Story: "Trans teen regrets his ‘Frankenstein’ transition."

[PetraG]

Indeed, hormone therapy and surgery have been found to be medically necessary to alleviate gender dysphoria in many people (American Medical Association, 2008; Anton, 2009; World Professional Association for Transgender Health, 2008).

Is it possible that people aren’t going to learn how to be happy with themselves as they are if they are told that they weren’t made to be just the way they are? People are being taught to think that deep dissatisfaction with themselves means that they were born with a wrong body. How is that healthy?

More importantly: How is it healthy to teach this to adolescents and young adults, who are extremely vulnerable to both impulsive actions and profound insecurities surrounding body and identity?

Clearly, some people do regret the change, but one must be careful to not present anecdotal evidence as a “prevalence”.

When we’re talking about an irreversible surgery, burying stories of people who deeply regret it is something we ought to be even more careful about, particularly when some of those people are very young.

After all, what about people such as Michael Jackson who were pretty clearly over-reliant on plastic surgery to get to an appearance that would make them more comfortable with themselves, rather than learning to accept themselves as they are? Why should psychologists count it as a win when their best therapy is to drastically alter what the patient looks like so the patient can take on a persona that their actual appearance does not support? How is that self-acceptance, especially when we are talking about people whose appearance definitely falls inside of what is typical?

Like any medical intervention, it can be mishandled by incompetent or careless professionals, and honest mistakes can be made. To suggest though, that unfortunate experiences such as these should block treatment for transgendered individuals, will lead to much greater suffering. The transgendered, as a group, have one of the highest suicide rates.

Like any medical intervention, it can be grossly oversold, too. Just using the name “transgendered” to refer to someone who suffers from gender dysphoria rather than physical ambiguity is more of a political sales job than a psychological description. Where did the concrete idea that someone can be the “wrong” gender get into medical parlance? When did the concept that it is the body that is wrong and not the brain that is profoundly confused deemed to be the reality? After all, we are talking about a medical “solution” that requires a lifetime of artificial hormones to support an outward appearance that the person feels comfortable with.

After all, if the change required were to alter the person’s apparent ethnicity–or even the patient’s species, as some patients feel species dysphoria–would this be considered a real treatment? I think not. This is more of a societal phenomenon than a medical one, then, in which one form of body dysmorphia is singled out as a matter of civil rights.

 

[melonhead]

melonhead:

tranny friendly,

I’m sure it wasn’t intentional, but just so you know the term “tranny” is considered very offensive in the transgender community. It is associated with the porn industry.

Believe it or not, no, I had no idea it was originated with the porn industry.

 

[OraLabora]

Where did the concrete idea that someone can be the “wrong” gender get into medical parlance? When did the concept that it is the body that is wrong and not the brain that is profoundly confused deemed to be the reality?

Google “Androgen Insensitivity Syndrome”. Genetic males born into a phenotypically female body. Clearly their bodies do not conform to their genetic gender. Some folks with AIS have a milder form that leads to things like malformed genitals.

Genes have been identified that interfere with the brain’s uptake of testosterone at 17 weeks gestation in utero. That’s the point at which, in boys, a burst of testosterone distinguishes their bodies from phenotypically female to phenotypically male. If that process is interfered with, a more typically female brain can develop.

These are not confused people. My transgendered daughter (born a male) is a honours graduate and now a grad student in the hard sciences, and is highly functional both mentally and socially. In fact much more social and less withdrawn since coming out.

I consider her coming out as a gift from God, it has given her life back.

I realize it’s hard for people not familiar with the issue to get their heads around this. My only prayer is that they respect the witness of people who have direct contact with the issue and avoid discrimination and hurtful talk. And that would apply to the Church hierarchy who have said some very unfortunate things recently. Probably not out of malice, but certainly from lack of direct experience with the transgendered.

 

[tommy37]

Thanks for the information. And for a thoughtful and charitable response!

 

[Rau]

Where did the concrete idea that someone can be the “wrong” gender get into medical parlance? When did the concept that it is the body that is wrong and not the brain that is profoundly confused deemed to be the reality?

It perhaps suits the observation that various changes to the body are possible but no way of changing the brain is known. All we can say is that the two are not in harmony, and for some people this is a dreadful experience.

 

[Jimbo]

Irreversible Interventions

Genital surgery should not be carried out until (i) patients reach the legal age of majority in a given
country, and (ii) patients have lived continuously for at least 12 months in the gender role that is
congruent with their gender identity. The age threshold should be seen as a minimum criterion and
not an indication in and of itself for active intervention.

This is something I can feel is a far more measured take than what some people are advocating (the reports of a four year old in Australia starting to transition, for example).

I also would like to have VERY MUCH more research done on this to find out causes, and the best way to treat people with GD to maximize their happiness and reduce their chances for suicides.

Twin studies suggest that in ~30% of GD cases there does seem to be a genetic component. For those people, if we can figure that out, then they may have a much harder row to hoe to find effective treatment. Surgery might be a treatment there.

http://www.hawaii.edu/PCSS/biblio/articles/2010to2014/2013-transsexuality.html

However, there are also studies that suggest that there may be many who may not have a genetic cause, but rather a treatable psychological cause.

https://www.wsj.com/articles/peer-pressure-and-transgender-teens-1536524718

For them surgery would not only not be helpful but be actively damaging. And without knowing surgery would be the equivalent of the psychosurgery used by labotomists. ‘Psychological problem? We’ll cut out the source!’.

What makes this very difficult is that it seems there is active peer pressure in many circles to not find out where the proximate cause lies, because doing so is seen as being ‘insensitive’ or ‘phobic’. In public schools where I live all that needs to happen for a student to get treated by the gender of their choice is they just say " 'I identify as ‘X’ "

This can lead to crappy situations like this young lady who went through surgery… only to find out that she was depressed. But in her HS no one wanted to challenge her base assertions:

When girls won’t be girls

Growing numbers of teenagers, convinced they have been born in the wrong body, are switching gender. But young people change their minds about lots of things. What if one of them is their gender? Charlie McCann investigates

www.economist.com

Now she’s a girl again; but her body has been greatly damaged.

Finally, I think that we are greatly mistaken in mistaking sex and gender. Suppose we have a male who has all the physical characteristics of a male; but who has whatever genetic marker in his brain that makes him have dysphoria. Helping that person to find a path to where they don’t kill themselves is an admirable goal.

But I find it grossly unfair to say that this person, with male genitalia, should instantly be allowed access to womens locker rooms; or women’s sports competitions. Is it a hardship for them? Sure! But to allow them might also be a grievous hardship to the fully biological women. A woman who has been sexually assaulted by a man might be very traumatized by having a physical male share a communal shower.

We must seek truth in this. We must remove the politics and the agendas. I’m very frustrated by how this has been turned into a civil rights issue instead of a medical one.

 

[PetraG]

Google “Androgen Insensitivity Syndrome”. Genetic males born into a phenotypically female body. Clearly their bodies do not conform to their genetic gender. Some folks with AIS have a milder form that leads to things like malformed genitals.

That is what I meant by physical ambiguity–that is, as an example, someone whose body has developed sexual characteristics that are typical of one sex who finds that they have the DNA of the other sex. (Another example would be someone with ambiguous DNA.)

These are not confused people. My transgendered daughter (born a male) is a honours graduate and now a grad student in the hard sciences, and is highly functional both mentally and socially. In fact much more social and less withdrawn since coming out.

I have a PhD in the hard sciences, and I can assure you that there is nothing about getting one of those degrees that immunizes someone against being confused about themselves. The truth is, I would expect research to say that just the process of earning a PhD is likely to be terrible for your mental well-being.

I am also not trying to minimize the real suffering that could drive someone to seek a cure by attempting to alter their secondary sexual characteristics to that of the opposite sex. I would hope no one is saying that these are made-up problems, including the heirarchy. I also know that some people with social anxieties get a lot of symptom relief by taking on an animal persona and wearing a furry costume around. It works for them. They’re not becoming foxes and rabbits, though. If they think that, they’re really confused. Yes, some of them get plastic surgery to look more like a tiger or whatever animal they believe themselves to really be. Getting anxiety symptom relief by taking on a set of beliefs does not mean that the beliefs are true, though…we know that, right? Is it inherently hurtful to say that someone who believes they are really a wolf cannot actually become a wolf? Again: we are not talking about people who suffer from physical ambiguity, but people who suffer from a profound difficulty in accepting that they really have the sex they have. Could that have an organic cause? Of course it could! We don’t say that someone doesn’t suffer from confusion because their confusion has a physical cause, though. Confusion often has a physical cause. That doesn’t mean that the confused person’s perception about himself or herself is actually reality and everyone else’s perception is false…right?

Is it reasonable and perhaps even more kind to decide not to confront someone with a deep-seated confusion that isn’t going to change? I can live with that. That does not mean I’m going to generally say that their confused state is reality and the rest of us cannot know what physical reality is about anyone else without each person self-reporting.

 

[Loud-living-dogma]

Look at the dates of your study there ora. 1990 and 1993. They weren’t mutilating 18-year-olds back then.

 

[Annie]

Google “Androgen Insensitivity Syndrome”. Genetic males born into a phenotypically female body. Clearly their bodies do not conform to their genetic gender. Some folks with AIS have a milder form that leads to things like malformed genitals.

But transgenderism is not like this. Would it make sense in a discussion about raising vegetables to bring up razing buildings?

I am not for prohibiting surgery or anything like that (altho I am against people going into the military and getting it), but I am against the philosophy that:

Psychotherapy (individual, couple, family, or group) for purposes such as exploring gender identity, role, and expression; addressing the negative impact of gender dysphoria and stigma on mental health; alleviating internalized transphobia; enhancing social and peer support; improving body image; or promoting resilience.

So many of the stories I have read by those who regret their surgery have indicated that they had other issues, sometimes previously diagnosed, but that once they said they felt transgender, their other issues were blamed on that and that was seen as their only issue.

No thought given to the idea that maybe they felt transgenderish because of the other issues.

I have loved long enough to have seen a few psychological “fads,” such as the repressed memory/victim of horrific abuse trend. The fact that a lot of these stories were discredited does not mean there was never horrific abuse of a child, but that suddenly having this “issue” was seen as an explanation for their problems and a way to provide a framework for coping with their issues and with their interactions with others.

An article along these lines: A New Way to Be Mad - The Atlantic

 

[PetraG]

I have lived long enough to have seen a few psychological “fads,” such as the repressed memory/victim of horrific abuse trend…

Not to mention frontal lobotomies and other irreversible surgical interventions. Not everything that causes optimism as a possible way to accomplish symptom relief is destined to become the standard of care. This is particularly true when a form of treatment is hailed as the final answer and examples when it doesn’t work out are suppressed. As for this treatment, it has gone from being a medical treatment to being a political cause. That is going to be bad for the practice of medicine, without a doubt.

Among the latest “initialisms” is LGBTTQQIAAP, meaning lesbian, gay, bisexual, transgender, transsexual, queer, questioning, intersex, asexual, ally, pansexual. Do not tell me we do not have a rash of people suffering from some serious sexual confusion. Everybody having an issue with their sexuality or gender identity needs a letter…because that issue is that central to their identity? That of course leads to the question of whether the confusion is merely sexual.

 

[Thorolfr]

I also know that some people with social anxieties get a lot of symptom relief by taking on an animal persona and wearing a furry costume around. It works for them. They’re not becoming foxes and rabbits, though. If they think that, they’re really confused. Yes, some of them get plastic surgery to look more like a tiger or whatever animal they believe themselves to really be. Getting anxiety symptom relief by taking on a set of beliefs does not mean that the beliefs are true, though…we know that, right?

I’ve been reading a new book by Eric Kandel, The Disordered Mind. He’s a Nobel Prize winner in medicine and has written a very interesting book in which he looks at what new research into depression, schizophrenia, bipolar-disorder, Alzheimer’s, Parkinson’s, etc. is telling us about how our brains work. He has also added a chapter on gender issues in which he points out that the biological processes that occur after conception causing us to have male or female physical characteristics take place early in pregnancy. However, because important parts of our brains develop much later in pregnancy, our gender identity, our mental sense of being male or female or something in between, also probably develops much later in pregnancy which can cause a disconnect between our outward physical characteristics and our brain if our brain has developed differently. So, it’s quite possible that someone could have an externally male physical body but a more female brain. This seems quite different than the example you give since it’s not possible for a human to have a human body but a tiger brain or a fox brain.

 

[PetraG]

So, it’s quite possible that someone could have an externally male physical body but a more female brain. This seems quite different than the example you give since it’s not possible for a human to have human body but a tiger brain or a fox brain.

Is it not possible, though, that the kind of organic processes that could lead someone to so strongly identify with a different species could also cause someone to strongly identify with the opposite sex–or perhaps, at root, to be vulnerable to trying to find refuge from their own identity in a persona other than the one they have carried through life so far? Sometimes, the furries don’t really think they’re a fox. They do feel safer inside the fox costume and behind a fox persona that allows them to have social interactions that don’t involve talking.
One does have to wonder if we don’t live in an era of exceedingly high social anxiety and extremely high levels of insecure introspection. The Age of Who-You-Are-Is-Not-Enough.
In other words, I’m saying I don’t see any reason why the genesis of body dysmorphias all have to have the same root cause. I don’t think the impression “maybe I’m not really a man, maybe I’m feeling like this because I’m really a woman” has to always arise for the same reason.

 

[0Scarlett_nidiyilii]

There have been very ugly things going on in the name of “transgender”, such as insecure teens being led into believing the only way out of their problems are chemicals and scalpels.

I’ve seen a kid railroaded through a sex change, and yes, this was somebody I know, a close relative.
Then the suicide attempts started.

And a lot of kids are being enticed into hating their bodies.

Parents need to know this.

 

[0Scarlett_nidiyilii]

I have loved long enough to have seen a few psychological “fads,” such as the repressed memory/victim of horrific abuse tren

Yes, and remember how the mantra was “always affirm and never question?”

 

[0Scarlett_nidiyilii]

Google “Androgen Insensitivity Syndrome”. Genetic males born into a phenotypically female body. Clearly their bodies do not conform to their genetic gender.

False equivalence. AIS don’t get periods.

 

[Thorolfr]

Is it possible that people aren’t going to learn how to be happy with themselves as they are if they are told that they weren’t made to be just the way they are? People are being taught to think that deep dissatisfaction with themselves means that they were born with a wrong body. How is that healthy?

It’s interesting that you bring up the issue of people not being happy with themselves as they are. This happens less than it used to, but at one time, many gay men weren’t happy with themselves the way they were. They obviously felt that they had the wrong sexual orientation. Modern psychology has moved towards encouraging gay people to accept themselves the way they are, but some of them aren’t happy and want to become straight and end up undergoing some sort of reparative therapy, usually without much success. And although the Catholic Church doesn’t encourage reparative therapy, they also don’t encourage gay people to accept themselves the way they are when it comes to the gender of the person their brain tells them that they should have sex with.

 

[0Scarlett_nidiyilii]

And although the Catholic Church doesn’t encourage reparative therapy, they also don’t encourage gay people to accept themselves the way they are when it comes to the gender of the person their brain tells them that they should have sex with.

Feelings are separate from actions.

If I fall in love with somebody who is somebody else’s husband, its on ME to do the right thing and not blame the Church

 

[Thorolfr]

Thorolfr:

And although the Catholic Church doesn’t encourage reparative therapy, they also don’t encourage gay people to accept themselves the way they are when it comes to the gender of the person their brain tells them that they should have sex with.

Feelings are separate from actions.

If I fall in love with somebody who is somebody else’s husband, its on ME to do the right thing and not blame the Church

Nevertheless, in many other cases besides the one involving people who suffer from gender dysphoria, those who are dissatisfied with themselves because of something about their body or about how their brain works aren’t told that they must accept themselves the way they are. Of course, it’s always the brain that must change and is considered “confused” or “disordered” if it doesn’t fit or has some disconnect with other parts of the body

 

[0Scarlett_nidiyilii]

Still wrong.

It’s not about the feelings.

It’s about the actions.

Feelings are never wrong or immoral. Actions might be moral or immoral.

 

[Thorolfr]

Still wrong.

It’s not about the feelings.

It’s about the actions.

Feelings are never wrong or immoral. Actions might be moral or immoral.

So, there’s nothing “wrong” with someone feeling like he wants to go out and commit mass murder? It might not be a sin to have this feeling, but it surely would be considered a “wrong” kind of feeling for most people to have. Anyone with feelings like that would certainly be encouraged to get some help with a mental health professional.