Struggles with the Morality of Homosexuality

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I am a twenty something graduate student at a major American university and homosexuality is something that is not only discussed frankly on a regular basis but most people have friends, associates, professors who are gay. I am also a musician and as such I have grown up around gay people all of my life.

I am a new Catholic and I say AMEN to everything that the Church teaches. But I have struggled, not with the understanding of the Church’s teaching on homosexuality, but with the knee jerk, gut wrenching reality of looking a close friend that you respect and love in the face and telling them that you believe what they are doing is morally wrong; something that they argue is the way that God made them. Both of my parents are scientists, my mother was actually at the forefront of AIDS research so I know all the stats about how the biological claims of homosexuality are not fully conclusive, etc. That is not my question. My question is how can I love my gay friends while at the same time saying that I think that something with which they define their identity is morally wrong? In the past I have often been in situations when a good friend who knows that I am Christian (I was Evangelical before coming into Full Communion this past December) asks me point blank whether or not I think that they are sinning. When I answer in the affirmative the pain on their face makes me wish that I could rip my heart out.

I love Catholic answers radio and forums – they were instrumental in bringing me into the Church and continue to be a source of instruction and encouragement, but I have not found a answer to the human dimension of the homosexuality question. So many people who are vociferously against Gay marriage and the “gay agenda” seem to have no close homosexual friends – they have never felt the stabbing pain of saying to a close friend that you believe what they are doing…really the fundamental way that they define themselves is wrong and must be repented. That they cannot…should not…be allowed to adopt, have a family, or the basic medical right to make decisions when one or another might fall ill. In my heart of hearts I just can’t seem to reconcile loving and serving my neighbor, my very friends and indeed relatives, if I actively block their quest for basic things like medical rights. But I do ultimately believe what the Church teaches, and I am content to be bound by Her, regardless of my own feelings. My solution has been to keep my head down and avoid the question or any thought of the issue of homosexuality, but there must be a better way. Does anyone have any thoughts?
 
Excellent post.

I’m assuming that you don’t have children; correct me if I’m wrong.

I see similarities between this dilemma and raising kids. There’s stuff they want to do all the time that we know isn’t good for them, but because we love them, we correct them and let them know such-and-such isn’t allowed.

Of course, we don’t have that parental authority over our gay relatives, friends, etc., but I see it as a situation where if you’re asked directly and you don’t speak up, it comes off as an endorsement, but if you do, sure enough you’re going to cause some offense.

There’s no easy answer. I’d be tempted to lean toward being somewhat apologetic if the situation calls for it…“I’m sorry, Joe, but this is what my religion and I believe, so yes, we consider it sinning”. Other situations may call for a more direct and less apologetic approach.

I think however it’s done, it must be done in a “hate-the-sin-love-the-sinner” manner. How to accomplish that, methinks, depends on the individuals involved and the specific situation.

The extreme responses, i.e. “Bible thumping” or “Hey, whatever you do is fine with me, I’m not your Daddy” methinks are usually not helpful in the longrun when dealing with friends, family members, etc.
 
I would also separate the person from the action. The Church agrees that we don’t know why some people have (exclusive or otherwise) same sex attractions, and acknowledges that it’s a great cross to bear for many of them. However, homosexual ***activity *** is sinful, as is all sexual activity outside of marriage (and marriage can never be defined as anything other than between one man and one woman). So while we love the people who experience same sex attractions, engaging in homosexual sexual activity is a sin. Just as I love my (grown) niece and nephews, but by living w/ their boyfriend and girlfriends they are sinning (and yes, I tell them that!).

In Christ,

Ellen
 
This is indeed a heart-wrenching situation. As the two previous posters have said, you can love the sinner while hating the sin. You are morally obligated to tell your friends that they are commiting grave sins. It seems a bit heartless, but look at it this way: what matters more, your friendship, or their souls? You must try to enlighten them about what they are doing, regardless of the effect it could have on your relationship. However, I think that if you explain it fully, and tell them that you are not abandoning them, still want to be their friend, and that you recognize how difficult their situation must be, it would keep the damage to a minimal.

Also, by keeping your head down and not saying anything, you are implying that you don’t have a problem with it.
 
The Master loved thieves, hypocrites, and prostitutes, but he most certainly did not encourage them to be sinful. Just try to lead by example, and have a healthy dose of Aquinas and Chesterton under your belt in case you get someone who is particularly objectionable.
 
You could also take the sting out of it by reminding them that the rules of chastity apply equally for all heterosexual or not. And we are called to in chastity have charity for all, so for a Christian, one’s sexual orientation, mutable or not, should not be the focus of our lives.

That’s not ducking, that’s putting it in a context that is not so inflated as secular society gives sexuality.
 
Love the Person… Hate the Sin.

Don’t like to put it so simply, but this is how I teach my children to look at others. We get snippy at what other people do and we might say to ourselves, like in the car driving…
“That was dumb… But I love you Brother / Sister”

Paul
 
I don’t know as there is an answer to your dilemma. If deep in your heart and soul you truly believe that God created people in this manner and demands of them a way of living that others can have a choice about, then you must adhere to that belief it seems to me. But I for one could never agree that God does this. Priests in the Roman tradition have the choice to become priests and thus celibate. Single people have the choice to marry and enter into sexual matters with spouses. But somehow homosexuals are created this way against their will and thus consigned to such an existence perpetually? I am afraid I cannot see that as a truth. So I would say it is something only you can decide. If you decide the Roman Church is right, you must be honest with your friends, knowing that you are indeed causing them deep pain. I can see no other way. Your gentle approach is to be commended, but as you realize it still deeply hurts to be told such things when the person justifiably feels that he is a good person with rights to love and be loved. I sympathize surely with your plight.
 
AlexiaMusing said:
I don’t know as there is an answer to your dilemma. If deep in your heart and soul you truly believe that God created people in this manner and demands of them a way of living that others can have a choice about, then you must adhere to that belief it seems to me. But I for one could never agree that God does this. Priests in the Roman tradition have the choice to become priests and thus celibate. Single people have the choice to marry and enter into sexual matters with spouses. But somehow homosexuals are created this way against their will and thus consigned to such an existence perpetually? I am afraid I cannot see that as a truth. So I would say it is something only you can decide. If you decide the Roman Church is right, you must be honest with your friends, knowing that you are indeed causing them deep pain. I can see no other way. Your gentle approach is to be commended, but as you realize it still deeply hurts to be told such things when the person justifiably feels that he is a good person with rights to love and be loved. I sympathize surely with your plight.
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This holds no validity whatsoever. Pedophiles are created the way they are. This does not mean their urges ought to be indulged. Predisposition of unnatural (in the Aristotelian sense) urges does not entail the right to act on urges. A married man is not sinful if unintentional impure thoughts penetrate his mind. However, the adulterer is the sinner. His actions can be justly judged by the community. In this case, the Catholic Church and Reason itself.
 
Feste_1242 said:
You are morally obligated to tell your friends that they are commiting grave sins. It seems a bit heartless, but look at it this way: what matters more, your friendship, or their souls?

Also, by keeping your head down and not saying anything, you are implying that you don’t have a problem with it.
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I’m not sure quite what you are saying. Certainly if they ask if you believe that homosexual acts are sinful, you should respond with Church teaching. But I don’t think you should bring up the topic youself so that you can take the role of moral teacher - that will only drive them away. You have to wait for a teachable moment.
 
I completely understand your dilemma. I’m also at a large American university … have LOTS of friends, colleagues, and professors (and a sister) who are gay. I mostly try to avoid the subject.
You’re much better than me - you seem to have the courage to speak up, even though it breaks your heart. I had a lot of gay friends from before I came back to the church, so every expects me to be okay with it - I always was. Now that I’ve come back, it’s very hard to deal with.
I’ve mentioned this in confession, and the priest asked me to read some stuff about it. I wish it had helped … it’s not that I don’t understand the issues. I just can’t reconcile it with telling a friend of mine, who is in a stable, long-term relationship, that what he’s doing is wrong.
Most of my gay friends came from extremely repressive, evangelical backgrounds. Some were disowned by their families. My family almost disowned my sister.
So you’re on the right track - at least you speak up. I’ll pray for you.
 
For the most part, excellent responses IMHO (AlexiaMusing is the one definite exception).

We always need to speak the truth, even if it is painful. I am the only Catholic in my family and one of my brothers is atheist/agnostic (he is not militantly atheist, but he doesn’t believe there is a god/God). He is also in theater arts, so similar to nsm’s situation, there are a lot of homosexual people in his circle of friends. He married a woman that five months into their marriage announced that she was bi-sexual and wanted a woman to move in with them. Because my brother’s moral compass is broken in some areas, he agreed. It was very painful for our family. When my mom (a relativistic, sort-of Christian) told him that the “third wheel” wasn’t welcome at family gatherings, my brother pushed to have them recognized as a “family unit.” I also had to tell him that the kids could not stay the night at his house. While all of this was very painful, we didn’t stop loving my brother. When his spouse left both him and the “third wheel,” he came to his senses. He realized once he was out of the situation, how messed up it was. In my opinion, things would have been worse if we had compromised our values. They also would have been worse if we had taken the bible-thumping “you will burn in hell and we disown you, you spawn of the devil!” approach.

Look at it this way. Through your loving witness, one these friends may come to embrace the Truth and become a faithful Catholic (iow…a struggling sinner like the rest of us who confesses and does their best with the help of God’s grace).

BTW…in the case of my brother, I was more liberal at the time, and even my gay coworkers whom I discussed the situation with (“am I being too conservative?” :o 😛 ) said “what?? She needs to choose!” 😛
 
I guess I understand your dilemna, but I look at homosexuality in terms of the sexuality itself, and I love the Church’s consistency in sexual matters for this. Of course our Church teaches that sexuality is wrong unless it is within marriage where the openness to having children exists. By this standard the homosexual act is illicit, but so also is fornication, masturbation, adultery, etc… I see it as an illicit sex act among many illicit sex acts, not as some type of human stain.

When an adult friend of mine launches on an affair, and I care about him, and an occasion to do so arises, I tell him he is making a mistake. I wait until it is appropriate, when he asks me for advise or when he is reflecting because I want to persuade him. In no case will I ever indicate to him I approve, but I can stand silent when it is advisable, and wait for a good time. Sometimes, in the end, telling him the truth may cost me our friendship, but I will not indicate to him that in my mind what he is doing is ok believing as I do his conduct has the potential to destroy him. I know the two situations are not completely analogous, but I do think there is much in common.
 
Dale_M said:
I’m not sure quite what you are saying. Certainly if they ask if you believe that homosexual acts are sinful, you should respond with Church teaching. But I don’t think you should bring up the topic youself so that you can take the role of moral teacher - that will only drive them away. You have to wait for a teachable moment.
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…Thought I was pretty clear… We are morally obligated to inform our gay friends and family that what they are doing is wrong. That means- you know, instead of re-typing all of it, I’ll just quote it:
Feste_1242 said:
This is indeed a heart-wrenching situation. As the two previous posters have said, you can love the sinner while hating the sin. You are morally obligated to tell your friends that they are commiting grave sins. It seems a bit heartless, but look at it this way: what matters more, your friendship, or their souls? You must try to enlighten them about what they are doing, regardless of the effect it could have on your relationship. However, I think that if you explain it fully, and tell them that you are not abandoning them, still want to be their friend, and that you recognize how difficult their situation must be, it would keep the damage to a minimal.

Also, by keeping your head down and not saying anything, you are implying that you don’t have a problem with it.
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Ok? My point was, again, that we must tell them they are sinning, and we must not simply keep our heads down. However, it’s perfectly fine to wait for an appropriate moment.
 
My question is how can I love my gay friends while at the same time saying that I think that something with which they define their identity is morally wrong?
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A very thoughtful post from a very faith-filled young man!

Regardless of whether your gay friends identify themselves primarily by their sexual behavior, you must remember that, as Catholics, we do not define people in this way. Before all else, we are all creatures of God, hopefully all on our way back to Him. Some need more help than others!😉 If you separate the behavior from the person, it is easier to find the love, compassion, empathy, and strength you need to live your faith.

I spent many years in the gay lifestyle. My sis is an active lesbian. Most of my friends from the “old days” are still active homosexuals. When I came back to the Church, I DID NOT go about telling them they were sinning. I DID NOT preach the Bible or the Catechism or spend ANY time focusing on THEIR behaviors.

What I did was talk about MY journey in faith. I share with those who were interested about my adherence to the tenets of the faith - ESPECIALLY the one about chastity! If they expressed shock, I explained the Church position and why I felt called to obey. I NEVER pointed to their behavior but rather used myself as an example. I DID remain prepared to answer if they asked point blank questions about their lifestyles - but no one ever did. People are not stupid. If you spend time talking about your faith and all that it means to you, including the difficult parts, folks will get the message. Most people are not very eager to solicit conversations about their own controversial behaviors. But if they do, be ready to give a response, with an enormous amount of compassion and love.

Good luck to you! Take heart - you’re not alone in this!
 
CapIV said:
This holds no validity whatsoever. Pedophiles are created the way they are. This does not mean their urges ought to be indulged. Predisposition of unnatural (in the Aristotelian sense) urges does not entail the right to act on urges. A married man is not sinful if unintentional impure thoughts penetrate his mind. However, the adulterer is the sinner. His actions can be justly judged by the community. In this case, the Catholic Church and Reason itself.
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Here we go. EVERY SINGLE time somebody brings up homosexuality, pedophiles get mentioned. I’ve said it once, I’ll say it again. You can’t compare the two. It’s a BAD COMPARISON.
 
thomfra said:
Here we go. EVERY SINGLE time somebody brings up homosexuality, pedophiles get mentioned. I’ve said it once, I’ll say it again. You can’t compare the two. It’s a BAD COMPARISON.
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Actually, thomfra, there is nothing wrong with the type of comparison made in this case. There was no statement that pedophiles are the same as homosexuals and/or that all homosexuals are pedophiles. That would be wrong.

The point CapVI made is simply that “born that way” is not an excuse for sin. If someone is born a pedophile, or a cleptomaniac, or an alcoholic; we don’t accpept the sin of pedophilia, or theft, or drunkenness. 🤷

Now, for clarity, I am not saying that all drunks are pedophiles. 😉 😛
 
rlg94086 said:
Actually, thomfra, there is nothing wrong with the type of comparison made in this case. There was no statement that pedophiles are the same as homosexuals and/or that all homosexuals are pedophiles. That would be wrong.

The point CapVI made is simply that “born that way” is not an excuse for sin. If someone is born a pedophile, or a cleptomaniac, or an alcoholic; we don’t accpept the sin of pedophilia, or theft, or drunkenness. 🤷

Now, for clarity, I am not saying that all drunks are pedophiles. 😉 😛
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I can see your point. But it is very rare indeed that one sees alcholics, cleptomaniacs mentioned when talking about homosexuals…

It is invariably pedophiles which are used in the comparision. I don’t know the poster, and maybe it was just conincidence.

But I think this constant association with pedophiles it is part of a general demonisation of homosexuals which doesn’t belong on a catholic forum.
 
thomfra said:
I can see your point. But it is very rare indeed that one sees alcholics, cleptomaniacs mentioned when talking about homosexuals…

It is invariably pedophiles which are used in the comparision. I don’t know the poster, and maybe it was just conincidence.

But I think this constant association with pedophiles it is part of a general demonisation of homosexuals which doesn’t belong on a catholic forum.
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In fact, alcoholism has been used countless times as a comparison. That usually gets criticized as well. Some people are not happy when homosexuality is “compared” to anything with a “negative” connotation.

The intent behind such comparisons is not to equate the material effects of the predisposition, but rather that a predisposition EXISTS in all these cases.

I saw a Dr. Phil show the other day (yes, I’m ashamed) about obesity. The guest, who was obese, was claiming that science has proven that there is an obesity “gene”. Phil, in all his wisdom (:rolleyes:) stated that a predisposition means ONLY that the person MIGHT become a thing - not they they WILL become that thing, whether it’s an obese person, or an alcoholic, or a pedophile, or even an active homosexual. Now, if Dr. Phil gets it, how difficult can it be?
 
re: dealing with gays.

I have gay friends and acquaintances. I just don’t bring the subject up at all. They know I’m Catholic. That’s that.

If they want heavy philosophy from you, that’s another matter. Dish out as much as you want. I don’t think anyone should run up to someone, press a hand on a shoulder, and say, “hey son, you’re a sinner.”

Hate the sin, love the sinner. I don’t have trouble doing this. Of course, at your age, you’re beginning to see better the human and social psychologies around you. Moral subjects can be very difficult to deal with. I’d say, go slow and take it easy; no heavy handed stuff.

re: pedophiles

I believe there is larger portion of homosexuals who are pedophiles or have pedophile interests, than there are heterosexuals with a pedophile interest. There is a whole “gay initiation” concept.

Me, I’m so tired with this homosexual business that I’m thinking about sending some bucks to fight the nonsense going on in California.
 
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