B
buffalo
Guest
I am in agreement we should test.
Again, the issue is God can create the universe, but He cannot get all the creatures in the Ark. Don’t you see the issue?
So could He or couldn’t He?
- Status
Again, the issue is God can create the universe, but He cannot get all the creatures in the Ark. Don’t you see the issue?
So could He or couldn’t He?
G
Gottle_of_Geer
Guest
Children & dolls have an interest in giving the answers they do - for an unbiassed response, ask a
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/3/3a/Teddy_bear.JPG/800px-Teddy_bear.JPG
G
Gottle_of_Geer
Guest
Not if the Author is the Eternal God 
, it wouldn’t.
Jesus Christ was special, but that doesn’t mean His Blood was formed in Heaven from Divine blood-cells, or that He wept in a Divine way with tears too spiritual for anyone but angels to know about. It meant He was fully, really, truly, thoroughly & unambiguously human through & through, & no less so for being the Eternal Word.Similarly with the Biblical books - that the Bible is special, does not make one jot less truly human, & subject to human fortunes & ways of speech. Both are “incarnate” in the world, so both share in certain limitations, which are consequences of their being what they are. If this were not so, neither would be intelligible to limited beings such as we are.
J
Jesus_N_Cherie
Guest
If you believed what the Bible says, you might just know the answer to this one.
PURIFICATION!!!
cherie
P
Philipp
Guest
A good morning to all: It apparently has not occurred to you that Noah and his Creator might have been far more clever than you and would have taken aboard baby dinosaurs and baby megafauna. I suspect they worked out all the other details as well. Back then before the flood folks lived longer and had more “time for discussion.” Maybe that’s why they got in so much trouble too, Ha! A scientist named Woodmorappe has written a book on the subject of Noah’s ark and its occupants and the alleged problems you and others have created ex nihilo.
Therefore, as you drink yoiur bottle of beer, I suggest that you read something other than evolutionary fairy tales books and those that attack Genesis as allegory and myths. Woodmorappe’s book and that of Dr. Larry Azar of Iona College entitled, “Evolution and other Fairy Tales” would be good starts. Both I suspect are on Amazon. Then you can graduate to Fr. Victor’s [Warkulwiz] book, Genesis 1-11. Fr. Victor in addition to the priesthood he also has a Ph.D. in Physics. I suspect he will answer most of the other challenges you and others might suggest.
Moses got it right.
P
peary
Guest
Actually, the Church got it right.A good morning to all: It apparently has not occurred to you that Noah and his Creator might have been far more clever than you and would have taken aboard baby dinosaurs and baby megafauna. I suspect they worked out all the other details as well. Back then before the flood folks lived longer and had more “time for discussion.” Maybe that’s why they got in so much trouble too, Ha! A scientist named Woodmorappe has written a book on the subject of Noah’s ark and its occupants and the alleged problems you and others have created ex nihilo.
Therefore, as you drink yoiur bottle of beer, I suggest that you read something other than evolutionary fairy tales books and those that attack Genesis as allegory and myths. Woodmorappe’s book and that of Dr. Larry Azar of Iona College entitled, “Evolution and other Fairy Tales” would be good starts. Both I suspect are on Amazon. Then you can graduate to Fr. Victor’s [Warkulwiz] book, Genesis 1-11. Fr. Victor in addition to the priesthood he also has a Ph.D. in Physics. I suspect he will answer most of the other challenges you and others might suggest.
Moses got it right.
O
Orogeny
Guest
I claim you have little or no knowledge about geology based on your claims on threads in this forum. You have made that perfectly clear.
Great! How about ASA? They are not real impressed with the work of the RATE people, maybe you can change their minds. I’m sure that they will want to take a look at your results, but what they will be most interested in is your collection methodology, sample selection rational, equipment calibration, etc… I would also suggest that you invite them on one of your field expeditions to collect samples that you can then have analyzed separately so that you can compare results. You know, the stuff that is done in real science.I love field and lab research as hands-on-experience. I am heare to share my 12 field expeditions and C-14 dating lab work and collection of samples for which I have many lab reports.
Soooooooo I’d be happy to send all my “bogus” [as you call them] C-14 reports on dinosaur bones, amber and all the other fossils to a neutral group like CA HQ I’ll also include photos of the footprints excavated when I was there, video tapes of the exhibits at the Creation evidence museum www.creationevidence.org and photos of the many dinosaur depictions worldwide and much more. The only bogus theory I know of is the theory of descent from a common ancestor over giga years which you promote.
As far as your footprints go, forget the photos. Submit the actual prints to them to let them do some testing.
asa3.org/
Really? Which meteorologists? Only one glacier age?
Support what concept? Permafrost is the result of Noah’s flood? I don’t understand what you are referring to here.
Really? The vast amount of sediment is older than the end of the last glacial period? Wow, what a revelation.
Yes, the Missoula floods (there were more than one) were the results of the rapid release of water from large lakes formed from melting glaciers. The Grand Canyon, however, was not carved in the same way. The Grand Canyon is the result of uplift and erosion, not rapid erosion based on a single catastrophic event.The famous Missoula Flood of Montana in the NW USA is evidence one of those “Natural dam breaks”. The formation of the Grand Canyon may be another event in the post flood period; that hypothesis is currently being investigated further as I understand…
Peace
Tim
O
Orogeny
Guest
The NAB says earth. Different meaning. By the way, I don’t dispute that the story is based on a real event. I suspect that it is. However, I too accept the geological record and therefore reject the idea of a global flood.
I don’t think that they thought it was flat. Besides, we are talking about the word of God and He certainly knows that the earth is not flat. Remember, we are discussing this because some people choose to accept the story as a literal history simply because it is in the Bible. The story wasn’t written just for the Israelites, it was written for everyone at all times.
I think you and I are basically on the same page.
Peace
Tim
T
tnystrom
Guest
In my annual read through of Scripture, I came upon verses that made me conclude that Noah’s flood was only regional. In Genesis 6:4 (beginning of Flood narrative) it states, “The Nephilim were on the earth in those days–and also afterwards–when the sons of God went in to the daughters of humans, who bore children to them. These were the heroes that were of old, warriors of renown.”
Remember that is pre-flood. No one should remain nor their descendants after except Noah, if the flood is worldwide.
Turn to Numbers 13: 22, “They went up into the Negeb, and came to Hebron; and Ahiman, Sheshai, and Talmai, the Anakites, were there.” Numbers 13:28, “Yet the people who live in the land are strong, and the towns are fortified and very large; and besides, we saw ***the descendants of Anak ***there.” This is the key, Numbers 13:33, “There we saw the **Nephilim (the Anakites come from the Nephilim); and to ourselves we seemed like grasshoppers, and so we seemed to them.”
If the flood was worldwide and only Noah and family survived to refill the earth then no descendents of preNoahic people could have survived. They could have survived only if the Flood was Not worldwide.
So if we ignore the whole science debate, then holy Scripture shows Noah’s flood to be only regional.
Remember that is pre-flood. No one should remain nor their descendants after except Noah, if the flood is worldwide.
Turn to Numbers 13: 22, “They went up into the Negeb, and came to Hebron; and Ahiman, Sheshai, and Talmai, the Anakites, were there.” Numbers 13:28, “Yet the people who live in the land are strong, and the towns are fortified and very large; and besides, we saw ***the descendants of Anak ***there.” This is the key, Numbers 13:33, “There we saw the **Nephilim (the Anakites come from the Nephilim); and to ourselves we seemed like grasshoppers, and so we seemed to them.”
If the flood was worldwide and only Noah and family survived to refill the earth then no descendents of preNoahic people could have survived. They could have survived only if the Flood was Not worldwide.
So if we ignore the whole science debate, then holy Scripture shows Noah’s flood to be only regional.
B
buffalo
Guest
If God sent a regional flood Noah could have just walked away from it and wouldn’t need an ark. . I think there is more to this.In my annual read through of Scripture, I came upon verses that made me conclude that Noah’s flood was only regional. In Genesis 6:4 (beginning of Flood narrative) it states, “The Nephilim were on the earth in those days–and also afterwards–when the sons of God went in to the daughters of humans, who bore children to them. These were the heroes that were of old, warriors of renown.”
Remember that is pre-flood. No one should remain nor their descendants after except Noah, if the flood is worldwide.
Turn to Numbers 13: 22, “They went up into the Negeb, and came to Hebron; and Ahiman, Sheshai, and Talmai, the Anakites, were there.” Numbers 13:28, “Yet the people who live in the land are strong, and the towns are fortified and very large; and besides, we saw ***the descendants of Anak ***there.” This is the key, Numbers 13:33, “There we saw the ***Nephilim ***(the Anakites come from the Nephilim); and to ourselves we seemed like grasshoppers, and so we seemed to them.”
If the flood was worldwide and only Noah and family survived to refill the earth then no descendents of preNoahic people could have survived. They could have survived only if the Flood was Not worldwide.
So if we ignore the whole science debate, then holy Scripture shows Noah’s flood to be only regional.
G
Gottle_of_Geer
Guest
That makes my point: the adults go in two by two, & their young, making up seven: which explains why there are two sets of instructions given to Noah. So he takes in one pair of Diplodocuses, & five - or even seven - baby Diplodocuses. Which would pose a lot of problems. We are not told that he took on animals still in the egg (which would have eased some problems) - only living animals capable of independent locomotion are indicated. So that rules out storing croc eggs somewhere out of the sun.
Taking in only the babies would be very dangerous - they would be very vulnerable to developmental sicknesses, they would be out of their usual habitat; & they would still take up a lot of space. A baby Diplopodocus would grow, & by the end of the Flood would be larger than at the beginning. Hibernation would not stop that. And they might well have very hearty appetites, like so many young animals. What are they going to be fed on - Oreos ?Oh to be so powerful If the animals lived proportionately long - and why not ? - & even if they were vegetarian, or did not, big animals need feeding. Spiders need to eat flies - did Noah smuggle in a few hundred extra so the black widows would not starve ? If the animals were all shrunk for their “fantastic voyage”, some of the problems are eased, but others are raised
Genesis is not being attacked - just as it’s not an attack on “The Lord of the Rings” to deny that it is an account of historical events. “The Pilgrim’s Progress” & the "Divine Comedy are both allegories, not accounts of journeys in time & space: that doesn’t make them one jot less valuable. It would be absurd to treat any of these books as narratives of real events in time & space.
Woodmorappe’s book and that of Dr. Larry Azar of Iona College entitled, “Evolution and other Fairy Tales” would be good starts. Both I suspect are on Amazon. Then you can graduate to Fr. Victor’s [Warkulwiz] book, Genesis 1-11. Fr. Victor in addition to the priesthood he also has a Ph.D. in Physics. I suspect he will answer most of the other challenges you and others might suggest.
Moses got it right.
Gen. 1-11 is something called “primeval history” - it’s not an account of events that happened; for the creation is not an event in history - it’s an Act of God. As for the Patriarchs down to Noah: how come they have Hebrew names, when they lived around 4,000-5,000 BC ? Hebrew did not exist at the time; it’s a dialect of Canaanite. If Adam is a real person, he should be called by a Sumerian name - but even Sumerian is no older than 3,000-4,000, at the earliest. It’s impossible to take Gen. 1-11 as history. It can still be taken as Divine Scripture & revelation, even so. Thanks for the recommendations though.
P
peary
Guest
**from wikipedia - which gets things ‘right’ once in awhile! -
“The Nephilim were on the earth in those days, and also afterward, when the sons of God came in to the daughters of men, and they bore children to them. Those were the mighty men who were of old, men of renown.” Gen. 6:1-4
According to the New American Bible, the Nephilim appear as part of the “increasing wickedness of mankind”. Their mention does not account for the “giants” of Canaan, whom the Israelites also called the Nephilim, since none survived the Flood. The reference introduces the story of the flood with a moral orientation.
Also, the commentary suggests that the phrase “(as well as afterward)” is a reference to the Book of Numbers 13:33, how the Israelites likened the tall aborigines (“Anakim”) to the Nephilim, possibly due to seeing the very tall structures of Canaan that appeared to have been built by a race of giants.
**Anakim *(“the [long]-necked ones”) ***
There are many non-sacred writings (nonBiblical) that make mention of Anakim, or Anakites, and that they resided in the land south of Canaan.
And here is an interesting quote, from an Ethiopian manuscript known as the Conflict of Adam Book 3, chap. 4:
*“Certain wise men of old wrote concerning them, and say in their [sacred] books, that angels came down from heaven, and mingled with the daughters of Cain, who bare unto them these giants. But these [wise men] err in what they say. God forbid such a thing, that angels who are spirits, should be found committing sin with human beings. Never, that cannot be. And if such a thing were of the nature of angels, or Satans, that fell, they would not leave one woman on earth, undefiled… But many men say, that angels came down from heaven, and joined themselves to women, and had children by them. This cannot be true. But they were children of Seth, who were of the children of Adam, that dwelt on the mountain, high up, while they preserved their virginity, their innocence and their glory like angels; and were then called ‘angels of God.’ But when they transgressed and mingled with the children of Cain, and begat children, ill-informed men said, that angels had come down from heaven, and mingled with the daughters of men, who bare them giants.” *
And here’s something else to ponder:
In his journal, Joshua also mentions Jericho’s giants. This brief reference, recorded in Joshua 6:2, quotes the Lord as saying to him: *“See! I have given Jericho into your hand, its king, and the mighty men of valor.” *The mighty men here denotes the Gibborim, this phrasing being derived from the *same *Hebrew word that Moses used in Genesis 6:4 to signify the giants. Thus, Joshua indicates that when Jericho’s walls fell outward and the Israelites charged over the dusty pile of rubble into the city some of the combatants they met and slew were the Gibborim. An ancient tradition, incidentally, confirms this scripture, for it relates that some of Jericho’s giants escaped the doomed city and fled to Africa.
And what of Africa’s tallest tribal people? A tribe of giants survives in the Sudan, but apparently little has been written about them - the Masai in Kenya and the giant Watutsi in Ruanda-Urundi, who are cousins to the Hamitic Sudanese. An example of their gigantic but very slender stature may be seen in Manute Bol, the seven-foot-seven-inch pro basketball giant, who hails from this region.
There are some theories that the Watusi are the descendants of Joshua’s giants that he found in the region of Canaan, and who fled to Africa.
You know, it makes sense to me!**
“The Nephilim were on the earth in those days, and also afterward, when the sons of God came in to the daughters of men, and they bore children to them. Those were the mighty men who were of old, men of renown.” Gen. 6:1-4
According to the New American Bible, the Nephilim appear as part of the “increasing wickedness of mankind”. Their mention does not account for the “giants” of Canaan, whom the Israelites also called the Nephilim, since none survived the Flood. The reference introduces the story of the flood with a moral orientation.
Also, the commentary suggests that the phrase “(as well as afterward)” is a reference to the Book of Numbers 13:33, how the Israelites likened the tall aborigines (“Anakim”) to the Nephilim, possibly due to seeing the very tall structures of Canaan that appeared to have been built by a race of giants.
**Anakim *(“the [long]-necked ones”) ***
There are many non-sacred writings (nonBiblical) that make mention of Anakim, or Anakites, and that they resided in the land south of Canaan.
And here is an interesting quote, from an Ethiopian manuscript known as the Conflict of Adam Book 3, chap. 4:
*“Certain wise men of old wrote concerning them, and say in their [sacred] books, that angels came down from heaven, and mingled with the daughters of Cain, who bare unto them these giants. But these [wise men] err in what they say. God forbid such a thing, that angels who are spirits, should be found committing sin with human beings. Never, that cannot be. And if such a thing were of the nature of angels, or Satans, that fell, they would not leave one woman on earth, undefiled… But many men say, that angels came down from heaven, and joined themselves to women, and had children by them. This cannot be true. But they were children of Seth, who were of the children of Adam, that dwelt on the mountain, high up, while they preserved their virginity, their innocence and their glory like angels; and were then called ‘angels of God.’ But when they transgressed and mingled with the children of Cain, and begat children, ill-informed men said, that angels had come down from heaven, and mingled with the daughters of men, who bare them giants.” *
And here’s something else to ponder:
In his journal, Joshua also mentions Jericho’s giants. This brief reference, recorded in Joshua 6:2, quotes the Lord as saying to him: *“See! I have given Jericho into your hand, its king, and the mighty men of valor.” *The mighty men here denotes the Gibborim, this phrasing being derived from the *same *Hebrew word that Moses used in Genesis 6:4 to signify the giants. Thus, Joshua indicates that when Jericho’s walls fell outward and the Israelites charged over the dusty pile of rubble into the city some of the combatants they met and slew were the Gibborim. An ancient tradition, incidentally, confirms this scripture, for it relates that some of Jericho’s giants escaped the doomed city and fled to Africa.
And what of Africa’s tallest tribal people? A tribe of giants survives in the Sudan, but apparently little has been written about them - the Masai in Kenya and the giant Watutsi in Ruanda-Urundi, who are cousins to the Hamitic Sudanese. An example of their gigantic but very slender stature may be seen in Manute Bol, the seven-foot-seven-inch pro basketball giant, who hails from this region.
There are some theories that the Watusi are the descendants of Joshua’s giants that he found in the region of Canaan, and who fled to Africa.
You know, it makes sense to me!**
P
Philipp
Guest
Thanks Peary for your successful search and response. It adds to the flavor of this discourse and the search for a more complete explanation. The Nephilim had always been a puzzler for me so I’m glad that the subject came up.
Regarding tall basketball players, one named O’neil [with a muslim first name I won’t try and write] who plays for I think Miami is 7 ft or taller and has a 16 inch long foot which is the length of the first series of ichnites found along the Paluxy River TX ledges with dinosaurs prints. There is even a 22-24 inch long giant human footprint series of three [pristine] that I have seen on July 4, 1983 that had just been uncovered under tons of rocks in the second strata the previous week. That would make this fellow 10 to 12 feet tall which is roughly the height of Goliath of the Bible.
Incidentally a 12 foot long skeleton was allegedly found in a tomb in Italy in the 19th century but supposedly disintegrated upon trying to move the burial box. If the story is true perhaps the Romans used him in one of their circuses and he could have been from Africa. There is no way to prove the above now but I do have the Paluxy footprint cast of the 22-24 inch print in my fossil storage area.
J
Jesus_N_Cherie
Guest
Thank you. I was troubled about it, but I see now that it is explainable. I do however have a request of you. My mind cannot always make sense of it. So, correct me if I am wrong. What you are saying is that the flood did happen, and the Nephelim were destoyed with it. That doesn’t contradict the Bible. And that these men that the Isrealited found in Jericho were descendents of Seth, son of Noah, right? Please explain the relevance of them living as angels in Noah’s time, in relation to the Fall of Jericho…is there a relation between the two? It seems like these men who lived “like angels” would have been destroyed in the flood. So, are the Africans that you were speaking of those of from the angel like men?Thanks Peary for your successful search and response. It adds to the flavor of this discourse and the search for a more complete explanation. The Nephilim had always been a puzzler for me so I’m glad that the subject came up.
Regarding tall basketball players, one named O’neil [with a muslim first name I won’t try and write] who plays for I think Miami is 7 ft or taller and has a 16 inch long foot which is the length of the first series of ichnites found along the Paluxy River TX ledges with dinosaurs prints. There is even a 22-24 inch long giant human footprint series of three [pristine] that I have seen on July 4, 1983 that had just been uncovered under tons of rocks in the second strata the previous week. That would make this fellow 10 to 12 feet tall which is roughly the height of Goliath of the Bible.
Incidentally a 12 foot long skeleton was allegedly found in a tomb in Italy in the 19th century but supposedly disintegrated upon trying to move the burial box. If the story is true perhaps the Romans used him in one of their circuses and he could have been from Africa. There is no way to prove the above now but I do have the Paluxy footprint cast of the 22-24 inch print in my fossil storage area.
Ya know, either way, it doesn’t form a true contradiction. What is to say that somewhere in Noah or his wife’s genetics that were passed on to Seth there were none of them of the Nephelims? So, it is very possible…like the trait of the color of eyes that can and does skip a few generations sometimes…that those in Jericho were descendents of Seth…Noah…and the genetic trait became dominant in this tribe of people. It could have passed right through Noah and/or his wife.
Does that make sense, Phillip and Peary?
P
peary
Guest
**OK. Let me see if this makes sense (sometimes I have to rewrite things so they make sense to me too!):
What I am saying is that there is no geological evidence for a worldwide flood that killed off all living things. But there is a lot of geological evidence of massive floods and deluges in certain regions of the world as the last Ice Age was ending.
I believe the story of Noah in the bible insofar that he was victim of a massive regional flood. We know that there was one in the Tigris-Euphrates Valley as well as a deluge that filled up much of the Persian Gulf. I believe the origins of the Noah story originated from either of those.
According to ancient Ethiopian writings (which I find interesting), the Nephilim were men, not ‘angels’ because angels cannot breed with human beings. The writings indicate that they were quite tall and lived south of Canaan. Through wars, they were pushed south into Africa. The Watusi and other tribes that genetically have very tall people are the descendants of the Nephilim.
I hope this makes more sense.**
P
Philipp
Guest
I also have read that there was a massive post glacier flood in Siberia or what was once central USSR, or maybe both. But I had not heard about the filling of “much of the Persian Gulf”’; but it does make sense. I will, like youi,try and express my thoughts and observations a little differently. I hope it helps.
For 40 years scientists refused to believe the studies of a famous pioneering geologist at the University of Chicago as his research seemed at the time to support the flood of Noah as his hypothesis called for an extremely destructive flood to both sedimentary and magmatic rock strata and spoke of a 400 foot deep or so wall of water moving at a 40 to 100miles/hour if my memory serves me right. [The Missoula floods and The Scablands of the NW USA.]. At least the Chicago geologist was able to get his technical papers printed in technical Journals of his day. Those of us who wish to show our evidences for Noah’s flood hypothesis must be satisfied to have their peer reviewed papers printed ONLY in the Creation Science Quarterly and NOT main stream journals like Science, Nature, or the Quaternary Review.
Perhaps thoughtful mainstream scientists will someday cease to doubt the pioneering studies of scientists who claim that there is ample evidence for a world-wide watery cataclysm well before the now recognized regional ones.
The evidence is overwhelming for the major flood event in that dinosaur, coal, amber and other fossils in these huge amounts of sediments have been radiocarabon dated and yield C-14 ages in the range of 20,000 to 50,000 RC years [for good scientific reasons these dates may be too old]. Even diamonds that are allegedly over a billion years in age that erupt from the bowels of the earth give C-14 dates of 58,000 to 80,000 years old as I have repeatedly pointed out and documented with peer reviewed papers. The very sensitive Accelerated Mass Spectrometer unit was used to obtain these dates with an upper limit around 100,000 RC years.
The evidence for such a flood is also overwhelming in that the massive numbers of less mobile creatures are at the bottom of the sedimetary geologic column and the more mobile ones near the top of the column [man, including giants and dinosaurs].
There were also survivers of Noah’s flood including the participants on this thread and dinosaurs as depicted in the famous Nile and Sapphori Israel mosaics, Jewish and Buddhist temples, Peruvian Ica Stones, Mexican clay figurines, the Grand Canyon, USA and other locations.
To view the evidences that man and dinosaur coexisted in time and that the alleged 65 million years betwen man and dinosaurs does NOT exist one can search the Internet for the following topics: Fossil human footprints with dinosaurs, the age of the earth, C-14 dating of coal and diamond, Guy Berthault (sedimentology), and Dennis Swift (dinosaur depictions).
Someday the truth will even get into the media and the world will be the better off for it. Moses and the church fathers got it right.
S
SFH
Guest
I believe such a flood is probably historical, but it is difficult from the text to determine how much of the narrative is hyperbole, theological polemic, and historical narrative.
When I say, “Everyone came to the party.” I don’t necessarily mean every single person in the entire world. So it’s possible that when the Bible talks about the flood covering the whole earth, the Sacred Writer may be using the term as a figure of speech to describe the Holy Lands.
God certainly didn’t include the narrative of the flood in the Bible to provide us with a geology lesson. It’s presence in the Bible is to provide spiritual guidance, and we should focus on that.
B
Brian_Millar
Guest
The Nephram (spelled incorrectly) are the demons we deal with via needing an exocism!!!
P
peary
Guest
**Please read my post # 534. Demons and fallen angels CANNOT have sex with human beings because they are a totally different part of Creation. They can seduce one’s mind into believing that this has occurred, but it is deception.
The Nephilim were exactly what the bible says they were: giants, and probably ancestors to today’s Watusi and Suda tribes. **
- Status