Stories of Christ and Baha'u'llah

[tonyfish58]

Christ and Baha’u’llah Both have many stories re the lives they lived.

I thought this would be a good Topic for us to share together.

I do not intend this to be a Baha’i vs Christian Discussion, I would like to explore the lives of the Heralds of both the Christian and Baha’i Faith before they proclaimed their mission.

Until that time they were both looked upon as a follower of the religion they were born in. So how were they seen? How did they live their lives?

I found this story about Jesus;

At twelve years of age, a young Jewish boy becomes legally “a son of the Law”. This ceremony still exists today, (called a Bah Mitzvah), where the young boy answers the priests’ questions about the sacred texts in the presence of his family. Then they congratulate him and shower him with sweetmeats and flower petals.

Even though it is not in the gospel of Luke, this is probably when his three day disappearance and discovery in the temple in Jerusalem occurred. This amusing story is probably taken from Mary’s memories and confidences.

Each year, the Holy Family went with many of their neighbors, parents and friends to Jerusalem to celebrate the great feast of Passover in the temple in Jerusalem.

During the long walk, the children moved along the line, talking to one friend, and then another.

Every year about ten thousand pilgrims came from the four corners of the world to crowd into the temple. Jesus, who had gone there every year, knew the layout of the temple perfectly.

But this time we do not know why He went to sit among the doctors of the law, the Scribes and the great intellectuals of Jewish society. Carried along by His prodigious, precocious memory, He began to debate and even question their views about the Sacred Scriptures!

Mary was upset, but she knew that the hand of the Lord was on Him. Joseph, the head of the family, was very worried. Yet not a word of reproach came from his lips when they found Him seated among the professors and wise men, who were listening to Him with eyes full of admiration.

His mother said:

"Son, why have you done this to us?"

He was visibly troubled by His parents’ worry, and replied:

"Why did you search for me? Did you not know that I had to be in my Father's house"!

Mary’s maternal instinct had perturbed her. But what does a mother do who loses her child and finds him again? She takes Him in her arms and forgives Him….

Jesus was moved by this proof of Mary’s devotion; he had not wanted to worry her. He returned therefore with them to Nazareth and Luke says in : v 51… He was obedient to them… Link - historel.net/english/christ/03enfant.htm#12

This is a story of Baha’u’llah as a young child.

His son, ‘Abdu’l-Bahá, said this concerning His childhood: “… Husayn Ali (Bahá’u’lláh), belonged to the nobility of Persia. From earliest childhood He was distinguished among His relatives and friends.… In wisdom, intelligence and as a source of new knowledge, He was advanced beyond His age and superior to His surroundings. All who knew Him were astonished at His precocity. It was usual for them to say, ‘Such a child will not live,’ for it is commonly believed that precocious children do not reach maturity.” Link - bahaullah.org/iran/bahaullah-childhood

Regards Tony

 

[Polycarp1]

False Prophets & False Christs
Imposters who claim to be Christ, to be a prophet, sent by God, or otherwise claims to speak God’s truth, when in reality they do not speak the truth and are not who they claim to be.

References in Scripture:

“But there were also false prophets among the people, even as there shall be among you lying teachers, who shall bring in sects of perdition, and deny the Lord who bought them: bringing upon themselves swift destruction. And many shall follow their riotousnesses, through whom the way of truth shall be evil spoken of.” 2 Peter 2:1-2

“For there shall arise false Christs and false prophets, and shall show great signs and wonders, insomuch as to deceive (if possible) even the elect. Behold I have told it to you, beforehand” Mark 24:24-25

“And Jesus answering, said to them: Take heed that no man seduce you: For many will come in my name saying, I am Christ: and they will seduce many” Matthew 24:4-5

“Who said: Take heed you be not seduced; for many will come in my name, saying, I am he; and the time is at hand: go ye not therefore after them” Luke 21:8

“And many false prophets shall rise, and shall seduce many” Matthew 24:11

“Beware of false prophets, who come to you in the clothing of sheep, but inwardly they are ravening wolves. By their fruits you shall know them. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles? Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit, and the evil tree bringeth forth evil fruit. A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can an evil tree bring forth good fruit. Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit, shall be cut down, and shall be cast into the fire. Wherefore by their fruits you shall know them.” Matthew 7:15-20

“Dearly beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits if they be of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world” 1 John 4:1

Take heed to yourselves, and to the whole flock, wherein the Holy Ghost hath placed you bishops, to rule the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood. I know that, after my departure, ravening wolves will enter in among you, not sparing the flock. And of your own selves shall arise men speaking perverse things, to draw away disciples after them. Acts 20:28-30

Now the Spirit manifestly saith, that in the last times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to spirits of error, and doctrines of devils, Speaking lies in hypocrisy, and having their conscience seared…" 1 Tim 4:1-2

For there shall be a time, when they will not endure sound doctrine; but, according to their own desires, they will heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears: And will indeed turn away their hearing from the truth, but will be turned unto fables. 2 Tim 4:3-4

 

[tonyfish58]

Polycarp1 - Did not see any stories in that post

A story of Baha’u’llah from His own Pen - bahaullah.org/iran/early-experience

In a letter Bahá’u’lláh recalled as a child seeing an elaborate puppet show about war and intrigues in the court of a king and the riches of those in authority. After the performance, Bahá’u’lláh saw a man come out from behind the tent with a box under his arm. “What is this box?” Bahá’u’lláh asked him, “and what was the nature of this display?” “All this lavish display and these elaborate devices,” the puppet master replied, “the king, the princes, and the ministers, their pomp and glory, their might and power, everything you saw, are now contained within this box.” Bahá’u’lláh then recalled: “… Ever since that day, all the trappings of the world have seemed in the eyes of this Youth akin to that same spectacle. They have never been, nor will they ever be, of any weight and consequence, be it to the extent of a grain of mustard seed.… Erelong these outward trappings, these visible treasures, these earthly vanities, these arrayed armies, these adorned vestures, these proud and overweening souls, all shall pass into the confines of the grave, as though into that box. In the eyes of those possessed of insight, all this conflict, contention and vainglory hath ever been, and will ever be, like unto the play and pastimes of children.”

A Story of Jesus - historel.net/english/christ/03enfant.htm#12

Joseph had his workshop very near the house. Jesus went there often to watch His adoptive father

cut, sculpt and shape wood with great skill. Then, when He took a piece of wood and borrowed the tools, Joseph let Him carve something too, and smiled when He transformed a piece of wood into an animal or some other familiar object. He would show it to Joseph, and then, proud of His own work, He would run to show it to Mary so that she could admire it too.

He liked to have fun with the donkey, especially in the evening, when the beast was exhausted from pulling logs of wood all day. Jesus approached him and looked directly into his eyes, speaking to him while comforting and stroking his head and ears. Finally He would give him a great armful of fresh grass, picked especially for him…………

Jesus knew how to make the fire for Joseph to heat the iron and melt it. With Joseph, Jesus learnt the trees and to choose them according to their qualities:

The cypress, with large green leaves and the scaly cones, has very fragrant wood, and is practically indestructible.
The oak is the favorite tree of the carpenter because of its quality and its long life.
The turpentine tree has shaggy leaves similar to those of the walnut tree. The perfume is as pungent as that of the eucalyptus.
The carob tree can survive long droughts and protects the soil from erosion. After the pretty red flowers have died, edible pods appear, that are given to the animals to eat, or that very poor people as food, (as in the parable of the prodigal son.)
And many others, such as the olive trees of Jerusalem, the fig trees or date palms of Jericho, the almond tree, the pistachio tree, the plane tree, or the majestic cedars of Lebanon…...

Every morning early, He went to the market with Mary. He would stop before the spices, the pots of honey, the boxes of fish, the displays of fruit and vegetables, and the beautiful varieties of sheep or goat cheeses………….

He watched the baby animals, such as chicks and ducklings covered with down; He stood beside their enclosures, and spoke softly to them, trying to caress them with His finger tips…

With Mary, He went for water from the only fountain in the village. They chatted with neighbors about the latest news of Rome, Jerusalem, Sepphoris or Cesarea…

Kneeling beside her, He listened to Mary as she read long passages about the history of the Hebrew people. He listened and watched her carefully, saying nothing, yet maybe He already knew all these things……………

 

[drac16]

Sure, there are similarities between those two excerpts of Jesus and Baha’u’llah’s respective upbringings. Lots of people develop wisdom at an early age, though. What exactly does that prove? (not meant to be rude-- it’s a sincere question).

 

[daler]

When we have so little to go on, but find an occasional similarity, it might be interesting to go on further to explore.

This is very rough in a comparison, but Jesus was teaching the wise old Jewish men things no child could know. If we had more to go on, that would be great, yet we do accept that he was indeed a spiritual prodigy.

The same is historically given in early accounts of the life of Baha’u’llah, who was not formerly educated, yet who easily confounded the most erudite scholars and doctors of the Islamic society in which He was raised, such that a s a mere child, all were astounded at His ability to unravel the most abstruse intricacies of knowledge to which the best of them could not do.

. The wise teachers would simply send the Bab home, telling his uncle, “He stands in no need of me, for He knowledge exceeds what I know.” This, at the age of 7 years.

. The hand of God does move in certain souls Whom we call Prophets. Our difficulty seems to be in accepting a new one when He comes along unfamiliar to our selves. Then we are tested with our own ignorance and bias, which can only be overcome by a serious and objective study of the lives of such Holy Ones.

. After all, there have always been such souls appearing in our midst from time to time, since Adam, Noah, and Abraham. Likewise Moses, Jesus, and Muhammad. All these have had greater influence upon humanity than any other single souls, transforming the lives of millions for centuries after their passing, creating entire civilizations.

. Clearly, Jesus left such a legacy, as did Moses and Muhammad. It appears with certainty we are living in such a time once again in our history in the coming of One called Baha’u’llah, Whose influence is spreading and His Message rejuvenating all who come in contact with its unifying message, of which some refer to the evident unfoldment of the One Fold and the One Shepherd, so widespread and all-embracing is its attraction in every corner of the world.

. Is this not the effect of Christ’s presence and message upon the world? History is being repeated. Of this, an in depth study reveals no other conclusion:

. “The world’s equilibrium hath been upset through the vibrating influence of this most great, this new World Order. Mankind’s ordered life hath been revolutionized through the agency of this unique, this wondrous System—the like of which mortal eyes have never witnessed.” Baha’u’llah .

reference.bahai.org/en/t/b/PB/pb-63.html

.

 

[Polycarp1]

But Jesus was God incarnate and Baha’u’llah was just a man who like all of us are completely dependent on God for our existence. He was a sinner as we are. Jesus wasn’t. That is a big difference that makes looking at perceived simulatities moot.

 

[openmind77]

Christ and Baha’u’llah Both have many stories re the lives they lived.

I thought this would be a good Topic for us to share together.

I do not intend this to be a Baha’i vs Christian Discussion, I would like to explore the lives of the Heralds of both the Christian and Baha’i Faith before they proclaimed their mission.
…

Regards Tony

The title alone implies that there is some equivalence between Jesus and Bahaullah. Even worse it seems like a sneaky way to tell us stories about Bahaullah without just saying ‘Stories of Bahaullah’ in the title.

Actually I am convinced that Bahaullah was a very spiritual and holy man, But you Bahais need to come down to earth - Jesus was an incarnation that occurs once in several thousand years (I don’t believe that he is the first and only Son of God since the very beginning of time like most Christians do), while several men like Bahaullah are born every century in India alone.

Even if you believe that Bahaullah was in the same class as Jesus (or even higher), there is no need to beat it into us on this forum. If that is indeed true then people will automatically come to your website to learn all about Bahaullah, you don’t need to expound on it unasked here.

Why don’t you wait for someone else to say ’ Please tell us stories of Bahaullah’ before you start a thread like this?

 

[tonyfish58]

Sure, there are similarities between those two excerpts of Jesus and Baha’u’llah’s respective upbringings. Lots of people develop wisdom at an early age, though. What exactly does that prove? (not meant to be rude-- it’s a sincere question).

What does it prove is a valid question

I think what it proves is that knowledge is a gift from God and we should all have Humility to know we are nothing without God and His Bounty.

What I noticed and the reason for the thread is that a Prophet of God knowledge is directed at/to Spiritual Teaching and doing good deeds, there thoughts are not of this world

Yes some humans might show a quite high level of knowledge at a young age, but their thoughts are of this world.

The stories you find on all the Prophets of God tend towards the Spirit and Good works.

IMHO that is how I see it

Regards Tony

 

[Servant19]

The title alone implies that there is some equivalence between Jesus and Bahaullah. Even worse it seems like a sneaky way to tell us stories about Bahaullah without just saying ‘Stories of Bahaullah’ in the title.

Actually I am convinced that Bahaullah was a very spiritual and holy man, But you Bahais need to come down to earth - Jesus was an incarnation that occurs once in several thousand years (I don’t believe that he is the first and only Son of God since the very beginning of time like most Christians do), while several men like Bahaullah are born every century in India alone.

Even if you believe that Bahaullah was in the same class as Jesus (or even higher), there is no need to beat it into us on this forum. If that is indeed true then people will automatically come to your website to learn all about Bahaullah, you don’t need to expound on it unasked here.

Why don’t you wait for someone else to say ’ Please tell us stories of Bahaullah’ before you start a thread like this?

Where would Christianity be without the missionary work of Paul, Peter etc and the other Apostles?

All religions start with tremendous energy expended on propagation and expansion work…

Baha’is are fully aware of the massive difference in societal change that His Teachings will bring…I would like to see one Indian person who has brought about such change, just one from this century or the last one, or the one previous

 

[tonyfish58]

But Jesus was God incarnate and Baha’u’llah was just a man who like all of us are completely dependent on God for our existence. He was a sinner as we are. Jesus wasn’t. That is a big difference that makes looking at perceived similarities moot.

Polycarp1 - Thank you for the follow up.

Your reply is an interpretation you hold to dearly and I am fine with that

If we explore these stories one may be able to note that some peoples knowledge rises above this world of existence. Their thoughts are not of this world

There are very few who display this type of Knowledge, thus how can we come to an opinion on who and what they might be unless we read the stories?

Regards Tony

 

[tonyfish58]

The title alone implies that there is some equivalence between Jesus and Bahaullah. Even worse it seems like a sneaky way to tell us stories about Bahaullah without just saying ‘Stories of Bahaullah’ in the title.

Actually I am convinced that Bahaullah was a very spiritual and holy man, But you Bahais need to come down to earth - Jesus was an incarnation that occurs once in several thousand years (I don’t believe that he is the first and only Son of God since the very beginning of time like most Christians do), while several men like Bahaullah are born every century in India alone.

Even if you believe that Bahaullah was in the same class as Jesus (or even higher), there is no need to beat it into us on this forum. If that is indeed true then people will automatically come to your website to learn all about Bahaullah, you don’t need to expound on it unasked here.

Why don’t you wait for someone else to say ’ Please tell us stories of Bahaullah’ before you start a thread like this?

openmind77 - I am sure I was posting in the Non-Catholic Religion thread, that is the Thread to share ones religion in the spirit of friendship and fellowship So your stance may be a bit harsh

Please note that I am Happy to have any Prophets Story posted here from any Faith. I chose that Title as it is stories of Christ and Baha’u’llah that I originally read and wanted to share, but it is open to all Faiths Prophets

This thread is not directed to push our Doctrinal Interpretations, it is the stories I was after

The post above gives my thoughts, as all the stories I have read re Prophets as younger people talk about their vast knowledge, meekness, charity and kindness.

As I love talking about the positive virtues I thought this would be great for all to share and it would be great to discuss this subject in that context

Regards Tony

 

[daler]

Actually I am convinced that Bahaullah was a very spiritual and holy man, But you Bahais need to come down to earth - Jesus was an incarnation that occurs once in several thousand years (I don’t believe that he is the first and only Son of God since the very beginning of time like most Christians do), while several men like Bahaullah are born every century in India alone.

Dear Openmind,
. Friend, you’ve got me thinking. If indeed Baha’u’llah is merely a man, yet can produce such works as the Hidden Words and the Kitab-i-Iqan (in only two days, without pause of the pen or needing to reference any source), then this would be an even greater miracle, coming from one like ourselves, than were He actually a Manifestation of God, as He claims!

. Were all the wise men of this age to gather and spend the rest of their lives attempting to compose the likes of either of these Holy Books, they would utterly fail. Anyone who doubts the veracity of this statement is welcome to take up the challenge.

. Openmind: Are you sure that you have the right handle for this consideration? Would that one might be so humble as to know the limits of their own humility, and defer to the obvious, admitting readily that such a task is beyond them, and thus, draw nearer to the Truth which shall ultimately set them free.

.

 

[openmind77]

Where would Christianity be without the missionary work of Paul, Peter etc and the other Apostles?

All religions start with tremendous energy expended on propagation and expansion work…

Baha’is are fully aware of the massive difference in societal change that His Teachings will bring…I would like to see one Indian person who has brought about such change, just one from this century or the last one, or the one previous

I agree that the missionary work of the Apostles was necessary.

But then this forum is definitely not the place for missionary work

 

[openmind77]

Dear Openmind,
. Friend, you’ve got me thinking. If indeed Baha’u’llah is merely a man, yet can produce such works as the Hidden Words and the Kitab-i-Iqan (in only two days, without pause of the pen or needing to reference any source), then this would be an even greater miracle, coming from one like ourselves, than were He actually a Manifestation of God, as He claims!

. Were all the wise men of this age to gather and spend the rest of their lives attempting to compose the likes of either of these Holy Books, they would utterly fail. Anyone who doubts the veracity of this statement is welcome to take up the challenge.

. Openmind: Are you sure that you have the right handle for this consideration? Would that one might be so humble as to know the limits of their own humility, and defer to the obvious, admitting readily that such a task is beyond them, and thus, draw nearer to the Truth which shall ultimately set them free.

.

I did not say Bahaullah was an ordinary man, He was undoubtedly a very inspired and holy man, but so are many others. And great, inspired volumes have been written by many more (like Meister Ekhart for instance).

Actually most Avatars don’t write books, they give their teachings orally.Most of these teachings are usually quite concise and dense with meaning (like the beatitudes for instance), it is the disciples who expand on them with commentaries.

Bahaullah seems to have spent his time writing tons of stuff trying to explain his own thoughts (so much stuff that a lot still has not been translated). And from some of his thoughts on the Trinity, the afterlife etc, it is clear that he did not really know the inner truth about things as a true Avatar should.

 

[openmind77]

Where would Christianity be without the missionary work of Paul, Peter etc and the other Apostles?

All religions start with tremendous energy expended on propagation and expansion work…

Baha’is are fully aware of the massive difference in societal change that His Teachings will bring…I would like to see one Indian person who has brought about such change, just one from this century or the last one, or the one previous

I agree that the missionary work of the Apostles was necessary.

But then this forum is definitely not the place for missionary work

Why don’t we wait to make this comparison until after all these ‘massive societal changes’ have actually occurred? (Sorry, forgot to address this in my previous post)

 

[Servant19]

I did not say Bahaullah was an ordinary man, He was undoubtedly a very inspired and holy man, but so are many others. And great, inspired volumes have been written by many more (like Meister Ekhart for instance).

Actually most Avatars don’t write books, they give their teachings orally.Most of these teachings are usually quite concise and dense with meaning (like the beatitudes for instance), it is the disciples who expand on them with commentaries.

Bahaullah seems to have spent his time writing tons of stuff trying to explain his own thoughts (so much stuff that a lot still has not been translated). And from some of his thoughts on the Trinity, the afterlife etc, it is clear that he did not really know the inner truth about things as a true Avatar should.

Actually, Baha’u’llah hardly ever wrote anything down Himself. His 100 volumes of Writings were predominantly spoken, and recorded by His scribes and then ratified to be correct by His own seal.

His scribes would sometimes have to record the equivalent of one of the Gospels within the space of 8 hours. It is for this reason that His scribes would often need to work in “shifts” around Him. How blessed they were…

 

[Servant19]

I agree that the missionary work of the Apostles was necessary.

But then this forum is definitely not the place for missionary work

Why don’t we wait to make this comparison until after all these ‘massive societal changes’ have actually occurred? (Sorry, forgot to address this in my previous post)

bahai.org/frontiers/

God bless you openmind…

 

[SteveVH]

Christ and Baha’u’llah Both have many stories re the lives they lived.

I thought this would be a good Topic for us to share together.

I do not intend this to be a Baha’i vs Christian Discussion, I would like to explore the lives of the Heralds of both the Christian and Baha’i Faith before they proclaimed their mission.

Until that time they were both looked upon as a follower of the religion they were born in. So how were they seen? How did they live their lives?

Hi, Tony. I am a little confused as to what you are expecting from Christians. The only stories we have of Jesus are contained in the New Testament. We completely reject the Gnostic writings which, for instance, portray Jesus making clay birds as a child, breathing on them and watching them fly away, as if he used his divine powers to entertain himself.

So I guess the bottom line is that if you want stories of Jesus, go to the Bible. We know very little about Jesus’ life prior to his public ministry. What he accomplished was done in three years and that was documented by the writers of the Gospels.

Peace.

Steve

 

[swariffin]

Dear Tonyfish58,

I see your point of comparing Jesus’ live as compared to Baha’ul’lah. I don’t know much about the Baha’i religion (yet I do believe that your religion has truth indeed). Comparing religion based on the theology will lead us to never ending discussion (if I don’t say arguments). The proper way to compare religion, is to make the good teaching that we have both in commons, become the foundation for all of us to work hand in hand for the sake of the needy people, such as our brothers in Tacloban, Phillipines for example.

 

[SteveVH]

I would disagree that this is the way to compare religion. There are many atheists who may feel compelled to help their fellow human beings in time of tragedy, and they have no religion (in the common sense of the word) at all.