Story of Noah: Who believes it to be real?

[Bubble]

I wasn’t sure how to vote. I believe that Noah existed. I believe he built the ark because God told him to. I believe there were animals on the ark. I believe there was a great flood that covered a large amount of land.

But, as for two of every animal? Perhaps from the writer’s perspective this was true, but I find it doubtful. I find it doubtful the entire world was flooded, but I believe it seemed that way to Noah and everybody in a large radius. The story is truthful, but is every fact to be interpreted literally . . . nah.

 

[roanoker]

Well, our Lord Jesus sure believed it, as is amply affirmed by scripture. Also Peter. That’s good enough for me. It was a miraculous event, and I believe in miracles…

 

[lucybeebee]

Maybe it was a localized event. I know that there was a violent volcanic explosion in antiquity on the Greek island of Thera that utterly destroyed the island and caused terrible flooding through much of lands mentioned in the Bible. That or a similar occurence could have caused the Flood.

 

[itinerant1]

Well, our Lord Jesus sure believed it, as is amply affirmed by scripture. Also Peter. That’s good enough for me. It was a miraculous event, and I believe in miracles…

The fact that Christ and Peter refer to the story is not evidence that the account is historical. It only means that the account is the word of God, and allegorical meanings are being understood, i.e. Baptism, etc.

The literal sense in Scripture is the basis for the other other senses of the text. Hence, references to the Noah story found in the New Testament must first be references to the literal sense. Yet the literal sense of words does not neccessarily mean that the genre is an historical one. It may or may not be. So, no conclusion about the historicity of an account can be reasonably drawn from the fact there are N.T. references to the account in question.

Likewise, the literal sense of the creation account in Genesis 1 is that God created the world in six days. However, the literal sense, as previously indicated, is the basis for the other senses or meanings of the text. A literalist approach to Genesis 1 takes the literal sense to actually be an historical sense indicating a direct creation in six days. On the other hand, St. Augustine took the literal sense to be the basis of an allegorical sense, which means he interpreted the creation account allegorically, at least in part. Consistent with this approach, St. Augustine taught evolutionary ideas from a theological and philosophical perspective. Specifically, I am referring to his doctrine of rationis seminales.

Furthermore, St. Thomas Aquinas says in regard to Genesis 1, that a direct creation in six days is favored by a superficial reading of Scripture.

When we make a reference to the creation account it is first, in the order of the logic of language, to the literal sense. Next, to possible other senses, and there may be several other senses and deeper meanings of a single text. The literal sense itself of Genesis 1 tells us many things, such as that the Sabbath is ordained by God since he rested on the seventh day.

I will note here that a close study of Genesis 1 reveals that the human author created a poetical arrangement of God’s works. On just the human level, he created a true masterpiece. And God’s creative act is a miracle no matter what the senses of the text are.

Some people get into the habit of thinking that God’s creative act was a one time event. However, creation is a ongoing miracle. God continously maintains His creation in existence. And it is in Him that we move and have our being. We are in God, and God is in us.

Peace,

itinerant1 :tiphat:

 

[itinerant1]

Maybe it was a localized event. I know that there was a violent volcanic explosion in antiquity on the Greek island of Thera that utterly destroyed the island and caused terrible flooding through much of lands mentioned in the Bible. That or a similar occurence could have caused the Flood.

Okay. How then, according to your hypothesis, would you explain the fact that the Epic of Gilgamesh has so many O.T. parallels?

itinerant1 :tiphat:

 

[peary]

**Nothing surprises me in this world anymore. I figure that if human beings can construct the pyramids of Egypt that have lasted for almost 5000 years, there is no reason why a large ark could not have been constructed too.

Personally, I believe partially in the Noah’s Ark story, but also think that there may have been several other large vessels throughout regions where flooding occurred. Although the Ark story can be traced back to Sumerian and early Babylonian legends, there is nothing to say that cultures throughout the world where flooding after the last Ice Age occurred didn’t save what they could by building floating vessels to weather out the catastrophes.**

 

[lucybeebee]

Okay. How then, according to your hypothesis, would you explain the fact that the Epic of Gilgamesh has so many O.T. parallels?

itinerant1 :tiphat:

We’ve seen in our own time how devastating natural disasters can be over a wide geographical area (e.g., the tsunami several years back, Hurricane Katrina, earthquakes). I was thinking that a similar occurance could have occurred to cause the flood that would have affected the lands mentioned in the Bible, but not other places in the world. Hence, other people such as the Mesapotamians, etc would have experienced it and the Epic of Gilgamesh would have resulted.

 

[Abbadon]

I wasn’t sure how to vote. I believe that Noah existed. I believe he built the ark because God told him to. I believe there were animals on the ark. I believe there was a great flood that covered a large amount of land.

But, as for two of every animal? Perhaps from the writer’s perspective this was true, but I find it doubtful. I find it doubtful the entire world was flooded, but I believe it seemed that way to Noah and everybody in a large radius. The story is truthful, but is every fact to be interpreted literally . . . nah.

Well i didn’t consider varying degrees of the analogy. I believe there was a flood and someone (many people) of different customs may have built boats. Or maybe people after the flood just assumed someone built boats. Really who knows. I do look at the evidence and see that the tale of Noah, like king arthur, merlin and the round table. Are based on at least an initial story.

That is at the way other end of the spectrum but would still apply to the answer of the analogy…

SIgh yea i cant really ask a hot topic question and assume it wont be debated. Its just thats its been debated over and over and over and over and the points never change… There is nothing new, no real new experince to gain from a debate for me. That is why didnt want a debate. But if you feel you can gain something from it i guess go for it.

I am interested that the adam and eve did not spark such a debate…

 

[itinerant1]

We’ve seen in our own time how devastating natural disasters can be over a wide geographical area (e.g., the tsunami several years back, Hurricane Katrina, earthquakes). I was thinking that a similar occurance could have occurred to cause the flood that would have affected the lands mentioned in the Bible, but not other places in the world. Hence, other people such as the Mesapotamians, etc would have experienced it and the Epic of Gilgamesh would have resulted.

Good point, lucybeebee. Many people have posed the possibility you describe. However, there is a chronology problem with the single flood hypothesis. All of the various Mesopotamian versions of the flood, (Gilgamesh being the longest one to have survived), agree in locating the flood to a previous time that was very long ago. The various stories are preserving the memory of some great disaster that occurred in prehistoric time, a time greatly pre-dating historical records. However, we cannot assert a very distant pre-historical time for the biblical flood. Therefore, the Mesopotamian accounts and the biblical account are not referring to the same incident.

In addition, excavations in the Mesopotamian region reveal deposits of silt from more than one flood of great magnitude. However, no deposit has been found that indicates a flood of the proportion described in the flood stories. And no findings are chronologically coincident with the flood in either the Mesopotamian or biblical accounts, even assuming a flood that was more regional. (Over time, Mesopotamian story telling exaggerated the magnitude of the flood so that it covered the entire known earth.)

Let us not forget that the deluge is only one of many parallels between the Epic of Gilgamesh and the biblical deluge. The similarities are too close and too many in number to affirm that the biblical account was constructed independently of earlier Mesopotamian accounts.

Keep in mind the Noah story while considering these parallels:

In the Mesopotamian story, the hero is called Ut-napishtim. When the gods order a flood, they reveal their plan to Ut-napishtim, who is instructed to build a boat. The boat is a cube, with sides that are 10 dozen cubits each. Noah’s ark is not actually a boat. It is a rectangular box.

Ut-napishtim is instructed to take necessary provisions, as well as the beasts and wild creatures of the field.

After the flood, Ut-napishtim’s ark settles on Mt. Nisir.

Ut-napishtim sends out birds: a dove, a swallow, and a raven. When the raven fails to return, Ut-napishtim and his wife leave the ark.

Ut-napishtim then offers a sacrifice.

Ut-napishtim and his wife are given immortality. Similarly, Yahweh bestows various blessings upon Noah and his family. (Gen 9)

Parallels like these indicate that the Hebrew writer re-worked the Mesopotamian deluge story, and gave it a true theology.

itinerant1 :tiphat:

 

[Bamm]

You can choose to believe man who isn’t as smart as he thinks he is or you can choose to believe God.

I choose God.

Bamm

 

[mschrank]

What about the other flood myths? Did you know that a whole lot of cultures, totally geographically seperated, have flood myths that are astoundingly similar?

That’s why I think it was a real event that happened a long, long time ago. This oral legend was reworked by the Hebrews to give it a theological significance.

Something happened. Beyond that, we can’t know. That’s why its called prehistory, if we could set a date and figure out what really happened, it’d be history.

 

[itinerant1]

What about the other flood myths? Did you know that a whole lot of cultures, totally geographically seperated, have flood myths that are astoundingly similar?

That’s why I think it was a real event that happened a long, long time ago. This oral legend was reworked by the Hebrews to give it a theological significance.

Something happened. Beyond that, we can’t know. That’s why its called prehistory, if we could set a date and figure out what really happened, it’d be history.

Sorry, but I think you completely misssed the particular points I made about chronology and geological evidence. These points need to be considered when looking at other deluge stories. The Mesopotamian stories refer to an event that happened not only in prehistory, but way back in pre-history. The biblical account is not of an event the was prehistorical.

Next, there is no geologic evidence to indicate a deluge on the magnitude portrayed in the Mesopotamian and biblical stories.

These facts of chronology, plus archaeological and geological findings need to be kept in mind when looking at deluge stories from other cultures around the world.

In addition, non-mesopotamian stories do not have the same parallels to the biblical account as does the Epic of Gilgamesh.

In regard to comparing stories cross-culturally, some cultural anthropologist discount the Creation story in Genesis as being Divinely inspired because there are so many similar stories around the world. In making this judgment these scientists miss seeing that which is unique to the Genesis account and which makes it, despite any similarities to other creation stories, truly unlike any other culture’s story.

If you have particular deluge stories in mind that you think indicate a world-wide flood, just provide links to them, and, if possible, links to an analysis of the stories by a reputable scholar or scientist. Keep in mind what has already been said here about the timeline and geological evidence. I am looking for deluge stories that are “outstandingly similar”, as well as scientific evidence that contradicts what I have said here. If a story refers to a world-wide flood, that fact by itself does not constitute proof a global deluge. More facts are needed to support the conclusion.

itinerant1 :tiphat:

 

[Abbadon]

If the epic of Gilgamesh is pre Noah isn’t it possible that Noah is just a re write of Gigamesh?

Damnit i said to my self i wouldn’t get into this…

 

[itinerant1]

If the epic of Gilgamesh is pre Noah isn’t it possible that Noah is just a re write of Gigamesh?

Damnit i said to my self i wouldn’t get into this…

Let me remind you that this is supposed to be a poll, and not a debate. lol

Yes, what I have been saying all along is that the Hebrews often reworked Mesopotamian stories. The Noah story is a clear example of this being done under the influence of Divine inspiration. This version gives the Israelites a deluge account that has a corrected or true theology.

And so the scribes of Israel recorded for all posterity that the teachers of the Law began sticking out their tongues, waving Noah manuscripts in the air, and bragging to the neighbors of Israel, with these solemn words: “Our flood story is better than yours. Nah, Nah, Nah. Take that you heathens!”

itinerant1 :tiphat:

 

[Abbadon]

Let me remind you that this is supposed to be a poll, and not a debate. lol

Yes, what I have been saying all along is that the Hebrews often reworked Mesopotamian stories. The Noah story is a clear example of this being done under the influence of Divine inspiration. This version gives the Israelites a deluge account that has a corrected or true theology.

Can you give me some more examples of mesopotaniam stories? Does the code of hammarabi count, (ten commandments)?

“clear example of this being done under the influence”
How is it a clear example of divine inspiration? In what way?

“has a corrected or true theology”
What do you mean by that?

And so the scribes of Israel recorded for all posterity that the teachers of the Law began sticking out their tongues, waving Noah manuscripts in the air, and bragging to the neighbors of Israel, with these solemn words: “Our flood story is better than yours. Nah, Nah, Nah. Take that you heathens!”

itinerant1 :tiphat:

I don’t actually know what your trying to say here, the top half is something a catholic would say yet the bottom half sounds like an insult…

 

[Steve40]

2Peter 3-7 says if you don’t believe it you are a scoffer. The first Pope does not speak well of those who would not believe that water covered the whole earth. Listen to the Pope.

 

[Abbadon]

2Peter 3-7 says if you don’t believe it you are a scoffer. The first Pope does not speak well of those who would not believe that water covered the whole earth. Listen to the Pope.

And the bible says we should be circumcised and when women are raped they have to marry thier rapist after the rapist pays the father. No one takes 100% of the bible as relevant for today. Perhaps in the past it was.

 

[Steve40]

And the bible says we should be circumcised and when women are raped they have to marry thier rapist after the rapist pays the father. No one takes 100% of the bible as relevant for today. Perhaps in the past it was.

No. The first Pope said we didn’t need to be circomcised. See the Council of Jeruselem. I reiterate. Listen to the First Pope.

 

[itinerant1]

Can you give me some more examples of mesopotaniam stories? Does the code of hammarabi count, (ten commandments)?

“clear example of this being done under the influence”
How is it a clear example of divine inspiration? In what way?

“has a corrected or true theology”
What do you mean by that?

I don’t actually know what your trying to say here, the top half is something a catholic would say yet the bottom half sounds like an insult…

Hammurabi’s Code:
There are three types of law: (1) divine or eternal law (2) natural moral law (3) civil or postive law. Divine law is revealed in Scripture. Natural law is the participation by rational creatures in divine law. Civil law are those that society makes.

The natural moral law is a reflections of eternal law. Civils that are true law reflect the natural law. The Code of Hammurabi is an example of civil law. Many of its proscriptions, such as those against murder, are common to many societies. The Ten Commandments are a revelation of divine law. All, except one, are found in natural law and can be naturally known by man. This is why civil laws from culture to culture throughout history forbid the same things. Most societies have forbidden, theft, and murder, and so on. The societies that are exceptions have erred in interpreting or applying natural law.

The point here is to show that existence of natural of law, in part, accounts for similarities of laws between cultures.

The code of Hammurabi is not strictly a code. It is not the complete codification of existing law. When compared with other records of Mesopotamian law we see that there existed in the region a common customary laws between peoples. Hammurabi’s code was influenced by customary law. And in turn the Hebrews were influenced by this customary law and Hammurabi’s code. Israel, though, has laws unique to itself, such as the prohibition against worshipping other gods.

"How is it a clear example of divine inspiration?":
This is a misread. I am saying that the Noah story is a clear example of Hebrews re-working Meopotamian stories. Then I am stating that this reworking of the deluge story was done under divine inspiration. The story of Noah is the word of God, it is Scripture. I am alluding to the fact that the biblical writers use customary ways of writing, methods and literary genres common to their cultural milieu. The fact that the inspired writer is working under the influence of the Holy Spirit doe not mean that he composes differently than what is customary for his time. Inspiration in not dictation. Biblical literature is fully divine and fully human, just as Christ was fully divine and fully human. Scripture has all the human literary aspects to it as does non-biblical writing, except for error, just as Christ was fully human except for sin. So, one society’s re-working of stories from another is a relatively common thing throughout history. The Noah story is a clear example of the Hebrews composing a story in such a manner.

Corrected Theology:
I explained this in one of my previous posts. Briefly, Gilgamesh contains erroneous theology such as belief in multiple gods, their anger is not based on what is right and wrong, etc. These types of false beliefs are corrected in the Noah account.

"I don’t actually know what your trying to say here.":
Neither do I. It’s a joke. It’s my ailing dry sense of humor. You can just ignore it. Put some white-out on your monitor if you need to.

itinerant1 :tiphat:

 

[Abbadon]

Thanks itinerant1 that cleared things up… sorry i just found your post a bit confusing…