Story of Noah: Who believes it to be real?

[Philipp]

Brian, I am referring to those Catholics and even many protestant fundamentalists who have been homeschooled. Parents who are homeschooling their children are teaching them about Christ and the Bible in traditional ways. That is one of the main reasons that they are homeschooling. They are totally opposed to what the world wants to teach them, so they are teaching them themselves. And these kids are so awesome in their faith. And they are going to the top notch school, because they are scoring extremely well on the college entrance exams. There are soooo many of them now a days.
I live in a community…the New Orleans, Louisiana area. The Catholic Charasmatic Movement is really big around here. And it holds to the very traditional beliefs of the Apostles. If we question, it is only because we want to understand better, not because we seek for a way to discredit. So, we are wanting to learn…not debate. We follow Rome.
My daughter, who is 15, is very involved in the youth part of this. We have many friends who homeschool and are part of this movement. We are those who attend daily Mass when we can, Eucharistic Adoration, go to confession on a regular basis, say the Rosary, etc. We want to live pure, chaste lives…even if we fall short. We are close and encourage each other in love and faith.
We get together often, and we are always talking about things that are important…our faith.
Brian, do not lose heart. When Christ comes again, if He comes soon, He will find men of faith who love Him still.
I know that there is much that is bad and evil in this world. No one can honestly doubt it. This forum shows it. But there are also those that are following Christ in truth.
Do not lose heart.

Home schooled children are the hope of this country. One of my seven children home schooled his children for several years, a 10 year old boy is learning to be an altar boy for the Traditional Mass. My wife believes he has a vocation to the priesthood. However they now go to a public school but they have a good foundation and should be able to hold their own and set an example. He is going to a church summer camp with 30 other boys this week where daily Mass will be on the schedule.

Two of our sons including the altar boy and his two younger siblings [now a fourth arrived so momie can’t home school anymore] and their families participated in a dinosaur excavation with me and toured the Glendive MT Dinosaur and Fossil museum in 2007. They thrilled to the discovery of small dinosaur bone fragments and turtle bones in a clay/sand matrix of the Badlands. We had taken a 30 hour train ride to Glacier National Park and then back through Montana; it was a great trip. I think they stand a much better chance of keeping “the faith of our fathers” as the hymn we sang yesterday at Mass so elequantly suggests.

Unfortunately, other countries such as Germany do not see home schooling as we do in this country. I seemd to remember that homeschooling in Germany is now verboten. Is that true?

 

[Philipp]

The geologist you refer to was J. Harlan Bretz and there were a couple of reasons his hypothesis was not accepted initially, none of which had to do with Noah. He had no source of the flood water and geologists at the time considered uniformitarianism to mean that geologic processes always occured slowly. Over time, however, his ideas were accepted because they were published, discussed and tested. Science at work!Publish your evidence and let the discussions begin. Your evidence must be properly collected and analyzed or it will be rejected. If you have that, bring it to the table.Did you read the ASA discussion about the RATE results? If so, why are you still using this argument?Sure it does. That is why you find recent and ancient coral fossils, right? The coral fossils in the upper part of the column swam away from the flood until they just couldn’t swim anymore! Those mobile fish (which didn’t look anything like the fish we have today) in Devonian rocks were just slower than the fish from the upper column rocks.

You kinda need to run away from that argument as fast as you can.Berthault has been debunked. Swift is not even accpted by his fellow creationists. Here is an article from Dr. Stephen Meyer of the Discovery Institute.
bibleandscience.com/otherviews/swift.htm
Have you considered my suggestion to submit your C14 evidence to ASA for review?

Peace

Tim

Just a quick response as I must move on to more important projects than trying to argue with a dye in the wool ET.

Why I don’t much heed to you and your buddy “The Barbarian” is because you don’t know what you are talking about. For example the person you mentioned above, Dr. Meyer is NOT with the Discovery Institute. He’s with another group of ET’s that pretend to be long earth creationists. The Barbarian claimed our C-14 dates were too young because of contamination from sources of Uranium in the earth that caused Nitrogen to change into C-14.
Baloney.

A paper has indeed been written and submitted but not to the ASA another long earth creationist group that supports evolutionary gobblegook. I’ve been to their site as you suggested and read one of their newsletters. I wouldn’t submit anything to them. We tried to do so in the 1980’s through one of their members and were rebuffed. They can’t be bothered with the facts.

 

[Orogeny]

Why I don’t much heed to you and your buddy “The Barbarian” is because you don’t know what you are talking about. For example the person you mentioned above, Dr. Meyer is NOT with the Discovery Institute. He’s with another group of ET’s that pretend to be long earth creationists.

You know, you are right and I was wrong. They are not the same person. However, that is not why you don’t much heed me or Barbarian or any other scientist. You don’t heed us because we DO know what we are talking about and we won’t fall for your “evidence”.

By the way, what say you about the Meyer article?

The Barbarian claimed our C-14 dates were too young because of contamination from sources of Uranium in the earth that caused Nitrogen to change into C-14.
Baloney.

Did you read the RATE articles on the ASA site?

A paper has indeed been written and submitted but not to the ASA another long earth creationist group that supports evolutionary gobblegook. I’ve been to their site as you suggested and read one of their newsletters. I wouldn’t submit anything to them. We tried to do so in the 1980’s through one of their members and were rebuffed. They can’t be bothered with the facts.

It says a lot about your “evidence” when you refuse to submit it to any scientific organization for review. First it was atheists and, once I gave you an organization of Christian scientists, you decide that they cannot be trusted to give an honest review of your “evidence”.

Your approach certainly is different than that which Bretz took to convince the geologic community that his hypothesis about a catastrophic flood (actually a series of floods) was correct. He didn’t run away from nay-sayers.

By the way, what is the submitted paper about and what publication did you submit it to? I would like to read it when it is published.

Peace

Tim

 

[tnystrom]

In my annual read through of Scripture, I came upon verses that made me conclude that Noah’s flood was only regional. In Genesis 6:4 (beginning of Flood narrative) it states, “The Nephilim were on the earth in those days–and also afterwards–when the sons of God went in to the daughters of humans, who bore children to them. These were the heroes that were of old, warriors of renown.”
Remember that is pre-flood. No one should remain nor their descendants after except Noah, if the flood is worldwide.
Turn to Numbers 13: 22, “They went up into the Negeb, and came to Hebron; and Ahiman, Sheshai, and Talmai, the Anakites, were there.” Numbers 13:28, “Yet the people who live in the land are strong, and the towns are fortified and very large; and besides, we saw ***the descendants of Anak ***there.” This is the key, Numbers 13:33, “There we saw the ***Nephilim ***(the Anakites come from the Nephilim); and to ourselves we seemed like grasshoppers, and so we seemed to them.”

If the flood was worldwide and only Noah and family survived to refill the earth then no descendents of preNoahic people could have survived. They could have survived only if the Flood was Not worldwide.
So if we ignore the whole science debate, then holy Scripture shows Noah’s flood to be only regional.

My point was that the Flood was NOT global, especially if you read Scriptures literally. You can’t say in one breath the Noah’s flood was global and the Nephilim are not the same in each of the Scriptures noted unless you accept a nonliteral reading, which you can’t and consistently be a literalist!!

 

[KingAlfred]

Epic of Gilgamesh. Borrowed from the Sumerians.

 

[Philipp]

Epic of Gilgamesh. Borrowed from the Sumerians.

And corrected by Moses with the all the important details that were missing from the previous reports via revelation to Moses by his and our Creator. You might call the final product Genesis 1-11a result of editorial perogative.

 

[Jesus_N_Cherie]

Home schooled children are the hope of this country. One of my seven children home schooled his children for several years, a 10 year old boy is learning to be an altar boy for the Traditional Mass. My wife believes he has a vocation to the priesthood. However they now go to a public school but they have a good foundation and should be able to hold their own and set an example. He is going to a church summer camp with 30 other boys this week where daily Mass will be on the schedule.

Two of our sons including the altar boy and his two younger siblings [now a fourth arrived so momie can’t home school anymore] and their families participated in a dinosaur excavation with me and toured the Glendive MT Dinosaur and Fossil museum in 2007. They thrilled to the discovery of small dinosaur bone fragments and turtle bones in a clay/sand matrix of the Badlands. We had taken a 30 hour train ride to Glacier National Park and then back through Montana; it was a great trip. I think they stand a much better chance of keeping “the faith of our fathers” as the hymn we sang yesterday at Mass so elequantly suggests.

Unfortunately, other countries such as Germany do not see home schooling as we do in this country. I seemd to remember that homeschooling in Germany is now verboten. Is that true?

Yes, according to what happened in the Spring of this year, Home School Legal Defense Association says that it is not allowed. They claim abuse of any child that they find homeschooled and take the children away from the parents. And they don’t have the same legal rights as we do in this country. Although this country has an EXTREMELY difficult time with fighting the courts against Social Services. Thank You, Jesus, for HSLDA.

 

[peary]

Epic of Gilgamesh. Borrowed from the Sumerians.

**Don’t be so sure about that. If you read the Sumerian myth (which was only unearthed and published in 1914, the only similarity is the flood, and a god (Enki) who tells the priest-king of Nippur, Ziusudra, that the gods took an oath to send a flood across the territory to wipe out “the seeds of mankind.”

There are too many gaps in the text to make any other comparison, and one is left with only conjecture.**

 

[Jesus_N_Cherie]

My point was that the Flood was NOT global, especially if you read Scriptures literally. You can’t say in one breath the Noah’s flood was global and the Nephilim are not the same in each of the Scriptures noted unless you accept a nonliteral reading, which you can’t and consistently be a literalist!!

Who’s to say that Noah and/or his wife did not carry the genetics of the Nephilim? That would answer the question above. I wrote about this in a former post on this thread. DNA traits do tend to skip generations. And they could have become the dominant trait in following generations.

 

[Jesus_N_Cherie]

Epic of Gilgamesh. Borrowed from the Sumerians.

Why would God, who tells us to avoid at all costs other religions, tell us to use something from another religion…mythology…that He knows would be accepted as literal for 2000 years? There you go, discrediting God. He could have explained it quite literally. He did explain it quite literally, despite what this generation…who claims to know more than God’s Word…believes. Faith is believing that which our finite minds cannot understand.

 

[Philipp]

Who’s to say that Noah and/or his wife did not carry the genetics of the Nephilim? That would answer the question above. I wrote about this in a former post on this thread. DNA traits do tend to skip generations. And they could have become the dominant trait in following generations.

 

[Philipp]

Philipp:
I meant to say your explanation makes sense. St. Augustine being a human like the rest of us did not know of that bit of science so he just sasid there were giants before and after the flood. There footprints have been found in numerous othere strata I’m told as well as in Texas.

There are also such things as recessive genes which could have played a roll. Afterall when all life forms were created ex nihilo they were created according to “kind” which would have certainly allowed for many variations in each species.

 

[KingAlfred]

Why would God, who tells us to avoid at all costs other religions, tell us to use something from another religion…mythology…that He knows would be accepted as literal for 2000 years? There you go, discrediting God. He could have explained it quite literally. He did explain it quite literally, despite what this generation…who claims to know more than God’s Word…believes. Faith is believing that which our finite minds cannot understand.

You need to refer to sources other than the Bible to better understand the Bible. Study commentary concerning the creation of the Bible. It’s one of the oldest topics in Western history. The fact that the Bible is chuck full of pagan influences is old, old news to Biblical scholars. I’m not just making this up.

Here’s an interesting tid-bit: did you know the act of genuflection is a pagan addition to the Mass? Yeah…it came to us via pagan ceremonialism in ancient times. Knowing that, you might not consider genuflection such a ‘sacred’ act, after all. Just a gently, reverentially offered morcel of food for thought. That’s all.

 

[tnystrom]

I want to know why the literals are ignoring my question? The Nephilim were not decendants of Noah. They were a separate line so why if the Flood was universal and all were destroyed except Noah’s family did nonNoahic decendants exist after the flood?
Please be consistent in your literalism.

 

[peary]

You need to refer to sources other than the Bible to better understand the Bible. Study commentary concerning the creation of the Bible. It’s one of the oldest topics in Western history. The fact that the Bible is chuck full of pagan influences is old, old news to Biblical scholars. I’m not just making this up.

Here’s an interesting tid-bit: did you know the act of genuflection is a pagan addition to the Mass? Yeah…it came to us via pagan ceremonialism in ancient times. Knowing that, you might not consider genuflection such a ‘sacred’ act, after all. Just a gently, reverentially offered morcel of food for thought. That’s all.

So, I guess the biblical verse, “Every knee shall bend…” to worship the Lord and to recognize His Kingship isn’t a Judeo-Christian act anymore. By the way, that verse is found in the Old Testament.

 

[buffalo]

So, I guess the biblical verse, “Every knee shall bend…” to worship the Lord and to recognize His Kingship isn’t a Judeo-Christian act anymore. By the way, that verse is found in the Old Testament.

Don’t you know - it all came from Pagans. HMMMMM! That’s what they first learn and bring to this board. And then they get the facts and then we never hear from them again.

 

[Philipp]

You need to refer to sources other than the Bible to better understand the Bible. Study commentary concerning the creation of the Bible. It’s one of the oldest topics in Western history. The fact that the Bible is chuck full of pagan influences is old, old news to Biblical scholars. I’m not just making this up.

Here’s an interesting tid-bit: did you know the act of genuflection is a pagan addition to the Mass? Yeah…it came to us via pagan ceremonialism in ancient times. Knowing that, you might not consider genuflection such a ‘sacred’ act, after all. Just a gently, reverentially offered morcel of food for thought. That’s all.

I think others have answered your above challenge adequately. I would like to suggest that the scriptural references below were rather specific and suggest that Someone Who was there recorded the event with rather accurate timing including the “fountains of the deep opening up” BEFORE the Ark and the earth got dumpted on by 40 days of rain. Think about it!


Some Biblical references to the Ark and worldwide Flood of Noe (Noah) which science is now in the process of confirming as actually happened in the not too distant past*: from the Catholic Bible of the 16/17th century.

Genesis 6: 13-21 [12-15]. 12. God saw that the earth was corrupt for all men lived corruptly on the earth. 13. And God said to Noe, The end of all creatures of flesh is in my mind; the earth is full of violence because of them. I will destroy them with the earth. 14. Make an ark out of resin wood; make it tight with fiber and cover it with pitch inside and out. 15. This is how you shall make it; the length of the ark three hundred cubits, its width fifty cubits, and its height thirty cubits-----------.

Genesis 7: 1-24 [11-12], In the six hundredth year of Noe’s life, on the seventeenth day of the second month, on that very day all the fountains of the great deep burst forth, and the floodgates of the heavens were opened. 12. And rain fell on the earth forty days and forty nights----------.

Genesis 8: 1-19 [4-5], And in the seventh month, on the seventeenth day of the month, the ark rested on the mountains of Ararat. 5. The waters continued to recede until the tenth month; on the first day of the tenth month the tops of the mountains appeared—.

Genesis 9: 28-29, Noe lived three hundred and fifty years after the flood, 29. The whole lifetime of Noe was nine hundred and fifty years; then he died.

Paul to the Hebrews 11: 7, By faith Noe, having been warned concerning things not seen as yet, prepared with pious fear an ark in which to save his household. Having thus condemned the world, he was made heir of the justice which is through faith.
Peter 2:5, Nor did He spare the ancient world, but preserved (with seven others) Noe a herald of justice when He brought a flood upon the world of the impious”.
Peter 3:3-6, This first you must know, that in the last days there will come deceitful scoffers, men walking according to their own lusts, 4. Saying, “Where is the promise or His coming? For since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of creation.” 5. For of this they were willfully ignorant, that there were heavens long ago, and an earth formed out of water and by water through the word of God. 6. By these means the world that then was, deluged with water, perished*.
Matt 24, [36-39], 39. And they did not understand until the flood came and swept them all away; even so will be the coming of the Son of Man.
Luke 17, [26-30], 26. And as it came to pass in the days of Noe even so will it be in the days of the Son of Man.

True science agrees with these words, which are the inspired Words of God – the scoffers are those who believe we are but accidents of nature and use modern man’s interpretation of the fossil record to make them look more kingly like . Truth will prevail.

 

[Brian_Millar]

Great comment Phillip, this clearly shows what happens when one starts to take away from the bible. You take away one part, you then need to start taking away others to support this now missing piece, isn’t this what is meant when it’s written about not taking away, or adding onto scripture?

tnystrom, it’s clearly stated that “all” life on the earth was wiped out, not just part of it, all of it. If it was regional, why bother with an ark, Noah could have just moved to a better location and saved himself the trouble, there would be no pupose to carry all of these animals as well since there would be survivors. The Nephilim, if they existed as within mortal form had to have been destroyed along with all of life, yet it clearly states, they were here before and after. This makes you think either one of two things here, either the bible just contradicted itself or they were not living beings subject to mortal limitations. I guess the reason they are not discussed very well is because we were not ready to know these details, and likely have no use for them, I could go off onto tangents, saying that they were spirits, or what we consider ET, that would fit in with the story and not conflict with it, but I won’t go there, not here, but there is more to this then we have discussed, and to be blunt, none of us are qualified to come to a final conclusion of exactly who and what they are. One thing is certain though, it never states that they went away, it never states that they died out, nor does it state that Noah’s blood line carried their genetic material. What this tells me is that they are still here to this day.

 

[peary]

Some Biblical references to the Ark and worldwide Flood of Noe (Noah) which science is now in the process of confirming as actually happened in the not too distant past*: from the Catholic Bible of the 16/17th century.

**Again, there isn’t a shred of evidence in the geological record that the Flood was a worldwide event which killed off every living thing. Science does not confirm this!

 

[buffalo]

**Again, there isn’t a shred of evidence in the geological record that the Flood was a worldwide event which killed off every living thing. Science does *not ***confirm this!

Science hasn’t a shred of evidence that Jesus is truly present at consecration.

Science hasn’t a shred of evidence that He resurrected.

Science hasn’t a shred of evidence for a lot of its theories.

Science has nothing to say about miracles.