Story: "Trans teen regrets his ‘Frankenstein’ transition."

[0Scarlett_nidiyilii]

So, there’s nothing “wrong” with someone feeling like he wants to go out and commit mass murder?

That’s a thought, not a feeling.

 

[Thorolfr]

Thorolfr:

So, there’s nothing “wrong” with someone feeling like he wants to go out and commit mass murder?

That’s a thought, not a feeling.

If someone who is a psychopath has an irresistible urge to commit murder, that’s only a thought and not a feeling? What is the distinction between a thought and a feeling?

And sexual orientation is only a feeling but doesn’t involve any thoughts? And is OCD a feeling or a thought?

 

[PetraG]

It’s interesting that you bring up the issue of people not being happy with themselves as they are. This happens less than it used to, but at one time, many gay men weren’t happy with themselves the way they were. They obviously felt that they had the wrong sexual orientation. Modern psychology has moved towards encouraging gay people to accept themselves the way they are, but some of them aren’t happy and want to become straight and end up undergoing some sort of reparative therapy, usually without much success. And although the Catholic Church doesn’t encourage reparative therapy, they also don’t encourage gay people to accept themselves the way they are when it comes to the gender of the person their brain tells them that they should have sex with.

There is a difference between being content with yourself as you are and embracing your major impulses. It is a little like the modern mythology that you can be whatever you dream of being. Well, no, you can’t always do that. You can’t always trust your instincts and a lot of the time you shouldn’t.

Nevertheless, in many other cases besides the one involving people who suffer from gender dysphoria, those who are dissatisfied with themselves because of something about their body or about how their brain works aren’t told that they must accept themselves the way they are. Of course, it’s always the brain that must change and is considered “confused” or “disordered” if it doesn’t fit or has some disconnect with other parts of the body

OK, so if it is the physical reality of the rest of the world that you have difficulty accepting, it is your brain that is confused. If you have a self-concept that you need to be thinner but your body can’t survive it, it is your brain that is confused. If you have a self-concept that you belong to a different ethnic group than your parents and grandparents, it is your brain that is confused. If you have a self-concept that requires plastic surgery and a lifetime supply of artificial hormones to accomodate, though, your brain is not confused–it is your body that’s disordered and needs to be radically altered and forced into a different form.

Do you not see the internally-inconsistent standard in all of this? If your brain is not confused, that implies that it must be your body with its functioning organs and intact fertility that is disordered and requires medical treatment, not your brain. The treatment put onto the body for this condition is indeed radical–let’s not forget that!

Why is that the inevitable conclusion? Because psychiatry hasn’t come up with anything better? Your body is disordered because psychiatry can’t change your brain? That’s supposed to be the accepted truth about the matter?

There is nothing wrong with allowing people to be open about their difficulty with identifying with their own bodies. That is nothing to be ashamed of. It is quite different to tell all of society that they have to accept that the right treatment for that is amputation, reconstructive surgery and long-term hormone treatments to alter the person’s appearance.

 

[Thorolfr]

OK, so if it is the physical reality of the rest of the world that you have difficulty accepting, it is your brain that is confused. If you have a self-concept that you need to be thinner but your body can’t survive it, it is your brain that is confused. If you have a self-concept that you belong to a different ethnic group than your parents and grandparents, it is your brain that is confused. If you have a self-concept that requires plastic surgery and a lifetime supply of artificial hormones to accomodate, though, your brain is not confused–it is your body that’s disordered and needs to be radically altered and forced into a different form.

The brain is also a physical reality made up of neurons and neurotransmitters, etc. It might be that in terms of gender identity and sex, the physical brain because of the way it has developed doesn’t fit with the rest of the physical body. In that case, there are three options: suffer with the disconnect between the brain and the body, change the brain to more closely fit the body or change the body to more closely fit the brain. I don’t see how it can be determined that it’s best to suffer with dysphoria or change the brain, but that the rest of the body should never be changed.

The brain, for some reason, is always considered less important. That’s probably why funding for mental health has always lagged behind funding for the health of the rest of the body.

 

[0Scarlett_nidiyilii]

More precisely , feelings are sensations—hot, cold, hunger, fatigue, pleasure, sexual arousal.

Emotions are things like anger, happy, sad, fear.

Thoughts are the ideas which go through our brains and we do have the power to redirect our thoughts.

A healthy and mature person integrates feelings, emotions and thoughts to make their decisions.

 

[Thorolfr]

More precisely , feelings are sensations—hot, cold, hunger, fatigue, pleasure, sexual arousal.

Emotions are things like anger, happy, sad, fear.

Thoughts are the ideas which go through our brains and we do have the power to redirect our thoughts.

A healthy and mature person integrates feelings, emotions and thoughts to make their decisions.

Here’s an interesting distinction between feelings and emotions:

A feeling is a mental portrayal of what is going on in your body when you have an emotion and is the byproduct of your brain perceiving and assigning meaning to the emotion . Feelings are the next thing that happens after having an emotion , involve cognitive (name removed by moderator)ut, usually subconscious, and cannot be measured precisely.

Wikipedia describes hunger as a “sensation.” How “sensations” differ from “feelings,” I’m not sure.

 

[OraLabora]

False equivalence. AIS don’t get periods.

I’m not sure I understand your point. My point is that their bodies are phenotypically opposite from their genetic (XY) gender. They are genetically male, they have testes, they produce testosterone, but their body cannot process it. Hence it develops into female morphology. The absence of periods is irrelevant. I think, or at least I hope, the Church wouldn’t insist on them being reassigned as boys just because “male and female He created them”…

Interestingly most AIS are happy and well-adjusted identifying as women apart from the sterility possibly being a source of distress.

There have been very ugly things going on in the name of “transgender”, such as insecure teens being led into believing the only way out of their problems are chemicals and scalpels.

Yes no doubt there are very questionable cases. I’m all for adhering to the Standards of Care and seeking the least interventionist treatment possible. But I’m against poorly managed cases being used to justify denial of treatment to those who truly need it.

 

[Thorolfr]

I think, or at least I hope, the Church wouldn’t insist on them being reassigned as boys just because “male and female He created them”…

I’ve encountered a number of people here in CAF who insist that people with AIS should be referred to as “he” because they’re genetically male even if they were born and grew up looking female and are living as women now.

 

[0Scarlett_nidiyilii]

I liked your post

One of the unfortunate downsides of the English language is imprecision in a lot of areas.

 

[OraLabora]

I’ve encountered a number of people here in CAF who insist that people with AIS should be referred to as “he” because they’re genetically male even if they were born and grew up looking female and are living as women now.

I wish that were surprising, but alas it isn’t

Unfortunately, “black and white” doesn’t often do so well describing a grey (fallen) world.

 

[0Scarlett_nidiyilii]

False equivalence. AIS don’t get periods.

The point is that a lot of people try to muddy the water in these discussions by bringing up the intersex person and acting as if the lived experience of an intersex person is equivalent to some kid who was happy in their body until something happened in the tween or teen years to change that.

If you and I were just having a bull session over a bottle of bad wine and discussing hypotheticals, it wouldn’t matter.

But kids are being mutilated over a poorly understood philosophy, and furthermore, is gaining power in the political and educational spheres to force this philosophy onto innocent people.

 

[OraLabora]

The point is that a lot of people try to muddy the water in these discussions by bringing up the intersex person and acting as if the lived experience of an intersex person is equivalent to some kid who was happy in their body until something happened in the tween or teen years to change that.

My point is rather that transgenderism, the actual medical condition, might be a condition on the intersex spectrum. Some research points to that, such as the twins study mentioned above.

What is muddying the waters is the use of questionable cases to discredit all transgendered. That does a disservice to the people who need help, and who are in fact very fragile and deserving of our empathy, not our condemnation.

 

[0Scarlett_nidiyilii]

My point is rather that transgenderism, the actual medical condition, might be a condition on the intersex spectrum. Some research points to that, such as the twins study mentioned above.

What is muddying the waters is the use of questionable cases to discredit all transgendered. That does a disservice to the people who need help, and who are in fact very fragile and deserving of our empathy, not our condemnation

A lot of mutlilations and a lot of laws and regulations are being forced through on the flimsy basis of might.

Yeah, I’ve read the research, and I’ve read the commentary on the research, and there isn’t a single “smoking gun” that proves the transactivists’ claims.

But yet, they have the go-ahead to destroy lives and force ideologies.

Yes, I am a bit heated over this. Because I’ve seen kids lives ruined with my own eyes. I’ve also seen kids de-transition, who were very convincing during their trans phase.

I want parents to realize the science is not settled, but while the activists are playing, real lives are being ruined.

 

[OraLabora]

I want parents to realize the science is not settled, but while the activists are playing, real lives are being ruined.

I am a parent of a transgendered woman (young adult). I look at it from the perspective of wellness, and my child is a much better place now. At least I know what the issue is. Before I did, we feared our child was lost. Now we have our child back, a loving and lovable person that had been hidden in a shell so thick you would need a nuclear explosion to crack it open.

Your point is well taken, that there have been some misses. But that is not the experience of all transgendered persons, not even the experience of most transgendered persons, who have been treated according to WPATH (or prior to that Harry Benjamin) standards. I can’t speak for everyone, but only from my own perspective as a father.

The science is not settled on many other health issues as well, but we don’t deny treatment when it is the best or only hope available.

 

[vz71]

The science is not settled on many other health issues as well, but we don’t deny treatment when it is the best or only hope available.

What exactly is “treatment”?

 

[PetraG]

The brain is also a physical reality made up of neurons and neurotransmitters, etc. It might be that in terms of gender identity and sex, the physical brain because of the way it has developed doesn’t fit with the rest of the physical body. In that case, there are three options: suffer with the disconnect between the brain and the body, change the brain to more closely fit the body or change the body to more closely fit the brain. I don’t see how it can be determined that it’s best to suffer with dysphoria or change the brain, but that the rest of the body should never be changed.

The brain, for some reason, is always considered less important. That’s probably why funding for mental health has always lagged behind funding for the health of the rest of the body.

No, it isn’t that the brain is less important. It is that while experience is not a fabrication that people can change at will, perception is still not reality. If you cannot percieve light, it does not mean there is no light. If you see lights when there are no photons hitting your eye, it may be because your brain is creating impulses that you percieve to be light when there is no light. A concrete reality independent of your perception does exist, and that can include realities about you that differ from your self-concept.

 

[Thorolfr]

Thorolfr:

The brain is also a physical reality made up of neurons and neurotransmitters, etc. It might be that in terms of gender identity and sex, the physical brain because of the way it has developed doesn’t fit with the rest of the physical body. In that case, there are three options: suffer with the disconnect between the brain and the body, change the brain to more closely fit the body or change the body to more closely fit the brain. I don’t see how it can be determined that it’s best to suffer with dysphoria or change the brain, but that the rest of the body should never be changed.

The brain, for some reason, is always considered less important. That’s probably why funding for mental health has always lagged behind funding for the health of the rest of the body.

No, it isn’t that the brain is less important. It is that while experience is not a fabrication that people can change at will, perception is still not reality. If you cannot percieve light, it does not mean there is no light. If you see lights when there are no photons hitting your eye, it may be because your brain is creating impulses that you percieve to be light when there is no light. A concrete reality independent of your perception does exist, and that can include realities about you that differ from your self-concept.

I’m not even talking specifically about what the brain perceives. What if it is discovered that some people have physical characteristics in how their brains are wired that are typical of female brains but they otherwise have outward male characteristics in other parts of their bodies? In that case, if such a person felt that they were a female trapped in a man’s body, that might be an accurate description of someone who has a male body but a female brain. The feeling that such a person would have wouldn’t be a “fabrication”. It would be a reflection of how the neurons in their brains are wired. As I pointed out above, it’s possible that some people have brains that developed physically in a way that is female whereas the rest of their body started to develop early in pregnancy as male.

 

[Thorolfr]

OraLabora:

The science is not settled on many other health issues as well, but we don’t deny treatment when it is the best or only hope available.

What exactly is “treatment”?

He obviously means medical treatment. Doctors “treat” patients by prescribing medication for them, by performing various medical procedures and tests, by diagnosing various medical conditions they might have, by performing surgery on them, etc. In the above case, I understand him to be saying that we don’t deny people medical treatments that might benefit them just because some small number of patients have not benefited or have possibly been harmed.

 

[vz71]

He obviously means medical treatment.

Mutilation as well?

 

[GLam1761]

Gender stereotyping is harmful to youngsters, even
as a male growing up, I am sensitive to avoid seeing
or feeling “female” side of me, being attractive, sensual
feelings in my chest teats… I think that being manly is
not acting macho all the time but being at home in my
own skin is!!