word “us”, or “we”, then you must be criticizing Christ himself, who gave us the “Our” Father… give “us”… “our” daily bread… forgive “us” "our trespasses, as “we” forgive… against “us”… lead “us”… deliver “us”.

Wow! Talk about horizontal!

And who is doing the criticizing???

 

[otjm]

How very strange. I was a kid, an altar boy, and a member of the children’s choir. Funny, I learned Latin and sang chant in a kids choir. But then, it was south Louisiana…I must have grown up Catholic! Whoops! Wow! I grew up Catholic…before Vatican II…nasty secret that.

Yeah, well so did I and it wasn’t until I was in college that I actually learned how to sing Gregorian Chant properly, from a Benedictine monk who actually knew the music. Gregorian chant can be done sing-song fashion just as well as anything else. I love Gregorian chant doen well, and I hate to hear it slaughtered by those who don’t have a clue - which, from what I have heard (as in, listened to), is most. Even the monks at the Trappist Abbey can’t perform chant well any more, or so it would seem from listening to them. But then, with an abbot in his early 50s who is one of the youngets fully professed, what can I say; maybe the new recruits will get it.

 

[otjm]

And who is doing the criticizing???

I was just holding up a mirror, dear.

 

[otjm]

Are you suggesting that your opinions are more expert than his, and that we should disregard his opinions?

No, dear, I am just suggesting that your comment about him being a priest is a non-sequitur.

 

[paramedicgirl]

I was just holding up a mirror, dear.

And you don’t see yourself as judgmental at all??? Interesting…

 

[otjm]

And you don’t see yourself as judgmental at all??? Interesting…

Sweety, if you want to take swings, don’t expect that you won’t get a reaction. Moi? Judgemental? I think the pot is calling the kettle black.

 

[paramedicgirl]

Sweety, if you want to take swings, don’t expect that you won’t get a reaction. Moi? Judgemental? I think the pot is calling the kettle black.

I’m not your sweety and I’m not your dear. Please re read your posts. Maybe you will be able to see animosity and a judgmental attitude in them, because it’s apparent to me.

 

[otjm]

I’m not your sweety and I’m not your dear. Please re read your posts. Maybe you will be able to see animosity and a judgmental attitude in them, because it’s apparent to me.

That’s for sure you’re not my sweety or my dear. I have re-read the posts. Some people simply do not get tongue in cheek comments.

You are most welcome to your opinions about music in church, and you are not particularly veiled as to how you feel. Music, like all art, finds beauty in the beholder. We know how you feel, as you have amply pointed it out.

I have had it up to the gills with the bit about horizontal music. I find those who use that term are generally in a category similar to those who use the term “modernist”; it sounds really good and makes them appear to be very knowledgable to others who know what they don’t like but can’t find a disparaging remark sufficient to castigate and villify whatever it is that they don’t like.

One of these days I am going to take a count of all the hymns which are based on Old and/or New Testament passages. No one ever discusses this; they just swing away at it because it is not Gregorian Chant.

I don’t go to Mass to attend a concert (and having heard a fantastically well trained schola sing one of Palistrina’s Masses, that is what I felt I was doing). I go to Mass to worship, and I presume you do too. If you worship best with Palistrina and Gregorian Chant, super. Go for it. But get off your high horse; others find such things distracting from the Mass.

 

[lak611]

But get off your high horse; others find such things distracting from the Mass.

What about those of us who find the clappy Gloria distracting from the Mass?

 

[paramedicgirl]

That’s for sure you’re not my sweety or my dear. I have re-read the posts. Some people simply do not get tongue in cheek comments.

You are most welcome to your opinions about music in church, and you are not particularly veiled as to how you feel. Music, like all art, finds beauty in the beholder. We know how you feel, as you have amply pointed it out.

I have had it up to the gills with the bit about horizontal music. I find those who use that term are generally in a category similar to those who use the term “modernist”; it sounds really good and makes them appear to be very knowledgable to others who know what they don’t like but can’t find a disparaging remark sufficient to castigate and villify whatever it is that they don’t like.

One of these days I am going to take a count of all the hymns which are based on Old and/or New Testament passages. No one ever discusses this; they just swing away at it because it is not Gregorian Chant.

I don’t go to Mass to attend a concert (and having heard a fantastically well trained schola sing one of Palistrina’s Masses, that is what I felt I was doing). I go to Mass to worship, and I presume you do too. If you worship best with Palistrina and Gregorian Chant, super. Go for it. But get off your high horse; others find such things distracting from the Mass.

Actually, I go to the Novus Ordo Mass, and I frequently get to listen to Lord of the Dance, and Put your Hand in the Hand of the Man from Galilee, where everyone (almost) claps their hands. Oh, and Anthem. So please don’t tell me what I am exposed to.

BTW I won’t be replying to your posts anymore. My ignore list just got a little longer.

 

[Marian_Carroll]

**Folks this thread appears to have gone off course and is now heading in the direction of Tridentine vs. NO arguments.

It is now closed with the reminder that CAF has provided a TC Forum for those who wish to discuss traditional liturgy and practice.

As we have had in the past week two threads on likes and dislikes in music, please let’s take a rest from new threads on the topic for awhile until everyone can separate their commentary from personalized and off topic remarks.

Curently:forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=163848 is still open.

Thanks for your participation and your assistance.**