Stop Complaing about Music in Church.

[Joysong]

Folks, this is just moving too fast for me to keep up. I’m going to sleep on it. Keep in mind what I cited above from the bishops:

Styles of music, choices of instruments, forms of celebration—all converge in a single purpose: that men and women of faith may proclaim and share that faith in prayer and Christ may grow among us all.

Good night.

 

[paramedicgirl]

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“Gather Us In” does not offer praise.

Yes it does. It offers horizontal praise.

 

[RiverRock]

What a shame for a young person to grow up thinking that Marty Haugen is the traditional music of the Catholic church!

Yes, and what’s more, he’s Lutheran!

I’m not just a complainer or a snob. I have also complimented our organist and chior on many many occasions when they pick more appropriate songs and perform them beautifully! I want them to be praised at all times (first for getting up there and doing it-because I can’t) and secondly, to encourage them for more of the same. And then we go back to: “Here I ammmm Looooord, it is I Loooord” for the thousanth time. Oh dear. Some complain that they hear too much chant and stuff from ancient dead guys. I’d LOVE to hear it once in a while, that’s all I’m saying. Just once in a while, is that too much to ask?.

Everyone needs to take a pill and get a grip.

 

[LJN21]

OK, can now please give examples of when a priest, saying either the TLM or NO, would deliberatly, and with regularity, change the words of the Mass.

I’ve heard adlibing of the entire consecration (NO mass), same Mass he would administer communion and say anything but “Body of Christ”. Things likes “Come and taste the Goodness of the Lord”, “Jesus Christ transcended in to Food” I’ll think of more later I’m sure.

 

[Walking_Home]

It seems that some people are really against the wishes of the pope in this regard. And it’s always the traditionalists who get called disobedient here.

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Yes—it is very confusing–and downright plain disingenuous to be manipulated in such a manner.

 

[brotherhrolf]

We have 1500+ years of liturgical music under our collective belt - and I don’t just mean Catholic. Chant (both western and eastern - anyone sung any eastern chant? I have). Sacred polyphony. Protestant and Catholic. Bach to Bruchner. Victoria’s “O Magnum Mysterium” is the functional equivalent of “This Little Light of Mine”. I think not.

Want to know what the most popular Communion hymn was before Vatican II - sung over and over and over again ad nauseum? Humbly we adore thee - an English translation of the Gregorian chant Adoro Te Devote. And as a kid, I could sing either - Latin or English.

OK, all you proponents about us old fogeys complaining. Please explain to me how I had to sing Simon and Garfunkle’s “Bridge over Troubled Waters” and “Sounds of Silence” at my Catholic high school’s graduation Mass in 1969. What is the liturgical significance of these two songs to a Catholic boy’s high school graduation Mass? May, 1969. How many of you even know who Simon and Garfunkle are?

How about “Sons of God, Hear His Holy Word”? Cutting edge 1969 - anyone heard it? Or, “And They’ll Know We Are Christians by Our Love”? Anyone sung that, lately?

I await your response.

Salve Regina? Ave Verum Corpus?

 

[LJN21]

How about “Sons of God, Hear His Holy Word”? Cutting edge 1969 - anyone heard it? Or, “And They’ll Know We Are Christians by Our Love”? Anyone sung that, lately?

I await your response.

Salve Regina? Ave Verum Corpus?

Ugh … yeah actually not to long ago they did “They’ll Know We Are Christians by Our Love” I believe it was the recessional… in a Mass with that actually did have the Clapping Gloria no less…

Gloria clap clap
Gloria clap clap

 

[otjm]

Yes I do. My wife was a church music director for many years, and she attests to it. Groups like this attest to it. Groups like the “Moratorium on Haugen & Haas” (whatever the exact name is) attest to it. Every pope since Vatican II has attested to it. Next to complaints about liturgical abuses, complaints about music are the second biggest complaint people have about the liturgy (Adoremus poll).

To imagine that liturgical music is not a source of great contention in the Church today is to be ignorant of reality. Good grief, why do you think the OP felt it necessary to start this thread in the first place?

I am old enough to remember when the complaints in society were about rock and roll. And about hill billy music. And about long hair music. There is alwasy someone around who will kvetch and belly ache. That there are those who do so about liturgical muic doesn’t really surprise me. Howeever, I maintain that the majority of people are not complaining; that it is a minority who do. and many of that minority do so indiscriminately; they do so as if things were better in the "old days’. I was there in the “old days” and it was at best a mixed bag.

One of the more hilarious bits is the remarks about Gregorian Chant; Gregorian Chant was not used all that widely before V2, and much of it was poor musically (an much of what I have heard recently is even poorer).

There are cross directions coming out of Rome; on one hand they seem to want chant and polyphony, which is capable of being done correctly only by a choir (and many, if not most choirs should stay out of that arena unless they are simple souls incapable of being embarrased by their lack of talent), and on the other hand they enourage the congregation to sing. And the latter is flatly ignored by the elite group of sophisticates who want something bordering on a concert at Mass.

 

[lak611]

We have 1500+ years of liturgical music under our collective belt - and I don’t just mean Catholic. Chant (both western and eastern - anyone sung any eastern chant? I have). Sacred polyphony. Protestant and Catholic. Bach to Bruchner. Victoria’s “O Magnum Mysterium” is the functional equivalent of “This Little Light of Mine”. I think not.

Want to know what the most popular Communion hymn was before Vatican II - sung over and over and over again ad nauseum? Humbly we adore thee - an English translation of the Gregorian chant Adoro Te Devote. And as a kid, I could sing either - Latin or English.

OK, all you proponents about us old fogeys complaining. Please explain to me how I had to sing Simon and Garfunkle’s “Bridge over Troubled Waters” and “Sounds of Silence” at my Catholic high school’s graduation Mass in 1969. What is the liturgical significance of these two songs to a Catholic boy’s high school graduation Mass? May, 1969. How many of you even know who Simon and Garfunkle are?

I know who they are, and they are not sacred musicians.

How about “Sons of God, Hear His Holy Word”? Cutting edge 1969 - anyone heard it? Or, “And They’ll Know We Are Christians by Our Love”? Anyone sung that, lately?

I never heard of these.

Salve Regina? Ave Verum Corpus?

Those are classics. I know and love these.

 

[otjm]

I would agree, but there are FAR too many songs that spend more time glorifying the congregation instead of God.

This isn’t a matter of musical style, but rather inspidid, self centered lyrics.

“Gather Us In” is a fine example. All it does is focus on the congregation, and what God can do for us.

Never on us giving God the Praise He is due.

Prayer (which is what liturgical music is) consists of more than just praise; there is petition, athanksgiving, and reparation also.

 

[brotherhrolf]

I am old enough to remember when the complaints in society were about rock and roll. And about hill billy music. And about long hair music. There is alwasy someone around who will kvetch and belly ache. That there are those who do so about liturgical muic doesn’t really surprise me. Howeever, I maintain that the majority of people are not complaining; that it is a minority who do. and many of that minority do so indiscriminately; they do so as if things were better in the "old days’. I was there in the “old days” and it was at best a mixed bag.

One of the more hilarious bits is the remarks about Gregorian Chant; Gregorian Chant was not used all that widely before V2, and much of it was poor musically (an much of what I have heard recently is even poorer).

There are cross directions coming out of Rome; on one hand they seem to want chant and polyphony, which is capable of being done correctly only by a choir (and many, if not most choirs should stay out of that arena unless they are simple souls incapable of being embarrased by their lack of talent), and on the other hand they enourage the congregation to sing. And the latter is flatly ignored by the elite group of sophisticates who want something bordering on a concert at Mass.

 

[lak611]

Ugh … yeah actually not to long ago they did “They’ll Know We Are Christians by Our Love” I believe it was the recessional… in a Mass with that actually did have the Clapping Gloria no less…

Gloria clap clap
Gloria clap clap

I felt sick when I heard the clapping Gloria. Father did not look happy either. Luckily, that was the first and last time for clapping Gloria.

 

[otjm]

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What you have failed to notice is—your use of scripture to cast a negative light on people here—includes in essence going against the mind of the Church. It is the mind of the Church — who has from the time of Vat II to our current Pope–stated what form of music is proper and holds pride of place for our Mass.

There you go again, trying to make it exclusive. Go read the document.

 

[Brendan]

Brendan, please cite your documentation proving that certain songs are not hymns, just songs.

Is there a music professor or textbook where you learned that? Is this something that a particular college or seminary teaches?

I’ve played piano in church for 38 years and worked with dozens of choral directors and voice teachers and I’ve never heard anyone say that. I am curious where you learned this.

Thank you.

Hymn - A religious song of honor and praise addressed to God or the Saints. Hymns appointed for liturigical use are mainly taken from Scripture or based on some mystery of the Church. All hymns used in the liturgy must be approved by an ecclesiastical authority (Etym, Latin, Hymnus, song of praise)

Modern Catholic Dictionary
John A. Hardon, SJ
Professor of Dogmatic Theology
West Baden College

Nihil Obstat: William B Smith, S.T.D
Imprimatur: +Joseph T. O’Keefe, V.G. New York

© 1999

ISBN 0-9672989-2-x

 

[brotherhrolf]

One of the more hilarious bits is the remarks about Gregorian Chant; Gregorian Chant was not used all that widely before V2, and much of it was poor musically (an much of what I have heard recently is even poorer).

How very strange. I was a kid, an altar boy, and a member of the children’s choir. Funny, I learned Latin and sang chant in a kids choir. But then, it was south Louisiana…I must have grown up Catholic! Whoops! Wow! I grew up Catholic…before Vatican II…nasty secret that.

 

[Brendan]

Prayer (which is what liturgical music is) consists of more than just praise; there is petition, athanksgiving, and reparation also.

Note that the great prayers of the Church ( Hail Mary, Our Father, Glory Be, Salve Regina, Memorare), all have Praise; in fact most begin with Praise, and then move to petition.

 

[Walking_Home]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Walking_Home
What you have failed to notice is—your use of scripture to cast a negative light on people here—includes in essence going against the mind of the Church. It is the mind of the Church — who has from the time of Vat II to our current Pope–stated what form of music is proper and holds pride of place for our Mass.

There you go again, trying to make it exclusive. Go read the document.

---

What document. The documents starting with Vat II–state that Gregorian chant should have pride of place.

 

[VAC]

After my family was kicked out of the Protestant church in 2001, my two daughters stopped attending any church. They didn’t trust “church” anymore.

You can’t really blame anyone for this. My older 2 sons refused to make their confirmation, only go to mass by force, and have gone through times of claiming to be atheists. Keep praying for them. Ours are not the first to reject their faith, many return later in life

Unfortunately criticism goes with the territory.Lesson # 1 is you can’t please everyone. I’ve seen more criticism and conflict from within the choir and church leadership than from outside. If I ever quit, it will be because of the politics. I’m still at it by the grace of God and the power of the Holy Spirit. My music teachers who are professional musicians have told me they are treated better and appreciated more playing in nightclubs than playing in churches.

none of these documents specify WHICH songs and styles and composers are inappropriate. I

Of course not, that would make things too easy

After reading some of the comments on this Board, I am almost ready to quit playing piano in Catholic churches!

Don’t quit, it’s what the enemy wants; discouragement is Satan’s greatest weapon.

 

[brotherhrolf]

Brother Hrolf is on a one note samba. Still haven’t got a satisfactory answer for Simon and Garfunkle. in 1969. C’mon all you folks who moan about us old fogeys! Please, I beg you…provide me with some sort of liturgical justification for “Bridge over Troubled Waters” and “Sounds of Silence”. Close to 40 years later, I’m still awaiting this.

 

[lak611]

Brother Hrolf is on a one note samba. Still haven’t got a satisfactory answer for Simon and Garfunkle. in 1969. C’mon all you folks who moan about us old fogeys! Please, I beg you…provide me with some sort of liturgical justification for “Bridge over Troubled Waters” and “Sounds of Silence”. Close to 40 years later, I’m still awaiting this.

I cannot see where there would be any justification for that one. I’m glad I never was subjected to that at a Mass!