Struggling. Am I a true Christian?

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I am just so confused right now. I know most Christians don’t doubt to the extent that I do. I’m getting frustrated. It seems like every Christian church is attacking at least one other church, calling the members heretics or “wolves in sheep’s clothing,” and stuff like that. I have actually been trying to do the right thing lately, and trying to be more genuine. Like I try to be more loving towards others. But I don’t feel like I am making a whole lot of progress. I still fall into sin and complain and get angry.
It’s like Paul said. I do the total opposite of what I want to do, which is following Christ. I feel like I have no self control, and am bearing little or no fruit at all. I am getting ticked off at myself and God. I feel like God does not want me to be a Christian and like he’s condemning me (I know it says, “No condemnation for those who are in Christ,” but I wonder, am I really in Christ? If I wasn’t, then I would be condemned.
I wonder, can any church be trusted anymore? Are things going to just get worse in the world? How can a believer stay a believer in these days? How do you not become distracted?
Don’t worry. I don’t see myself falling away from the faith, but I am struggling for understanding.
And everyone says, Whether you are or are not a Christian is between you and God. So if you are saved you should know. If you are not saved, you should know. So I should know but I’m not so sure I do.
I think you’ve bought into some very destructive and unorthodox ideas about what a Christian is. A Christian is not a person who feels a certain way, and certainly not a person who never doubts or struggles. Whether or not you are a Christian is not between you and God, if by that you mean that it is a private, internal matter in your own consciousness. A Christian is someone who is baptized and continues faithful to the profession they made (or that was made for them) in baptism.

What evangelicals call “being a true Christian,” Catholics call “being in a state of grace.” In Catholic theology, you can’t know for sure (though you can be reasonably confident) whether you are in a state of grace or not. This sounds scary to many folks, but in my opinion it’s actually comforting, because it makes the terrifying question you ask in the OP entirely pointless and unnecessary. You don’t need to delve into the depths of your soul to figure out if you are a “true Christian” or “have been saved.” You look to the death of Jesus on the Cross, the power of the Resurrection, and the sacrament of baptism in which you died and rose again with Jesus. That’s how you have been saved. Just keep looking to Jesus, not to your own soul.

By the way, what I’m telling you is not just Catholic and/or Anglican–much of it is taken from Luther, whose views of salvation were quite different from those of modern evangelicals precisely in this way!

Edwin
 
Don’t worry all people struggle with their faith. Some of the people who had to struggle the most are the saints becasue God uses struggles to help us conform to the image of His Son. St. Theresa of Avila saw that she was impotent to the power of sin. It is important to recognize that we can do nothing without God. He wants you to recognize that you are totally reliant upon Him. If you thought you were doing everything right then there is actually a problem because we are all sinners.

The Catholic Church is the Church founded by Jesus Christ and is the church, that while is full of sinners like every church, is guided by the Holy Spirit. Christ left the church with seven sacraments in order to help people attain salvation. Unfortunately the Catholic Church is the only church who believe in all seven of the sacraments.
Untrue. The Orthodox also do.

Anglicans practice all the seven rites that Catholics call “sacraments,” but not all Anglicans believe they are all sacraments, and Catholics don’t think that most of our sacraments are valid, so I won’t make a case for us as an exception to your statement. But the Orthodox certainly are.

Edwin
 
Thanks everyone. I am just so used to everyone telling me that being a Christian is a “piece of cake.” And there are those who believe they are righteous and they feel more righteous if they are able to put someone else down.
Others may be trying to help, but they say things that confuse me, and try to present God to me as a “big, cuddly teddy bear.” I know he is not an “ogre” either. But He won’t put up with everything. So I guess that’s a lot of my problem. People tell me to believe things about God or Christ that seem to contradict what I believe the Bible is saying.
 
Thanks everyone. I am just so used to everyone telling me that being a Christian is a “piece of cake.” And there are those who believe they are righteous and they feel more righteous if they are able to put someone else down.
Others may be trying to help, but they say things that confuse me, and try to present God to me as a “big, cuddly teddy bear.” I know he is not an “ogre” either. But He won’t put up with everything. So I guess that’s a lot of my problem. People tell me to believe things about God or Christ that seem to contradict what I believe the Bible is saying.
jesusismyfriend,

If they teach you that becoming a christian is a piece of cake then they are telling you very much wrong. It is not a piece of cake by any means. God presents us his love and forgiveness and opens the way for a relationship with him through faith and repentance.

He wants us to be changed on the inside as Jesus makes clear. That is not a piece of cake. He wants us to put our undoubting faith in his power to forgive us and love us and always be faithful to us. He wants us to be changed into a person who loves Him with all our heart and mind and our neighbor as ourself.

Who would be so foolish as to call that a piece of Cake? We must desire it above all things yet at the same time be helpless to achieve it. We must depend on Gods help and as long as we doubt if we are a christian we must pray night and day for Gods grace to make us aware of how much we are forgiven, so Gods Love can enter our heart and change us. Paul taught “Be not conformed to this world but be transformed by the renewal of your mind.” God will do that for us if we ask for long enough as we respond to Gods high calling.

It is not for the faint of heart. It is not a piece of cake.

Rob
 
I wonder, can any church be trusted anymore? Are things going to just get worse in the world? How can a believer stay a believer in these days? How do you not become distracted?
Don’t worry. I don’t see myself falling away from the faith, but I am struggling for understanding.
And everyone says, Whether you are or are not a Christian is between you and God. So if you are saved you should know. If you are not saved, you should know. So I should know but I’m not so sure I do.
Some people can be trusted, others should not be trusted. If you’re able to join a church filled with trustworthy people, you are fortunate.
A believer stays a believer in these times the same way anyone’s ever become a believer or stayed a believer in any given time. God saves and God sustains. God initially regenerates and indwells at the time when you initially become a newly transformed person in Christ, so it’s good to think back to the time when God regenerated and initially indwelt you. Then think ahead a bit to see if God continued to live within you and do the things that He’s promised to do. If you only come up with things that you’ve done and efforts on your own part and there’s nothing that can be attributed to God’s doing, that’s probably the right answer- even if it’s a scary one. But if God’s done all that while being situated within you, praise God- and ask Him to continue doing some more specific things within you. Otherwise, you might have to ask Him to transform and indwell you first, wait for Him to do that, and then ask Him to do other stuff.
Don’t worry, you’re not the only one. A lot of people feel the same way, but it’s easy to feel embarrassed about bringing these doubts to light in a church setting. Most people spend months or years wrestling with it very privately, and if they ever do talk to someone about it, it’s kept within a tight-knit group of people.

Just my opinion, but I am hoping that you can find some Christians that you can trust implicitly- and more than that, I hope you can get involved with a small group that will allow you to work through all of this in that kind of setting. I’m glad that you’re putting this out there because most people who feel the same way just say nothing for long periods of time if at all. I’m guessing that quite a few people who are reading this know how you feel from exoerience- if not right now, maybe at some point in the past, and in hindsight it’s not uncommon for people to look back on that and wish they had the courage to do what you’re doing. I fall in the latter group myself- and while it’s not necessary for everyone or anyone else to weigh in, I want you to know that most of us know where you’re coming from and are familiar with the difficulty of talking about it.
That being said, it’s my opinion that small-group interaction is the best thing you can do in this situation, and this type of forum-based interaction is good practice for getting yourself out there along with a tool that can help you find the best way to get stuff done. What that stuff is can be hard to say, and it can take a good deal of soul-searching to really figure out. That can be a part of the small-group experience too, though- you got people who can help you work through it and figure it out.
 
I am just so confused right now. I know most Christians don’t doubt to the extent that I do. I’m getting frustrated. It seems like every Christian church is attacking at least one other church, calling the members heretics or “wolves in sheep’s clothing,” and stuff like that. I have actually been trying to do the right thing lately, and trying to be more genuine. Like I try to be more loving towards others. But I don’t feel like I am making a whole lot of progress. I still fall into sin and complain and get angry.
It’s like Paul said. I do the total opposite of what I want to do, which is following Christ. I feel like I have no self control, and am bearing little or no fruit at all. I am getting ticked off at myself and God. I feel like God does not want me to be a Christian and like he’s condemning me (I know it says, “No condemnation for those who are in Christ,” but I wonder, am I really in Christ? If I wasn’t, then I would be condemned.
I wonder, can any church be trusted anymore? Are things going to just get worse in the world? How can a believer stay a believer in these days? How do you not become distracted?
Don’t worry. I don’t see myself falling away from the faith, but I am struggling for understanding.
And everyone says, Whether you are or are not a Christian is between you and God. So if you are saved you should know. If you are not saved, you should know. So I should know but I’m not so sure I do.
I think all of us (and I am certainly including myself! See the top-right religious description) have been in the state in which you are currently.

It is difficult to be a believer and stay one. While life can be short for some, it can be long for others. And with all that we have thrown at us, it’s tempting to consider falling away or to lapse or get distracted by something. But that is part of the challenge. We are called to come back, to try again. And despite the fact that we will obviously fail many, many times, we have an all-forgiving God ready to pick up the mess we’ve made of ourselves.

My personal opinion is that you are a Christian. One who is obviously struggling, but a Christian nonetheless. That you might be in lapse mode is certainly not a good thing, but it is normal for a Christian to question which denomination is the true Church and whether God is condemning or not.

The only thing I can tell you is that, in everything, just honestly seek God. If you honestly seek God he will meet you where you are. And if you ask for wisdom to lead you to his Church, he’ll lead you to it.
 
Thanks and I know everyone is right. I grew up in churches with people who tried to teach me otherwise. I’m not saying they are not saved or will not be, but some (at this point of their lives) kind of serve a “false-God.” He is not the same one in the Bible. These people will acknowledge that God is loving, but they don’t realize that He has to discipline us because of His love. It’s like they have shoved God into a box, and say, “This is how He is. He is all modern, hip and cool. The standards He had years ago have changed.” But many parts of the Bible say that God does not change, that He is always the same. We don’t need to try to make God perfect; He already is. People’s idea of perfect has changed. They think He needs to be “Santa Clause” or something to be loving. The truth was, if God ignored the problems in this world, we would be a lot worse off.
 
Thanks and I know everyone is right. I grew up in churches with people who tried to teach me otherwise. I’m not saying they are not saved or will not be, but some (at this point of their lives) kind of serve a “false-God.” He is not the same one in the Bible. These people will acknowledge that God is loving, but they don’t realize that He has to discipline us because of His love. It’s like they have shoved God into a box, and say, “This is how He is. He is all modern, hip and cool. The standards He had years ago have changed.” But many parts of the Bible say that God does not change, that He is always the same. We don’t need to try to make God perfect; He already is. People’s idea of perfect has changed. They think He needs to be “Santa Clause” or something to be loving. The truth was, if God ignored the problems in this world, we would be a lot worse off.
I think we all know a lot of people like that.

A lot of people go to the extremes - either to them God is simply all loving and therefore never disciplines his children, or he is only fire and brimstone.
 
I just want to thank the Op for this thread. It has helped me immensely.

May God bless all of you.
 
First be ASSURED you NOT alone in what your feeling. Quite possible the HS is TRYING to share a truth with you,🙂
.

Truth can only “BE ONE” per issue.🙂 Does God WANT [and even command] you to be a “Christian” or something of HIS OWN Making; His own Choosing:shrug: THAT really is the right question isn’t it?

Only One can:) WHY?

And this is proveable through the Bible [which happens to be a catholic Book]

Never Ever; not one time can anyone point to authorization from or by God for:

Belief in more than One God [Triune]

Of MORE than only One set of Faith beliefs [see Mt. 28:16-20] THAT IS REALLY THE PROBLEM YOUR STRUGGLING WITH:o THOUSANDS of differing belief systems. The CC still has ONE: and only 23 brances connected to the Vine / Christ/ and His CC after 2,000 years.😃 ALL Holding the same Doctrines and Dogma’s.

Or more than Only One Church [the NT alone has more than 100 proofs of this fact]

Or did Christ found more than One Church [today’s CC] which can be historically proven to date bak to Jesus and the Apostles themselves. [John 20:19-23]

Questioning weater or not you are saved is the VERY Question the HS is trying to get you to ask yourself. WHY?

Because the ONLY way to salvation is God’s WAY! All of the man made myths are only that hopeful thinking of men who think they know more or perhaps better than God. either God IS in chatge or we are. the responsibility cannot be sharred.

If you’d even more evidence send me a private message. Maybe I can help?

I’ll pray with and for you!

pat/PJM
yes it is interesting to see all the myths and man made beliefs in all the different churches–

i guess you have to remember if it is NOT in the TORAH – then it is a man-made up ceremony

just remember that moses-- assembled the Torah-- and God layed out the ceremonies-- that would be and receive a blessing from–HIM

all these people “pretending” that they are receiving “spiritual grace” by performing some religious MAN-Made-UP – ceremony and belief…

ya -sure-- there is some confusion of what Saint Paul wrote about–

as Peter said" no Torah scripture is 2 b interpreted for one’s personal belief"

so now every- 1 - is interpreting all of Saint Paul’s writings to their own personal belief
 
If you have been baptised, the Lord has elected you to salvation. All you have to do now is make sure you keep the faith in the Cross of Christ that he has given you by his grace. In God you will find your true freedom.
 
I am just so confused right now. I know most Christians don’t doubt to the extent that I do. I’m getting frustrated. It seems like every Christian church is attacking at least one other church, calling the members heretics or “wolves in sheep’s clothing,” and stuff like that. I have actually been trying to do the right thing lately, and trying to be more genuine. Like I try to be more loving towards others. But I don’t feel like I am making a whole lot of progress. I still fall into sin and complain and get angry.
It’s like Paul said. I do the total opposite of what I want to do, which is following Christ. I feel like I have no self control, and am bearing little or no fruit at all. I am getting ticked off at myself and God. I feel like God does not want me to be a Christian and like he’s condemning me (I know it says, “No condemnation for those who are in Christ,” but I wonder, am I really in Christ? If I wasn’t, then I would be condemned.
I wonder, can any church be trusted anymore? Are things going to just get worse in the world? How can a believer stay a believer in these days? How do you not become distracted?
Don’t worry. I don’t see myself falling away from the faith, but I am struggling for understanding.
You should consider something here. Feelings of agitation and frustration are many times the Holy Spirit working within us; prompting us to explore and seek truth and to turn toward God and away from our old way of doing things.
And everyone says, Whether you are or are not a Christian is between you and God. So if you are saved you should know. If you are not saved, you should know. So I should know but I’m not so sure I do.
What you have heard here is false. I have confidence in my salvation but to say that I know I am saved is to fall into the sin of presumption. Christ gave us a Church. You are not on your own here. The Church provides the means to salvation. It is where we enter into the family of God through Baptism. It is where we are fed by the body and blood of Christ. When we fall into sin it is where we meet Christ in the sacrament of Reconciliation and repare our relationship with God. If we are faithful to the Church we are faithful to Christ who is the head.

We don’t go to Church because we are holy. We go to Church because we are broken and in need of healing. You don’t have to wander out there alone, my friend. We’re all in the same boat when it comes to our human condition. We are all in need of healing and the Church is where the Great Physician dwells and interacts with us through the sacraments.
 
packermann,

I love your testimony. Can I translate it into Vietnamse and post it in the Vietnamse Catholic website?

In my country, the trend is mostly one way, Catholic to Protestant, not much from the other direction, and if any, mostly from lapsed Protestants who are willing to marry a Catholic partner.

I also wrote my testimony, a journey to search for genuine happiness and complete cure from my autism condition. However, given my limited language ability, I cannot write the whole story in English 😦

Thank you very much 🙂
 
I am just so confused right now. I know most Christians don’t doubt to the extent that I do. I’m getting frustrated. It seems like every Christian church is attacking at least one other church, calling the members heretics or “wolves in sheep’s clothing,” and stuff like that. I have actually been trying to do the right thing lately, and trying to be more genuine. Like I try to be more loving towards others. But I don’t feel like I am making a whole lot of progress. I still fall into sin and complain and get angry.
It’s like Paul said. I do the total opposite of what I want to do, which is following Christ. I feel like I have no self control, and am bearing little or no fruit at all. I am getting ticked off at myself and God. I feel like God does not want me to be a Christian and like he’s condemning me (I know it says, “No condemnation for those who are in Christ,” but I wonder, am I really in Christ? If I wasn’t, then I would be condemned.
I wonder, can any church be trusted anymore? Are things going to just get worse in the world? How can a believer stay a believer in these days? How do you not become distracted?
Don’t worry. I don’t see myself falling away from the faith, but I am struggling for understanding.
Ah you know churches and priests can sometimes be a bit worldly and it’s not their fault, that’s one of the things that happens when you get a lot of people in one place.

While it can be considered vital to adhere to and respect the teachings of your church, there is nobody standing in between you and God and it would be a terrible sin if anybody did. Just ignore bickering as what it is - people being people.
And everyone says, Whether you are or are not a Christian is between you and God. So if you are saved you should know. If you are not saved, you should know. So I should know but I’m not so sure I do.
As for this business of being “saved” and “knowing you are saved” - I’ve had to think through this as I think we all probably have, and whether it’s of any interest or not, I might as well quickly ramble about the conclusions I’ve come to, in case they make any sense to you. To me “knowing you are saved” is not how it works at all. Nothing that is worth having is all fireworks and great love stories - a road to Damascus experience still involves, when you get right down to it, walking a bloody long way along a road that is 2000 years away from the nearest cold can of Coke.

To compare it to something else that takes work, to me serving God is much like serving a spouse. It’s all very nice having a big party and a honeymoon and butterflies in your tummy about your undying love, and people do and that’s great, but then comes the real bit, the grown-up bit - long term love which is more about working for your rewards and often for none, staying faithful through the hard times, still being there and dutiful when you don’t feel like loving anyone and are just cheesed off etc., , and nobody begins every day of their life with a rapturous smile at how much they love their sleeping wife/husband - the pleasures of a life-long marriage are enormous, but they are also hard-earned… this is how I see a relationship with God. Not hard as such, just not all romance and excitement.

I tend to ignore people who talk about this grand act of being “saved”, as if that will be your “happy ever after moment”, because to me that is a way to set yourself up for failure - just like it is for people getting married. It is the easiest thing in the world for the enemy to get a foothold through an unreasonable expectation.

In fact, to continue the marriage theme, I sometimes feel that when the… worldliness of the church and the people in it (who we are in a sense a bit married to)… gets too much, it is time to spend a little while praying or contemplating away from that, reading the scriptures, reading all of the wonderful theological writing there is in our world, and enjoying life - that is, spending a little quality time with God away from anybody else. The grief of other people’s bickering and the danger of unrealistic expectations can start to drop away a little bit.

Your mileage may vary. I’ll stop rambling now, sorry. 😛
 
It’s like Paul said. I do the total opposite of what I want to do, which is following Christ. I feel like I have no self control, and am bearing little or no fruit at all. I am getting ticked off at myself and God. I feel like God does not want me to be a Christian and like he’s condemning me (I know it says, “No condemnation for those who are in Christ,” but I wonder, am I really in Christ? If I wasn’t, then I would be condemned.
Jesusismyfriend,

You know what? If you can be righteous by yourself, you don’t need Jesus and his salvation at all.

Be happy in your weakness and sinfulness, because with your faith in Jesus, you now have Him as your Strength and your Righteous.

nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

(Galatians 2:20)

Just be patient in your prayers and let Jesus guide you through the journey towards perfection as He wants to, not the way you think

Remember, Sainthood in Catholic faith is a gradual transformation, not an immediate state!

God blesses.
 
And everyone says, Whether you are or are not a Christian is between you and God. So if you are saved you should know. If you are not saved, you should know. So I should know but I’m not so sure I do.
Not everyone takes that view.

Do you believe in Jesus as our risen Lord who died for our sins and will come again? If so then you are a Christian. It also helps considerably if you have been Baptised.

We are all imperfect, we ALL struggle to do what is right, we ALL fail in many ways. We are human, that is our nature.

Some of us have had some kind of ‘Redemption’ experience, some of us have not. We are all Christians nevertheless. It’s about belief, not about how much a person sins, and it’s certainly not about being specifically chosen.

NOBODY on Earth has any authority declaring who is and who is not saved. That is for God alone when we stand alone before Him on the day of judgement.
 
Ah you know churches and priests can sometimes be a bit worldly and it’s not their fault, that’s one of the things that happens when you get a lot of people in one place.

While it can be considered vital to adhere to and respect the teachings of your church, Just ignore bickering as what it is - people being people.

As for this business of being “saved” and “knowing you are saved” - I’ve had to think through this as I think we all probably have, and whether it’s of any interest or not,

I might as well quickly ramble about the conclusions I’ve come to, in case they make any sense to you. To me “knowing you are saved” is not how it works at all.

Nothing that is worth having is all fireworks and great love stories -
a road to Damascus experience still involves, when you get right down to it, walking a bloody long way along a road that is 2000 years away from the nearest cold can of Coke.

To compare it to something else that takes work, to me serving God is much like serving a spouse.

I tend to ignore people who talk about this grand act of being “saved”, as if that will be your “happy ever after moment”, because to me that is a way to set yourself up for failure - just like it is for people getting married. It is the easiest thing in the world for the enemy to get a foothold through an unreasonable expectation.

The grief of other people’s bickering and the danger of unrealistic expectations can start to drop away a little bit.

Your mileage may vary. I’ll stop rambling now, sorry. 😛
funny-- i have often seen people wondering how the Spiritual realm – works–
at the bible colleges i attended-- i met a few “wiches” who discovered their personal deception-
and entered into a spiritual relationship with Jesus -thru the Holy Spirit–

and they don;t have any conflict with wather they are “saved-born-again or not”

because of the spiritual reality they “know it real”

so it ssure helps to have a road to demaskis experience–

or have the ability to Pray in tongues - for personal edification–

not the 5 fold ministry tongues for the congregation–

the roman catholic experience allows you the natural ability to go to mass every day and do all the religious things to – make you feel “warm and fuzzy” so that is a plus if you are struggling–
 
I am just so confused right now. I know most Christians don’t doubt to the extent that I do. I’m getting frustrated. It seems like every Christian church is attacking at least one other church, calling the members heretics or “wolves in sheep’s clothing,” and stuff like that. I have actually been trying to do the right thing lately, and trying to be more genuine. Like I try to be more loving towards others. But I don’t feel like I am making a whole lot of progress. I still fall into sin and complain and get angry.
It’s like Paul said. I do the total opposite of what I want to do, which is following Christ. I feel like I have no self control, and am bearing little or no fruit at all. I am getting ticked off at myself and God. I feel like God does not want me to be a Christian and like he’s condemning me (I know it says, “No condemnation for those who are in Christ,” but I wonder, am I really in Christ? If I wasn’t, then I would be condemned.
I wonder, can any church be trusted anymore? Are things going to just get worse in the world? How can a believer stay a believer in these days? How do you not become distracted?
Don’t worry. I don’t see myself falling away from the faith, but I am struggling for understanding.
And everyone says, Whether you are or are not a Christian is between you and God. So if you are saved you should know. If you are not saved, you should know. So I should know but I’m not so sure I do.
Jesusismyfriend,

Do you believe in Our Lord’s word when he says Matt 16:18 “And I say to thee: That thou art Peter; and upon this rock I will build my church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.”

Which Church was Jesus Christ talking about? Was it the protestant churches? No! The Protestant church came 1500 years later. Jesus Christ was speaking about the Catholic Church. So have Faith in this Catholic Church and you will not go wrong. Amen

Oh by the way we all sin we all fall short is it through the Grace of God we are saved… This is why He left a Church that we can go to, to have our sins forgiven.

Ufam Tobie
 
I am just so confused right now. I know most Christians don’t doubt to the extent that I do. I’m getting frustrated. It seems like every Christian church is attacking at least one other church, calling the members heretics or “wolves in sheep’s clothing,” and stuff like that. I have actually been trying to do the right thing lately, and trying to be more genuine. Like I try to be more loving towards others. But I don’t feel like I am making a whole lot of progress. I still fall into sin and complain and get angry.
It’s like Paul said. I do the total opposite of what I want to do, which is following Christ. I feel like I have no self control, and am bearing little or no fruit at all. I am getting ticked off at myself and God. I feel like God does not want me to be a Christian and like he’s condemning me (I know it says, “No condemnation for those who are in Christ,” but I wonder, am I really in Christ? If I wasn’t, then I would be condemned.
I wonder, can any church be trusted anymore? Are things going to just get worse in the world? How can a believer stay a believer in these days? How do you not become distracted?
Don’t worry. I don’t see myself falling away from the faith, but I am struggling for understanding.
And everyone says, Whether you are or are not a Christian is between you and God. So if you are saved you should know. If you are not saved, you should know. So I should know but I’m not so sure I do.
Friend of Jesus,

May I ask you a few questions…

first, have you been baptized in the trinitarian formula?
 
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