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Calliope
Guest
It’s not an accusation. It’s just a fact. There is actually a lock and key. I’m not sure why you are uncomfortable with that.
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Tis_Bearself
Patron
You are overly focused on what is going on in Australia or what the Australian Commission wrote. Kindly understand that there is an entire world of sex offense going on out there, the Australian Commission are not experts on it.
In the USA there are large numbers of women teachers and coaches who have abused minors in their care. All you need to do is google “teacher sex offender” and a dozen stories will pop up. There are plenty of women right on my local sex offender registry. Sometimes this abuse is downplayed because people in the past considered it a rite of passage or even desirable that a young boy be sexually initiated by an older woman, but that viewpoint is changing (and in addition, some of the female sex offenders abuse young girls).
This has been a problem in Catholic schools as well…google “Catholic school teacher sex offender” and you get a lot of stories about women sex offenders there too.
Unlike many on this forum, I favor the idea of having female clergy in the Catholic Church, but I don’t for one minute think it would solve the problem of sex offense, and I don’t favor it on that basis. Women admitted to diaconate or even priesthood would need to be screened just as carefully as the men.
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Calliope
Guest
Yes, I understand why it is done. I’m not even arguing that is shouldn’t be done, that’s not my place to say. However if another group of people said “We have the body, soul and divinity of Jesus locked up in our building, and you can’t have access to him unless you go through various instructions and rituals.” And also said that if, by some off chance, you make it to heaven, it’s really only because of what their group believes, does and is responsible for, you might think “hmmm…seems like they think they have a monopoly on God.”
To some believers, the idea that Christ needs to be protected by having someone lock him in a box inside of a locked building, is kind of bizarre. After all, Christ himself walked among humans, and he is God. So what conclusion might they arrive at about a group that holds itself responsible for protecting Christ from humanity itself?
It might appear rather different from the other side of things, even though it makes sense to you to do everything within your power to honor Christ, to someone else, it looks like you believe you can keep him under lock and key and tell others that they don’t really have Christ no matter how much they believe they might.
Can a human truly desecrate the Almighty God? What could anyone ever do that would have the least deleterious effect on God? Nothing. Anything they might try might do harm to themselves, but no one has any power of any kind to actually harm God. They might upset those who love him, but God is able to take care of himself. The Catholic Church proposes to be protecting him from humans, say that they hold the keys to heaven, and that no one gets through except through them, and that they have been tasked with protecting Christ himself. Yet you say that the Catholic Church doesn’t claim a monopoly on God. If it’s the only means to Christ and God, then how is that NOT a monopoly?
If there is only one place through which you can access something, that is the definition of monopoly. I’m not making this up. This is what the Church teaches and believes. It allows that God might do things it’s not fully aware of, but it is still being done, mystically, via the Church.
To some believers, the idea that Christ needs to be protected by having someone lock him in a box inside of a locked building, is kind of bizarre. After all, Christ himself walked among humans, and he is God. So what conclusion might they arrive at about a group that holds itself responsible for protecting Christ from humanity itself?
It might appear rather different from the other side of things, even though it makes sense to you to do everything within your power to honor Christ, to someone else, it looks like you believe you can keep him under lock and key and tell others that they don’t really have Christ no matter how much they believe they might.
Can a human truly desecrate the Almighty God? What could anyone ever do that would have the least deleterious effect on God? Nothing. Anything they might try might do harm to themselves, but no one has any power of any kind to actually harm God. They might upset those who love him, but God is able to take care of himself. The Catholic Church proposes to be protecting him from humans, say that they hold the keys to heaven, and that no one gets through except through them, and that they have been tasked with protecting Christ himself. Yet you say that the Catholic Church doesn’t claim a monopoly on God. If it’s the only means to Christ and God, then how is that NOT a monopoly?
If there is only one place through which you can access something, that is the definition of monopoly. I’m not making this up. This is what the Church teaches and believes. It allows that God might do things it’s not fully aware of, but it is still being done, mystically, via the Church.
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Pattylt
Guest
As horrible as this desecration was, I think locking the Church is sad as well. I’m picturing some abused woman hoping to find shelter for the night, running to a Church and finding it locked! Ah well, such is life today.
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Calliope
Guest
Those are the teachings of the Catholic Church. If you don’t believe them that’s between you and your confessor. Whether or not you like the way it sounds or the impression it gives, that’s the way it is. I’m stating facts, you think they cast a bad light. That’s not on me.
I haven’t made any mountain out of you keeping Christ under lock and key. I merely stated that it is a fact, and it appears a few people are uncomfortable with that. I don’t know what to tell you, it’s reality no matter how much you don’t like how it sounds or feels.
You yourself stated that it is done to protect your Lord from being desecrated. That’s fine, but it is still the reality. Claiming the Church doesn’t have a monopoly because it doesn’t sound very nice doesn’t alter the fact that the Church teaches that no one will be saved except through her, and no one has access to the Body of Christ unless they are Catholic.
I don’t really understand what your problem is with that.
I haven’t made any mountain out of you keeping Christ under lock and key. I merely stated that it is a fact, and it appears a few people are uncomfortable with that. I don’t know what to tell you, it’s reality no matter how much you don’t like how it sounds or feels.
You yourself stated that it is done to protect your Lord from being desecrated. That’s fine, but it is still the reality. Claiming the Church doesn’t have a monopoly because it doesn’t sound very nice doesn’t alter the fact that the Church teaches that no one will be saved except through her, and no one has access to the Body of Christ unless they are Catholic.
I don’t really understand what your problem is with that.
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Calliope
Guest
Yes! People outside the church can be saved THROUGH the Church. That’s all I have said that the Church teaches and it’s simply repeated here. God can do what he wants, but he’s doing it through the Church. That’s how the system is set up. Again, I’m not sure what your problem is with that other than that it doesn’t sound warm and fuzzy.
If there is one pipe through which you can get water and all the water ultimately must come through that pipe, that pipe has the monopoly on water. In this case it’s the Catholic Church and salvific grace.
The Catholic Church is the only one with the Real Presence, again, that constitutes a monopoly. I know what the Church teaches. I understand that you don’t like the phraseology, but one source constitutes a monopoly and a tabernacle with a lock and key constitutes a lock and key. Telling others they can’t partake of the Eucharist, which is within the Church’s right, is still telling people they can’t have the body of Christ unless they belong to the Church.
If there is one pipe through which you can get water and all the water ultimately must come through that pipe, that pipe has the monopoly on water. In this case it’s the Catholic Church and salvific grace.
The Catholic Church is the only one with the Real Presence, again, that constitutes a monopoly. I know what the Church teaches. I understand that you don’t like the phraseology, but one source constitutes a monopoly and a tabernacle with a lock and key constitutes a lock and key. Telling others they can’t partake of the Eucharist, which is within the Church’s right, is still telling people they can’t have the body of Christ unless they belong to the Church.
Tis_Bearself
Patron
If other people are so convinced that they have Christ in their very own church, or out on a hillside somewhere, then why would they care what Catholics say or do?
Sounds to me like some of them aren’t so convinced as they think they are, if they have to complain.
The Catholic Church would have preferred that everybody stay a member. We didn’t tell Protestants to schism. We didn’t tell people to leave the Church. People made their own decision to go. Our door is always open to those who sincerely want to return.
We are not responsible if they decide to have hurt feelings over their own decision.
We do not “owe” them Holy Communion, or access to the church.
Sounds to me like some of them aren’t so convinced as they think they are, if they have to complain.
The Catholic Church would have preferred that everybody stay a member. We didn’t tell Protestants to schism. We didn’t tell people to leave the Church. People made their own decision to go. Our door is always open to those who sincerely want to return.
We are not responsible if they decide to have hurt feelings over their own decision.
We do not “owe” them Holy Communion, or access to the church.
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Calliope
Guest
No you don’t and no one suggested you should. I’ve stated facts that people have taken offense to because they don’t like how they sound. I don’t understand what the problem is.
Just own what your faith believes and teaches, no one has complained or asked for an apology.
Just own what your faith believes and teaches, no one has complained or asked for an apology.
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Elf01
Guest
The Orthodox have it too.
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adgloriam
Guest
My first laugh of the day, lovely phrasing
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adgloriam
Guest
I’m convinced I have found the action of the Holy Spirit many times in your writing
And I keep coming back for more
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Mary888
Guest
Just my ramblings…:
The only time the Church was perfect was when it was founded - there was Jesus sitting at the table with the 12 Apostles and He was breaking the bread giving it to them together with wine. That was perfection. But wait! Then there was a traitor amongst them. So not even then it was perfect. But God accepted her as His. So, am I holier than God to say otherwise? But I don’t mean to defend the people accused of these horrid perversities just because they are clergy. If they are guilt they should be laicized and re-enter the church as laypeople and go to prison according to their actions.
Judah accused himself and hanged himself. He had conscience. So yeah maybe in a way that church sitting at the table with Jesus was as close to perfection as the church will ever be until the second coming.
We just have to accept it. And not get mad at God because all these people who have done horrible things using their positions as priests. The “we are all sinners + pink hearts” lament is literally driving people away from the church as much as the sins of the clergy themselves.
Saint Macarius said he saw in the visions priests being judged the hardest out of all people including harder than the pagan worshippers. So if a priest has done pedophilia acts and refuses to just leave the ranks of clergy because he is seriously unworthy of such a position, and whines and convinces people to stay in as priest he will definitely have to answer for what he is doing.
Fatalism helps us survive…
Sometimes…
The only time the Church was perfect was when it was founded - there was Jesus sitting at the table with the 12 Apostles and He was breaking the bread giving it to them together with wine. That was perfection. But wait! Then there was a traitor amongst them. So not even then it was perfect. But God accepted her as His. So, am I holier than God to say otherwise? But I don’t mean to defend the people accused of these horrid perversities just because they are clergy. If they are guilt they should be laicized and re-enter the church as laypeople and go to prison according to their actions.
Judah accused himself and hanged himself. He had conscience. So yeah maybe in a way that church sitting at the table with Jesus was as close to perfection as the church will ever be until the second coming.
We just have to accept it. And not get mad at God because all these people who have done horrible things using their positions as priests. The “we are all sinners + pink hearts” lament is literally driving people away from the church as much as the sins of the clergy themselves.
Saint Macarius said he saw in the visions priests being judged the hardest out of all people including harder than the pagan worshippers. So if a priest has done pedophilia acts and refuses to just leave the ranks of clergy because he is seriously unworthy of such a position, and whines and convinces people to stay in as priest he will definitely have to answer for what he is doing.
Fatalism helps us survive…
Sometimes…
Tis_Bearself
Patron
To God be the glory then, because such wisdom is certainly not emanating from me…
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UrbanMonk
Guest
How do you stay Catholic?
How do you NOT stay Catholic? I honestly don’t understand why the morals of any man would have an effect on you remaining Catholic. What do they have to do with the truth and reality of the sacraments etc?
How do you NOT stay Catholic? I honestly don’t understand why the morals of any man would have an effect on you remaining Catholic. What do they have to do with the truth and reality of the sacraments etc?
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LittleFlower
Guest
One thing I have come to realise and that the power and influence of the Archdioceses and dioceses in dwindling in everyday life. The same applies to priests, and religious of all kinds.
I don’t know many Catholics between 20-35 years of age that are involved on a friendly basis with clergy, bishops, or other religious. I don’t know many that regularly interact with nuns, sisters, brothers, and priests outside of religious settings—primarily Mass.
The institution has lost credibility from a human perspective. The coverups and lies affected so many families. From a Catholic and spiritual perspective the Church exists but how much interaction do we as laity have with it as an institution on a daily basis?
A lot less that 50, 60, 100, 200 years ago.
With every priest, bishop, and cardinal that faces a criminal charge the less the laity will relate to them as brothers in Christ.
At least this is what I have found in Australia.
I don’t know many Catholics between 20-35 years of age that are involved on a friendly basis with clergy, bishops, or other religious. I don’t know many that regularly interact with nuns, sisters, brothers, and priests outside of religious settings—primarily Mass.
The institution has lost credibility from a human perspective. The coverups and lies affected so many families. From a Catholic and spiritual perspective the Church exists but how much interaction do we as laity have with it as an institution on a daily basis?
A lot less that 50, 60, 100, 200 years ago.
With every priest, bishop, and cardinal that faces a criminal charge the less the laity will relate to them as brothers in Christ.
At least this is what I have found in Australia.
Tis_Bearself
Patron
In USA we don’t interact with priests and religious so much as we used to, but it’s primarily because there are fewer of them, and everybody including the priests and religious are super busy, and also because we are a more mobile society. People don’t stay in the same parish for 20 years and do all their church going there and know all the priests like they used to do. They may attend four or five different parishes over that space of time, and they may church hop. Also, there are fewer Catholic schools, and more lay teachers in the existing ones, so all the interaction one used to have with priests and sisters from them teaching you, or teaching your children, has decreased.
It’s not due to innate distrust. Catholics don’t see some priest and cross the street because we don’t trust him.
Maybe it’s different in Australia.
It’s not due to innate distrust. Catholics don’t see some priest and cross the street because we don’t trust him.
Maybe it’s different in Australia.
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LittleFlower
Guest
Yes, I agree with you there It’s not all inherently because of allegations. It’s also due many of the reasons you just listed.
All these reasons and happenings together however have made the religious and the dioceses quite removed from everyday life for the ordinary Catholic.
This lack of influence and power (if you so will) has changed how they are approached. I would say their “pedestal” (not a great choice of words, and I don’t mean it derogatively) has been significantly lowered in the eyes of the laity.
All these reasons and happenings together however have made the religious and the dioceses quite removed from everyday life for the ordinary Catholic.
This lack of influence and power (if you so will) has changed how they are approached. I would say their “pedestal” (not a great choice of words, and I don’t mean it derogatively) has been significantly lowered in the eyes of the laity.
Tis_Bearself
Patron
I’m fine with them coming down off the pedestal. They never should have been up there, except in the sense that it is the pastor’s parish and the bishop’s diocese and they have the last word on how things are done in their respective jurisdictions.
My mother never put priests or religious up on a pedestal. She was taught not to by her mother and her family. It didn’t mean that they weren’t respectful or that they went around picking arguments with priests and religious, it simply meant that if a priest or religious order member crossed the line (for example, a nun bullying a kid in school, which actually happened to my mother as a child) the family didn’t just sit there and take it or excuse it.
The best priests and bishops are the ones who are the kindest and most humble. Not the ones who’d want to be on a pedestal anyway.
My mother never put priests or religious up on a pedestal. She was taught not to by her mother and her family. It didn’t mean that they weren’t respectful or that they went around picking arguments with priests and religious, it simply meant that if a priest or religious order member crossed the line (for example, a nun bullying a kid in school, which actually happened to my mother as a child) the family didn’t just sit there and take it or excuse it.
The best priests and bishops are the ones who are the kindest and most humble. Not the ones who’d want to be on a pedestal anyway.
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LittleFlower
Guest
I agree with you again.
They shouldn’t be on a pedestal at all. They should, just like everyone, be treated with respect and dignity.
Sadly, they have been placed on them by many. Even by those who also wear the cloth, which made for a rather “group think” approach to serious issues and allegations.
Good on your grandmother! I read your story on how she handled your mothers bullying in another thread.
They shouldn’t be on a pedestal at all. They should, just like everyone, be treated with respect and dignity.
Sadly, they have been placed on them by many. Even by those who also wear the cloth, which made for a rather “group think” approach to serious issues and allegations.
Good on your grandmother! I read your story on how she handled your mothers bullying in another thread.
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Bon_Croix
Guest
Settlement is a lesser standard.
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