Stories of Christ and Baha'u'llah

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Tony, you didn’t answer or address anything I said. You guys keep saying that, if we’ll just investigate for ourselves, the truth of Baha’u’llah’s teachings will become clear, but here you are, dismissing me. I want to investigate! I want to see the evidence that you guys keep talking about! Please, show me where in history Imam Husayn [may Allah be pleased with him] professed a belief in what baha’is call ‘manifestations of God’. Show me where he defined this. I wanna see it.
Drac,
. Your question is most valid, and deserves an answer perhaps more fitting than either Tony or I may be able to provide. I am roughly familiar, but was raised Christian background, and ignorant of the finer points of Muslim prophecy and traditions. So kindly forgive me of this. I will contact Sen and Arthra and see if they might better be able to answer your question. Ok, my brother. Please forgive my ignorance on this subject. I do not mean to dismiss you or belittle anything your heart desires to understand. This is a sacred matter. I will get back to you by contacting my friends with a stronger background. Thank you for your generous patience.

Peace
Dale
 
Once again Doctrinal Assumptions. Baha’ullah is just alive to me as is Christ 😉

I can not see Christ, but by His Word I can know Him and Love Him, likewise Baha’u’llah :cool:

I looked up the word “Ignatian” @ link ignatianspirituality.com/what-is-ignatian-spirituality/

Ignatian spirituality is a spirituality for everyday life. It insists that God is present in our world and active in our lives. It is a pathway to deeper prayer, good decisions guided by keen discernment, and an active life of service to others.

Is this not a Follower of Christ? It is what a Baha’i should be 🙂

Here is the Catholic view on the Gnostic Gospels - catholiceducation.org/articles/religion/re0676.html

Shame - I like the stories 🤷

Regards Tony
Once again Doctrinal Assumptions. Baha’ullah is just alive to me as is Christ
I can not see Christ, but by His Word I can know Him and Love Him, likewise Baha’u’llah
on that note then Elvis is not dead…

what a load of nonscence you post…

if you cannot see the indifference in what you read of this site to the posts that you put up then…

1/
you are playing and not listening…

2/

you dont understand English…

3/

go to the doctors now,you are very poorly,you cannot see reason or understanding in what has been said…
 
Round and round the rehash goes. You dare to claim those of us who uphold the Gospels deny them simply because we see things in light of reason and a more recent Revelation in which Baha’u’llah came to “unseal” the meanings of the Holy Books, as was prophesied.
No, Baha’u’llah is going against what the Apostles themselves intended the Gospels to mean. It’s not about a “more recent Revelation,” it’s about one man’s opinion (Baha’u’lah’s) going against at least a dozen men’s firsthand experience (the Apostles’). If the Apostles themselves along with at least 500 others testify that they personally saw Jesus physically and literally risen from the dead, are you going to reject their personal and unanimous testimony in favor of a man who lived 1800 years after the fact and had no evidence or testimony to substantiate his claims about the nature of Christ’s Resurrection being a merely spiritual or metaphorical affair?

I’m sorry, but I’d rather trust the author of a book to tell me what it means, rather than some random guy who appeared on the scene 1800 years later, with no connection to the original author. You Baha’is might have had an argument–had you not been arguing against a substantial, visible line of unbroken teaching and testimony that goes clear back to the Apostles themselves. The Baha’i argument about the nature of Christ’s Resurrection relies on ignoring what the Apostles themselves testified on the matter.
 
Steve,
. Sadly, there is not more written about Jesus. Also, how much I wish that we had words written in His own hand. We have only what we have, yet that is enough. It is more than a sketch, you know, but really not a whole lot more than a few verbal sketches from the Gospel writers. Would that Walter Cronkite had been around back then with a microphone and camera, eh? ;-).
The Gospel writers gave us much more than verbal sketches. Their words are still being studied and analyzed. I would venture to guess that more books have been written about Jesus than any other person on earth. But you are correct. Not everything was included in the Gospels. The New Testament is that part of Sacred Tradition committed to writing. The fullness of Christ’s message subsists in the Church which he founded.

The message of the Gospels is not complicated, but rather very simple. Man turned his back on God and disobeyed his commands, breaking the relationship between man and God. This resulted in sin and death entering the world. Man had lost eternal life due to this separation. Because all men have sinned and fallen short, there was no man on earth that could satisfy Justice and repair this relationship. God himself, for no reason other than his incomprehensible love for us, chose to become man in order to restore the union of man with God. He did this by giving his own life.

The point being that, while stories of Jesus life prior to his public ministry might be interesting, they would add nothing to what we already possess. Keep in mind also, that Jesus is still present in his Church and still leads it through the Holy Spirit. We are in no way left wanting due to a lack of stories about Jesus. He has told us everything we need to know.

Peace, Daler.

Steve
 
Round and round the rehash goes. You dare to claim those of us who uphold the Gospels deny them simply because we see things in light of reason and a more recent Revelation in which Baha’u’llah came to “unseal” the meanings of the Holy Books, as was prophesied.

Read the Kitab-i-Iqan, Ignatian friend, for this is the Book which was sealed to Daniel and Revelation, and also the Quran, to even the “Seal” of the Prophets. Not until the Promised One appeared would these seals be removed. This is the most profound Book you will ever likely read. It is readable, but it is immensely deep. You can’t go at it with the usual Reader’s Digest flip though the pages attitude.

I will provide a link and assign you to study it, really study it, and without the usual arrogance and pride, but prayerfully beseech Jesus to show you the truth by means of the Holy Spirit. It is not a light or superficial read. The depths of the one religion of God are brought to light in the most profound discourse every revealed to humanity, wherein the Books are “unsealed”. If you cannot to commit to this, I think none of us here can take you seriously as a seeker of truth.

May God assist you with an unhardened heart in the process and remove the scales from your eyes, thus transforming you from Saul into Paul, for you do have the potential. That is, if the heart of Paul is within you, and you are sober in your undertaking:

reference.bahai.org/en/t/b/KI/

Bless you, brother Ignatian. I am praying for you in this. Take me up on the offer, then speak to me with new insight, please, from that which you read, slowly, studiously, and with humility, not hate and contrition. If you do this, your eyes will be opened, my friend. But it is up to you. May God bless you with a pure and sanctified heart.

Dale
I see nothing adding to the topic, just the accusation that I am prideful and arrogant, both true accusations but not really related. We are comparing two figures, Jesus and your prophet. I have quoted the gospels and also shared some information which is accepted about these figures respectively but only to show their difference. That Jesus Christ is far greater than your prophet. Can bahai deny Jesus died for their sins? Did Mirza Hussain make atonement for your sins?
 
I note that Tony started this thread with a general statement:

*“Christ and Baha’u’llah Both have many stories re the lives they lived. I thought this would be a good Topic for us to share together.

I do not intend this to be a Baha’i vs Christian Discussion**, I would like to explore the lives of the Heralds of both the Christian and Baha’i Faith before they proclaimed their mission.
Until that time they were both looked upon as a follower of the religion they were born in. So how were they seen? How did they live their lives?”*

………………………………………………………

So we can assume that this thread is returning to an “us vrs. them” kind of thread which has already been the case for some months now… It;’s a shame we can’t seem to have a friendly discussion without rancor.

Swariffen I think made an excellent comment:

*Dear Tonyfish58,

I see your point of comparing Jesus’ live as compared to Baha’ul’lah. I don’t know much about the Baha’i religion (yet I do believe that your religion has truth indeed). Comparing religion based on the theology will lead us to never ending discussion (if I don’t say arguments). **The proper way to compare religion, is to make the good teaching that we have both in commons, *become the foundation for all of us to work hand in hand for the sake of the needy people, such as our brothers in Tacloban, Phillipines for example.
 
Drac16 above commented:

Theology matters, so if indeed Baha’u’llah was a prophet, or even more than that, then his theology should be consistent with Islam (because baha’is claim that he’s a fulfillment of many Islamic prophecies)

My own comment is that fulfillment of prophecies is an important issue but the topic of the thread here is more concerned with stories about the lives of Christ and Baha’u’llah… “Theology” deserves it’s own venue. Islam in my view has had various theologies over time… I think generally we Baha’is will not align ourselves with anyone school of theology that has been extant nor do we have schools of theology as in Christianity.

Drac16 wrot
  • Admittedly, I know very little of Baha’u’llah, but the more I learn about Baha’u’llah, the more I see that he was simply ignorant, like in the case of his claims about Imam Husayn [may Allah be pleased with him]. Baha’u’llah claimed to be the returned incarnation of Husayn ibn Ali [may Allah be pleased with him], but there’s not a scintilla of evidence that Husayn ibn Ali believed in anything other than Tawheed. The idea that Husayn ibn Ali, in his re-incarnated form, would be claiming to be a manifestation of God, which contradicts the Islamic prinicple of Tawheed, is absolutely absurd.*
My comment:

In terms of prophecy Baha’u’llah refers to Imam Husayn:

Consider the eagerness with which certain peoples and nations have anticipated the return of Imam-Husayn, whose coming, after the appearance of the Qá’im, hath been prophesied, in days past, by the chosen ones of God, exalted be His glory.
Code:
          (Baha'u'llah, Gleanings from the Writings of Baha'u'llah, p. 12)
Baha’is do not accept the doctrine of reincarnation nor do we say that Baha’u’llah is a reincarnation of Imam Husayn… We do believe the prophecies have been fulfilled about him.

For more information on the concept of the Manifestation of God see:

bahaikipedia.org/Manifestation_of_God

Drac16 wrote:

*Husayn [may Allah be pleased with him] was one of the greatest muslims of the second generation of the sahaba; he was not a blasphemer.
*

My comment:

Yes I agree with you:

Baha’u’llah does make reference to Imam Husayn such as:

“For no warrior could be found on earth more excellent and nearer to God than Husayn, son of Ali, so peerless and incomparable was he. “There was none to equal or to match him in the world.” Yet, thou must have heard what befell him. “God’s malison on the head of the people of tyranny!”[3]

[3 Qur’án 11:18.]

Were the verse “And verily Our host shall conquer” to be literally interpreted, it is evident that it would in no wise be applicable to the chosen Ones of God and His hosts, inasmuch as Husayn, whose heroism was manifest as the sun, crushed and subjugated, quaffed at last the cup of martyrdom in Karbila, the land of Taff.
Code:
          (Baha'u'llah, The Kitab-i-Iqan, p. 126)
 
No, Baha’u’llah is going against what the Apostles themselves intended the Gospels to mean. It’s not about a “more recent Revelation,” it’s about one man’s opinion (Baha’u’lah’s) going against at least a dozen men’s firsthand experience (the Apostles’). If the Apostles themselves along with at least 500 others testify that they personally saw Jesus physically and literally risen from the dead, are you going to reject their personal and unanimous testimony in favor of a man who lived 1800 years after the fact and had no evidence or testimony to substantiate his claims about the nature of Christ’s Resurrection being a merely spiritual or metaphorical affair?

I’m sorry, but I’d rather trust the author of a book to tell me what it means, rather than some random guy who appeared on the scene 1800 years later, with no connection to the original author. You Baha’is might have had an argument–had you not been arguing against a substantial, visible line of unbroken teaching and testimony that goes clear back to the Apostles themselves. The Baha’i argument about the nature of Christ’s Resurrection relies on ignoring what the Apostles themselves testified on the matter.
Shiranui,
. I would like to address the emotional aspect of religion, for it has always been at the heart of the subject. For whatever reason, God made us the way He did, and when the subject of religion comes up, a lot of times people get riled. Do you know what I mean?

. So I’m not trying to say this in reference to anyone in particular, but in general, because people get riled about religion, and whenever a Prophet appears, people attack Him, and His followers, I think that survival plays a role in how certain events are portrayed.

. Here’s where I’m going with this line of thought. In the subject of the Resurrection of Christ, something happened. What it was is a very profound event. Some people “saw” that He was risen, and the language in which that was conveyed was in the form of a literal event, for people were very literate in their world view at that time, having difficulty even with the phrase: “Ye must be born again”

. That some people “saw” that Jesus was alive, like if I just told you that I “saw” that Jesus is alive, and you told somebody else and so on, how would that be recorded? As a literal event, right? Certainly at those times, as they clearly could not conceptualize that He “lived” other than that His body also lived.

. The trouble starts when He appears and disappears, as in: “He entered the room, not using the door” Put that next to: “Wherever two or three gather and make mention of Me, there I am also.” Now in the latter example, He never appears in physical form, right? So what I am suggesting is that when His Presence was so strongly felt and His true Reality was understood, that is, that He was “with them”, this was told and passed on to others, but received as a literal event, for they could not imagine how He could live and be amongst them otherwise.

. This is how I deal with it with my rational mind, without having to do a frontal lobotomy, if you see what I mean. He “appears” to me every now and then, such as when two or more gather, and I feel His presence, and I might say that I “see” that He lives, and is present, or that He “enters” the room, not using the door, etc.

. Viewing reality in this way does not make me a non-believer in Christ. Rather, it means that I understand that He lives, even after they killed His body, and that I understand something about the way people tell stories and pass them along…

Peace, my friend.

.
 
I will ask that this thread be closed, it appears that there is not much to be discussed re the Life of Christ from our Christian Friends and I do not wish to post one sided stories. 🤷

I did not want to get into Religious debate, I just wanted to share some Good heart warming stories. 😊

God Bless all

Regards Tony
 
Tony,
. I hear what you’re saying. Some old axes still wanting to be ground down, I guess. If it is closed, please open another and let me know the topic. Thanks, daler

.
 
Tony,
. I hear what you’re saying. Some old axes still wanting to be ground down, I guess. If it is closed, please open another and let me know the topic. Thanks, daler

.
Dale - I have started a Thread called - Common Principals of Faith we Share - Link - forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=842333

Although this thread was started in good Faith, it was using references not recognized by the Catholic Church, which became apparent it was unfair to continue.

I hope all will join us in fellowship at the new thread, and we can enjoy talking about the virtues Man must live by and lift our Hearts to greater Service 😉 👍 🙂

God Bless all Regards Tony
 
I will ask that this thread be closed, it appears that there is not much to be discussed re the Life of Christ from our Christian Friends and I do not wish to post one sided stories. 🤷

I did not want to get into Religious debate, I just wanted to share some Good heart warming stories. 😊

God Bless all

Regards Tony
A wise decision. Thanks.
 
I think this is a lovely thread Tony.

Some people cannot handle the fact that Baha’u’llah’s life was so authentically recorded. It challenges their identity and their family traditions.

This shouldn’t stop someone from sharing some stories which they find inspiring…
 
since bahaullah denies that all men are born in to sin, there is no way bahaullah can understand the meaning of the Gospels.

based on what bahaullah has written and what his followers have written, it is evident that bahaullah was invincibly ignorant about the true nature and mission of Jesus Christ.

in fact, in a story about Jesus, we learn that Jesus Himself said that people like bahaullah would exist and try to use the Gospel to enhance themselves in a worldy manner. Jesus knew the hearts of men and He knew that there would be others who would try to trade on His life for their own purposes.

is that the kind of story about Jesus that we are supposed to be relating in this thread?
 
according to some of the stories i have read and heard about Jesus, He came to save sinners.

those who do not believe they are sinners are not going to believe that they need the salvation that is available to them ONLY through the life, death and resurrection of Jesus Christ.

Jesus is the Savior and Redeemer of the World. once salvation has been granted, there is nothing more needed.
 
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