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johnnyc176
Guest
Well rosey it’s been nice. Someone else has chimed in and it’s getting a little confusing lol. If you want to continue the discussion you can pm me. God Bless!
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Don_Ruggero
Guest
I found it, frankly, a bizarre practice of the Americans.
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Roseeurekacross
Guest
I have not yet met one of these fabled Protestants in the flesh.
Acronyms are quite strange, the alphabet is not endangered. There are still plenty of letters left to turn into words!
Apologies if you did not know the convention of direction ie WNW (west north west)
Don Ruggero, I am having nightmares about some traditionalist mobs pinning compasses and GPS tracking systems on You guys during Mass!
Red alert, the Bishop is 1degree off . And a Vatican Swat team rushing in!
Acronyms are quite strange, the alphabet is not endangered. There are still plenty of letters left to turn into words!
Apologies if you did not know the convention of direction ie WNW (west north west)
Don Ruggero, I am having nightmares about some traditionalist mobs pinning compasses and GPS tracking systems on You guys during Mass!
Red alert, the Bishop is 1degree off . And a Vatican Swat team rushing in!
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Don_Ruggero
Guest
No danger of the Vatican reacting that way…at all.
I have dealt with some, who would be well described actually as traditionalist “mobs” who managed to get themselves dis-invited from using the chapel of incredibly kind and generous Religious who had given these people hospitality – but whom the mob maligned as “modernists”.
Finely, the mob exhausted the patience of these Religious. The response? Not “Thank you for the kindness you were able to offer generously us to have Eucharist in your beautiful chapel.” It was more attacks against them for being “against tradition.”
They not only lost their accommodation – but they also lost the solicitude of the Bishop by their growing harangues. With his solicitude gone, at that point the mob turned also on the Bishop as being “modernist”.
Poor delusional tragic people. They had expectations that others would flock to the vetus ordo…of course they didn’t. The turnout was perfectly dismal.
It was a real eye-opener for people who had tried to be helpful to a group petitioning after Quattuor abhinc annos, I can quite assure you. Unforgettable.
I could write a book, just relating to the experiences of having to deal with those attached to the vetus ordo.
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Don_Ruggero
Guest
Concerning one, the term novus ordo is the classical way of designating the Mass celebrated using the Missal promulgated by the Blessed Pope Paul VI in 1969 that incorporate the reforms and renewal mandated in Sacrosanctum Concilium. This is in distinction to the vetus ordo, which would be the Missal of Pope Saint John XXIII in 1962.
Of course, one can speak of the Missal of Pope Saint John XXIII or the Missal of Blessed Pope Paul VI…but, as I taught the seminarians in liturgy and sacraments, vetus ordo and novus ordo extend beyond the Mass to include the rites for the other sacraments, institution of sacramentals, blessings, the liturgy of the hours, etc.
And as for point two…yes.
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Roseeurekacross
Guest
thats so sad and frustrating , Father. its like people cutting their nose off to spite their face. No compromise for the Hosts.No danger of the Vatican reacting that way…at all.
I have dealt with some, who would be well described actually as traditionalist “mobs” who managed to get themselves dis-invited from using the chapel of incredibly kind and generous Religious who had given these people hospitality – but whom the mob maligned as “modernists”.
Finely, the mob exhausted the patience of these Religious. The response? Not “Thank you for the kindness you were able to offer generously us to have Eucharist in your beautiful chapel.” It was more attacks against them for being “against tradition.”
They not only lost their accommodation – but they also lost the solicitude of the Bishop by their growing harangues. With his solicitude gone, at that point the mob turned also on the Bishop as being “modernist”.
Poor delusional tragic people. They had expectations that others would flock to the vetus ordo…of course they didn’t. The turnout was perfectly dismal.
It was a real eye-opener for people who had tried to be helpful to a group petitioning after Quattuor abhinc annos, I can quite assure you. Unforgettable.
I could write a book, just relating to the experiences of having to deal with those attached to the vetus ordo.
I can only imagine the beauty of such a Chapel.
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Fuerza
Guest
Why do these threads always devolve into “trad-bashing” sessions? When traditionalists express dismay over poor attitudes and biases within the more progressive communities they’re labeled as “rigid” or “hostile”, or even “stuck in the past” as if VII erased all other councils. But this, for some reason, is OK?
Stepping off soapbox…I’m out.
Stepping off soapbox…I’m out.
Tis_Bearself
Patron
I’m seeing just as much “bashing” going the other way.
I would appreciate it immensely if people who wish to have traditional Mass would have it without acting like it is the one, the only, true, correct way of doing things, and allow the people who want to have the OF Mass, including having it in jeans, or under the trees, to go about their business without criticism or insults.
I think it is wonderful that there are different forms of the Mass now available so that people can choose what feels best for them and brings them closest to God. I like a little of each. The TLM is not somehow “better” or “holier” than the charismatic Mass at the convention center; Jesus is at both of them.
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Chatter163
Guest
The expression * Novus Ordo Missae *is what the Holy See called it when the revised Order of Mass was first promulgated. That is the origin of the term. I don’t deny that rad Trads use it pejoratively, but they didn’t invent the term.
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otjm
Guest
Cardinal Sarah subsequently walked back his comment, to note that it was a personal opinion.
I would be curious as to the source of your information (perhaps it was from the person who told you there was more grace from the EF than the OF). It was in the last 6 months to a year that a priest, who is devoted to the EF, publicly took the EF attendees to task, noting that if they did not get out an make some serious efforts to spread the EF, that it was likely to disappear to the point of being a " museum piece" and not much more.
The last time I saw any statistics, better than 97% of parishes in the US do not have the EF; and of those which do, some had it weekly, some bi-weekly, and if I recall correctly, one every 6 months.
So it really helps to have some information as to what “growing steadily” means in context, particularly in light of the published commentary, seemingly to the contrary.
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pianistclare
Guest
wrong.
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Chatter163
Guest
The number of FSSP and ICRSS apostolates, ordinations and the databases of Traditional Latin Masses celebrated continues to grow.
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otjm
Guest
Indeed it does, and anyone who is honest about it would agree.
They would also agree that it is an exceedingly small group; including seminarians and postulants, they have a total membership of 425 world wide, with 270 priests, of whom 254 are incardinated world wide, 10 incorporated per annum, 4 associated, and 2 postulants. There are 23 deacons, and 132 non-deacon seminarians, for a total of 425 world wide. They average 11 ordinations a year.
And in comparison, in the US, there are 25,760 diocesan priests in the US, ( with about 16,280 active) and 3,520 graduate level seminarians in the US, and 548 ordinations in 2016.
According to the web page for the ICRSS, they have “about 50 priests” (their words) and other priests may be associated with them, but lack any canonical relationship; and they have 13 apostolates in the US. There are about 17,300+/- parishes in the US.
It is all a matter of perspective. Yes, it continues to grow, but the growth compared to the Church overall, is minuscule.
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Don_Ruggero
Guest
To add to your perspective…
The diocese of Brooklyn in New York ordained 10 to the priesthood. That is one of 200 dioceses in the United States.
I consider the growth of the Priestly Fraternity of Saint Peter, which I have watched by the way for 30 years as of next Summer, to be incredibly unremarkable. Incredibly.
The Jesuits of the United States and Canada just ordained 29 to the priesthood this Summer.
The Institute of Christ the King has fewer priests than a single Benedictine monastery.
Moreover, as these two institutes only minister to people attached to the vetus ordo, they are of minimal significance and lesser utility to a diocese. We have more people asking for Mass in one of the African or Asian languages than we do people asking for a Mass using the vetus ordo.
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Tim_D
Guest
That is incredible.
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otjm
Guest
I don’t find it particularly incredible; allow me to explain.
We have a number of parishes locally which have a significant population of Vietnamese, and they will have a Mass on Sunday in Vietnamese.
We have an even larger population of Hispanics, who likewise have a Sunday Mass in a number of parishes in Spanish.
My mother was born in 1917 in a rural community of mostly Dutch immigrants. She graduated from a Catholic high school that was small - her graduating class was 4 other classmates. She died at 97; but even into her 90’s she would take a back route through the suburbs to go to daily Mass, something she did without much comment to anyone.
One day, when she was in her early 80’s I asked her if there was anything she liked about Vatican 2; the words were barely out of my mouth when she said “Oh yes! the Mass in English!”
Most people are not sophisticated as to either the GIRM or the rubrics, either of the EF or the OF; and she certainly fit within that group. The understand (and she certainly understood) the issue of reverence; but there is a difference between formality and reverence. One can be more or less formal, and still reverent.
There are very few parishes in the US which are all EF, including all Sunday Masses and weekday Masses. I am not trying to berate or belittle anyone; I would wish that hsoe who prefer the EF could find one reasonably close to them. The reality (contrary to what was posted in these forums when Summorum Pontificum was released 10 years ago) is that it has grown to a point of near stabilization, and that is a hair under 3% of all the parishes in the US. These are simply facts, and facts don’t lie.
However, when anyone speaks the facts, they are berated as being anti-EF. The facts are that the vast majority of people - world wide - prefer vernacular to Latin. That does not mean they are opposed to some Latin in the Mass; but they have little or no interest in a Mass in all Latin - rubrics aside.
So it should be no surprise at all that people from Asian or African countries would be more interested in Mass in their native language than in Latin; and coupled with that is to a certain degree, an attitude that rightly or wrongly associates Latin with colonialism, particularly in Africa.
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Chatter163
Guest
But that was not the question. The fact that the FSSP is growing steadily is not dependent on its small size. The fact that it has ordained several hundred priests, nearly all of them young, indicates steady growth. The fact that such a “miniscule” order ordained a number of priests last year (and the year before, and the year before that, and next year) comparable to much larger orders and dioceses if most impressive, indeed.
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pianistclare
Guest
I’ve often wondered why this is such a big deal to people that they just won’t accept that most people are not interested in a Latin Mass.
It matters greatly to some. Great!
It doesn’t matter a bit to me. But people will argue with me to the death that I NEED the Latin Mass.
No. I don’t. I need to go to Mass and worthily receive Eucharist, hear the Word, listen and heed the homily and pray with my brothers and sisters in Christ.
Somone said upthread that people bash the trads.
I don’t feel that. I DO feel that the trads just won’t be happy until we’re all Latinists.
Don’t see that happening.
Why be so angry/defensive about it? Be glad you have what you want. Okay!
I’m fine. Really. Priests are being ordained to all orders and Diocese in decent numbers. MOst of them around here are recruited from South America because we have that need.
But people still complain the Masses are in Spanish. I’m not going to tell immigrants that may not worship in their native tongue. No one should feel that criticism from anyone.
People are just never happy.
It matters greatly to some. Great!
It doesn’t matter a bit to me. But people will argue with me to the death that I NEED the Latin Mass.
No. I don’t. I need to go to Mass and worthily receive Eucharist, hear the Word, listen and heed the homily and pray with my brothers and sisters in Christ.
Somone said upthread that people bash the trads.
I don’t feel that. I DO feel that the trads just won’t be happy until we’re all Latinists.
Don’t see that happening.
Why be so angry/defensive about it? Be glad you have what you want. Okay!
I’m fine. Really. Priests are being ordained to all orders and Diocese in decent numbers. MOst of them around here are recruited from South America because we have that need.
But people still complain the Masses are in Spanish. I’m not going to tell immigrants that may not worship in their native tongue. No one should feel that criticism from anyone.
People are just never happy.
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EricF
Guest
I’ve often wondered why this is such a big deal to people that they just won’t accept that most people are not interested in a Latin Mass.
It matters greatly to some. Great!
It doesn’t matter a bit to me. But people will argue with me to the death that I NEED the Latin Mass.
No. I don’t. I need to go to Mass and worthily receive Eucharist, hear the Word, listen and heed the homily and pray with my brothers and sisters in Christ.
Somone said upthread that people bash the trads.
I don’t feel that. I DO feel that the trads just won’t be happy until we’re all Latinists.
Don’t see that happening.
Why be so angry/defensive about it? Be glad you have what you want. Okay!
I’m fine. Really. Priests are being ordained to all orders and Diocese in decent numbers. MOst of them around here are recruited from South America because we have that need.
But people still complain the Masses are in Spanish. I’m not going to tell immigrants that may not worship in their native tongue. No one should feel that criticism from anyone.
People are just never happy.
I have a little place in New Mexico we use in the summers. The Mass at St. Gertrude’s is not in Latin. They are some of the most devout Catholics I have ever encountered.
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Fuerza
Guest
Is it any different than when people who prefer the OF refer to those who prefer the EF as backwards or sometimes even worse? Several posts in this very thread seem to have insinuated that TLM supporters are insignificant and of little value. It strikes me as wrong to speak of people that way. There are certainly some arrogant and hostile people on the traditional side, but the other side is certainly not immune.I’ve often wondered why this is such a big deal to people that they just won’t accept that most people are not interested in a Latin Mass.
It matters greatly to some. Great!
It doesn’t matter a bit to me. But people will argue with me to the death that I NEED the Latin Mass.
No. I don’t. I need to go to Mass and worthily receive Eucharist, hear the Word, listen and heed the homily and pray with my brothers and sisters in Christ.
Somone said upthread that people bash the trads.
I don’t feel that. I DO feel that the trads just won’t be happy until we’re all Latinists.
Don’t see that happening.
Why be so angry/defensive about it? Be glad you have what you want. Okay!
I’m fine. Really. Priests are being ordained to all orders and Diocese in decent numbers. MOst of them around here are recruited from South America because we have that need.
But people still complain the Masses are in Spanish. I’m not going to tell immigrants that may not worship in their native tongue. No one should feel that criticism from anyone.
People are just never happy.
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