Stop Complaing about Music in Church.

[Cat]

Fix, the pastor of the Italian parish was appointed by our Bishop, who was appointed by the Pope.

The pastor approves the music.

Does he not have the authority of the Church (Rome) to do so?

Is there a list of forbidden music that includes the songs I mentioned? Who says that these songs are “inappropriate” for the Mass? By what authority do you pronounce that they are inappropriate for a Mass?

Thank you.

 

[whatevergirl]

How bad could the music be? I don’t understand what people mean by ‘bad’ music…is it off key? Do you not like the modern sound…the non-modern sound? What is classifed as ‘bad’ music?

Is Barry Manilow singing at your parishes or something j/k

 

[Cat]

Brendan, please cite your documentation proving that certain songs are not hymns, just songs.

Is there a music professor or textbook where you learned that? Is this something that a particular college or seminary teaches?

I’ve played piano in church for 38 years and worked with dozens of choral directors and voice teachers and I’ve never heard anyone say that. I am curious where you learned this.

Thank you.

 

[VAC]

Is there a list of forbidden music that includes the songs I mentioned? Who says that these songs are “inappropriate” for the Mass? By what authority do you pronounce that they are inappropriate for a Mass?

Thank you.

I am very interested in hearing the answer to this as well.

 

[az_4_faith]

How bad could the music be? I don’t understand what people mean by ‘bad’ music…is it off key? Do you not like the modern sound…the non-modern sound? What is classifed as ‘bad’ music?

Is Barry Manilow singing at your parishes or something j/k

Oh my gosh, that is so funny.

It reminds me of the time when my hubby and I went to Mass in a -ahem- of all places - a casino in Laughlin, Nevada. Kid you not - 4:00p.m. Saturday evening Mass in the upper room of the Riverside Casino (this was about 8-10 years ago.) Whether it was a good idea or not is for another thread . . .

Things went rather uneventfully until the Communion meditation. You know, the time of Mass when the musicians may do a soft hymn while everyone is silently offering thanks for Holy Communion and Father has finished at the altar and is sitting quietly.

Well, the woman who had led the singing and played the piano announced to all that she would be singing a special song for Communion meditation because it was one of Father’s favorites. She then proceeded to sing Garth Brooks’ “The River”. Holy Columbus, like Roseanne Rosanadana used to say “I thought I was gonna die!” Talk about a song that had no business at a Catholic Mass. Not that the lyrics are immoral or anything, but it had nothing to do with worship or Mass or the Catholic faith or nothin’! Seriously, it was like a lounge act. My hubby and I just shook our heads.

I’ll never forget that one. I’m not sure anyone’s topped it yet.

 

[Joysong]

I have to say I’ve never actually seen this claimed. I’ve seen it claimed that it was claimed, but I’ve never heard somebody say that only Gregorian chant should be used, and that everything else was garbage. Surely it is not a prevalent view, if it exists at all. In fact, I expect that the vast majority of people who want more adherence to the Church dictates on music would shoot down such a claim in an instant. I know I would, and I have heard others in the “traditional music” camp explicitly deny that such is the position of the Church.

Then I guess you never met Walking_ Home. While she never stated that everything else was garbage (your insertion), she is quick to quote her uncompromising view as in this post:

I desire, in accordance with the request advanced by the Synod Fathers, that Gregorian chant be suitably esteemed and employed as the chant proper to the Roman liturgy.

What I think may be the difficulty in this thread with so many traditionalists taking a hard line is that they celebrate a different rite, the old Mass. Understandably, there will be major differences. To justify verbal censures of these differences as celebrated in the Novus Ordo, very often these quotes are selectively pulled to point fingers of guilt or wrong-doing.

The US Bishops have a document for the music in the ordinary rite which clearly gives the permissions that these traditionalists would deny.

I note some very poignant sections:

1. The diversity of people present at a parish liturgy gives rise to a further problem. Can the same parish liturgy be an authentic expression for a grade school girl, her college.age brother, their married sister with her young family, their parents and grandparents? Can it satisfy the theologically and musically educated along with those lacking in training? Can it please those who seek a more informal style of celebration? The planning team must consider the general makeup of the total community.

**Each Christian must keep in mind that to live and worship in community often demands a personal sacrifice. All must be willing to share likes and dislikes with others whose ideas and experiences may be quite unlike their own. **

1. In the meantime, however, the words of St. Augustine should not be forgotten: “Do not allow yourselves to be offended by the imperfect while you strive for the perfect.”

1. The former distinction between the ordinary and proper parts of the Mass with regard to musical settings and distribution of roles is no longer retained.** For this reason the musical settings of the past are usually not helpful models for composing truly liturgical pieces today. **

Conclusion

1. There is vital interest today in the Mass as prayer, and in this understanding of the Mass lies a principle of synthesis which is essential to good liturgical worship. When all strive with one accord to make the Mass a prayer, a sharing and celebration of Faith, the result is unity. Styles of music, choices of instruments, forms of celebration—all converge in a single purpose: that men and women of faith may proclaim and share that faith in prayer and Christ may grow among us all.

I believe Cat in her OP was beautifully echoing St. Augustine in #27. Words of a saint, spoken by a current prophet!

Incidentally, Cat …

The document lists in several places the word “song” … not “hymn.” Brendan is not correct in saying that song is inappropriate.

 

[Joysong]

Brendan:

I have yet to see proof that such an event happened with anything approaching regularity in the Tridentine Mass, or even in the Latin NO.

You are HOW OLD? Brendan? Of course you would not have seen this. Ask Cardinal Arinze and myself, who both have seen it. **

 

[LJN21]

Fix, the pastor of the Italian parish was appointed by our Bishop, who was appointed by the Pope.

The pastor approves the music.

Does he not have the authority of the Church (Rome) to do so?

Short answer is No.

There is a lot of stuff the Bishops and Priest do that they have no authority to change or allow.

Just like no matter how much a bishop or priest says other wise, abortion and contraception are still conndemed by the Church. They have no authority to tell anyone otherwise, if they do they are acting outside the authority granted to them.

Granted Church music is no where near the same level as abortion and contraception, priests and bishops only have limited authority when it comes to changes to the Mass and the Liturgy. I’m sorry just cause a Bishop or priest approves doesnt always make it “Okay”.

Is there a list of forbidden music that includes the songs I mentioned? Who says that these songs are “inappropriate” for the Mass? By what authority do you pronounce that they are inappropriate for a Mass?

Thank you.

I think there might be something in the GRIM? I know things like the “Clapping Gloria” are considered liturgical abuses. As to exactly where the guidelines are I’m not sure tho.

 

[Walking_Home]

Then I guess you never met Walking_ Home. While she never stated that everything else was garbage (your insertion), she is quick to quote her uncompromising view as in this post:
Quote:
I desire, in accordance with the request advanced by the Synod Fathers, that Gregorian chant be suitably esteemed and employed as the chant proper to the Roman liturgy.

What I think may be the difficulty in this thread with so many traditionalists taking a hard line is that they celebrate a different rite, the old Mass. Understandably, there will be major differences. To justify verbal censures of these differences as celebrated in the Novus Ordo, very often these quotes are selectively pulled to point fingers of guilt or wrong-doing.

The US Bishops have a document for the music in the ordinary rite which clearly gives the permissions that these traditionalists would deny.

I note some very poignant sections:

I believe Cat in her OP was beautifully echoing St. Augustine in #27. Words of a saint, spoken by a current prophet!

Incidentally, Cat …

The document lists in several places the word “song” … not “hymn.” Brendan is not correct in saying that song is inappropriate.

---

Joysong—if you are going to quote me—quote me correctly. The following is what I actually posted—not just the little snipet you provided. What you are attributing to me as an “uncompromising” view–is in truth our own Pope’s words. If you are anyone else has a problem with this—your problem is with the Pope.

Pope Benedict XVI
vatican.va/holy_father/be…Ars_celebrandi

Liturgical song

1. Generic improvisation or the introduction of musical genres which fail to respect the meaning of the liturgy should be avoided. As an element of the liturgy, song should be well integrated into the overall celebration (128). Consequently everything – texts, music, execution – ought to correspond to the meaning of the mystery being celebrated, the structure of the rite and the liturgical seasons (129). Finally, while respecting various styles and different and highly praiseworthy traditions, I desire, in accordance with the request advanced by the Synod Fathers, that Gregorian chant be suitably esteemed and employed (130) as the chant proper to the Roman liturgy (131).

 

[VociMike]

Then I guess you never met Walking_ Home. While she never stated that everything else was garbage (your insertion), she is quick to quote her uncompromising view as in this post:

I desire, in accordance with the request advanced by the Synod Fathers, that Gregorian chant be suitably esteemed and employed as the chant proper to the Roman liturgy.

In the first place, “everything else was garbage” was most certainly not my insertion. Go back and read the post I was responding to.

Regarding your comment, this is a perfect example of my point. Walking_Home is simply quoting, verbatim, our Holy Father in Sacramentum Caritatis. He and the Synod Fathers are simply repeating the call of Vatican II that Gregorian chant have pride of place in the Roman liturgy. “Suitably esteemed and employed as the song proper to the Roman liturgy” cannot possibly be understood as a demand for Gregorian chant and nothing else. Not convinced? In the very same document just a few words earlier, the Holy Father says
“Finally, while respecting various styles and different and highly praiseworthy traditions, I desire, in accordance with the request advanced by the Synod Fathers, that Gregorian chant be suitably esteemed and employed as the song proper to the Roman liturgy.”

So Walking_Home simply quoted the Holy Father (and by extension, the Synod Fathers as well), and the quote was in no way a demand for Gregorian chant and nothing else, but you claim that the Holy Father’s words are a demand for chant and nothing else. This is exactly the misunderstanding and misrepresentation I was speaking about.

 

[Cat]

Joysong, that is such an encouraging post! Thank you.

After my family was kicked out of the Protestant church in 2001, my two daughters stopped attending any church. They didn’t trust “church” anymore.

A year ago, my older daughter started attending Mass at the very ancient Cathedral in her city. After several months of soul-searching, which included a Dominican retreat and a “spiritual director,” she has decided to become Catholic. She is starting RCIA this fall and called us last week to ask us to be her sponsors.

But my young daughter–I’m trying not to cry as I type this–still doesn’t attend church, even though she is a student at a Catholic university. She goes once in a while with her extremely Catholic roommates, and she will cantor at Catholic churches. She has the voice of an angel (sings in opera workshops at her college, has taken voice lessons for years, runner-up in vocal competitions, and most importantly, loves to sing).

She still doesn’t trust church. So she doesn’t go for any reason other than to be with her family or friends, or to sing.

What I’m afraid of after reading some of these posts, is that one day–oh, Blessed Virgin, pray that this never happens!–one day she will be cantoring in a Catholic Church, and some self-appointed liturgical minister will approach her afterward and tell her that her singing was “sensual” or that the song she sang was “self-centered” or “saccharinely sentimental”–

–And then my dear daughter will forever turn her back on the Church, on any Church. Jesus, forgive her and have mercy on her!

Critic, are you willing to take THAT sin to your judgement? Are you willing to tell Jesus that you drove a young woman out of the Church because you told her that she was doing “bad” Mass music?

Do all of you who are making these awful comments have any idea how HURTFUL these comments are? Do you? I don’t think you do or you wouldn’t be posting these comments.

Not one of you has posted any justification for your comments that certain songs/hymns are inappropriate for Mass. You quote various documents, but none of these documents specify WHICH songs and styles and composers are inappropriate.

As far as I can see, the job of determining which music is appropriate for Mass has been given BY ROME to the pastors and bishops, not the laity. The pastors may hire or appoint a “Liturgical Director” or “Music Minister,” and this person then has been delegated the responsibility of choosing appropriate Mass music.

What part of this have I mistated? If the bishop and pastors don’t have the authority to select music for your Mass, then WHO DOES?

I feel like I’ve been beaten with sticks and clubs today. If my Lord suffered it, I guess I shouldn’t shun such a beating.

After reading some of the comments on this Board, I am almost ready to quit playing piano in Catholic churches!

If you know ANYTHING about music, you know that musicians, like all artists, have extremely fragile egos. This is especially true of amateur musicians. One comment to my face like some of these comments would be enough to make me cry for a week. I would probably shake so hard that I wouldn’t be able to play piano for a long time.

I’m sorry I’m not tougher skinned, but to be told that I was playing “self-centered music in a Protestant style” would completely crush me.

No WONDER no one wants to cantor or volunteer to play piano for Mass! I don’t blame them. No one should have to put up with this sort of criticism. I predict that if this critical spirit isn’t dealt with soon, there will be NO musicians left who are willing to play or sing in Catholic Churches.

 

[Joysong]

W.H.,

When you select a portion of a document and highlight it in another color, one can conclude that you are emphacizing that thought and embrace the ideal personally. And remember, I did give the link, so I was not failing to give the entire reference.

 

[VociMike]

Cat, since you discuss the subject of Catholic sacred music a lot here, do you actually want to know and follow what the Church says about what makes sacred music more or less worthy? As a church musician are you seeking to educate yourself about what the Church calls for? When the Holy Father says that certainly, one liturgical song is not as good as another, are you trying to understand what makes one song better than another, in the view of the popes and of the Church?

 

[Walking_Home]

W.H.,

When you select a portion of a document and highlight it in another color, one can conclude that you are emphacizing that thought and embrace the ideal personally. And remember, I did give the link, so I was not failing to give the entire reference.

---

I was emphacizing our Pope’s words—and yes his words do mean something----he is the POPE after all.

 

[VociMike]

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I was emphacizing our Pope’s words—and yes his words do mean something----he is the POPE after all.

And his words clearly do not say Gregorian chant and nothing else, as we keep hearing it claimed is our position.

 

[RiverRock]

And never have I said that it’s OK to use Barney songs in Mass. Please, I beg you, don’t dress me up like a villainess. It’s not right to post phrases and attribute them to me. It’s slander, which is a form of lying.

Please, be kinder.

Chill out, Cat. I never said or implied that YOU said that Barney music was appropriate. I was just setting up the slippery slope that some Churches are slidin’ down. You seem to have this victim thing going on. But you were the one who called me a snob. That’s okay. I’ve been called way worse! Anyway, forgettabout it.

 

[Brendan]

You are HOW OLD? Brendan? Of course you would not have seen this. Ask Cardinal Arinze and myself, who both have seen it. **

OK, can now please give examples of when a priest, saying either the TLM or NO, would deliberatly, and with regularity, change the words of the Mass.

And my age really doesn’t matter, for one, regularly attend a Latin NO Mass, said by several priests, and they have never altered the words of Mass deliberatly.
( and yes, I know enough Latin to follow along)

Mispronounce some words here and there, there have even been times where the celebrant had to go back and correct himself.

But no one, not even ‘Traditionalists’ consider that to be an abuse, but rather honest mistakes.

 

[Walking_Home]

And his words clearly do not say Gregorian chant and nothing else, as we keep hearing it claimed is our position.

---

He basicly said—Gregorian chant —should have pride of place in the Latin rite. Pride of place would be–not the only form – but the first and foremost form of music employed for the Mass. In all my years in the NO Mass–I have not heard it in any Mass I have attended.

 

[Brendan]

Brendan, please cite your documentation proving that certain songs are not hymns, just songs.

Is there a music professor or textbook where you learned that? Is this something that a particular college or seminary teaches?

I’ve played piano in church for 38 years and worked with dozens of choral directors and voice teachers and I’ve never heard anyone say that. I am curious where you learned this.

Thank you.

The Latin word Hymnus means a Song of Praise.

This is distinguished from the word Cantus, which is just a regular song.

So for a Cantus, to become an Hymnus, it must offer Praise.

“O Salutaris Hostia” offers Praise, it is a Hymn.

“Gather Us In” does not offer praise.

Next question - What do you consider the distinction between a 'Hymn" and a “Song”. They are seperate words in English, do you consider them to be synomyms.

“Zip-A-Dee-Doo-Dah” is a song, is it also a hymn?

If we sang it in Church, would that make it a hymn?

You identified several pieces of music as being ‘songs’, why did not classify them as hymns if you considered them to be appropriate for liturgy?

 

[paramedicgirl]

---

He basicly said—Gregorian chant —should have pride of place in the Latin rite. Pride of place would be–not the only form – but the first and foremost form of music employed for the Mass. In all my years in the NO Mass–I have not heard it in any Mass I have attended.

It seems that some people are really against the wishes of the pope in this regard. And it’s always the traditionalists who get called disobedient here.