Struggling with Atheism!!

[HabemusFrancis]

Hi Everyone. Let me tell you about myself. I was until two weeks ago, a faithful Catholic. I believe just about everything the Church taught. Then I discovered the writer Christopher Hitchens, through a book of his that criticized Bill and Hillary Clinton.

I read his arguments against religion, and regret to say, that I was convinced to some degree. He basically said that" something asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence", that if people in the first century AD were as knowledgeable about the world as they were now the Church would never have taken off, That in the Bible God orders a lot of cruel and ruthless things, And that God is negligent since he is all powerful and all good but only gives “miraculous cures” to a select few individuals.

Im sad to say he convinced me for a time. Im only here to see how and if these arguments are wrong. Im not quite ready to give up on the Faith just yet.

H F

 

[shom-bms]

With respect to the argument that there’s no evidence of God, remember that in a court of law, the testimony of a witness is evidence.

The Apostles left a written testimony of the miraculous events they witnessed at the time of Christ. In addition to miraculous healings, there are thousands of people who can give you a modern-day testimony of having experienced God by hearing his voice in prayer or having encountered Him in a near-death experience. The fact that some atheists don’t understand why God grants healings to some and not others doesn’t mean that the Almighty doesn’t have good reasons.

Tons of evidence exist. But some people believe the evidence and others ignore it. I suggest that most who choose to ignore it do so because they start out hoping God doesn’t exist, begin to seek out arguments against his existence, and over time get their heels so dug in on this idea that evidence no longer matters.

Why do they want God not to exist? They think to themselves, “I just want to enjoy the things of this life without restrictions from God or anyone else.”

It might be useful to read books that will help you stay grounded in tangible evidence of God. A couple of recommendations:

Diary: Divine Mercy in My Soul by St. Maria Faustina Kowalska (ISBN 1596141107).
Miracles Do Happen by Sister Briege McKenna (ISBN 0892833165)

Also, consider the testimonies of these two Catholic witnesses from the EWTN program Journey Home:

ewtn.com/vondemand/audio/resolve.asp?audiofile=jh_10112004.mp3
ewtn.com/vondemand/audio/resolve.asp?audiofile=jh_01102005.mp3

God bless.

 

[Trigonometric]

if people in the first century AD were as knowledgeable about the world as they were now the Church would never have taken off,

Yet Hitchens provides little evidence for this, after all, the Church is still around today. Since he has claimed this without evidence, by his own logic, we can dismiss it without evidence.

That in the Bible God orders a lot of cruel and ruthless things, And that God is negligent since he is all powerful and all good but only gives “miraculous cures” to a select few individuals.

Here’s part of his own problem. As a mere human, he doesn’t have the wisdom necessary to judge God. What may appear cruel to Hitchens isn’t necessarily cruel in reality.

However, this does show one basic fact: he believes others should be treated with kindness and respect. Everyone knows that human beings have some sort of inherent dignity and worth, you are essentially born knowing it. Now, if we’re made in the image of God, and have some inherent dignity because of this, then it would make sense for us to place a value on human comfort and life.
However, if we’re just random products of natural processes, then we wouldn’t have such value. There would be no basis for morals, and no reason not to be utterly selfish. After all, you’d just be hurting one glob of organic material to benefit another.

But we do know that we have worth, and we do know that there are legitimate moral and ethical standards. Not even most athesits are willing to deny that. Since these would only exist if there is a God, and we know that these exist, we can conclude that God must exist.

Finally, I should add that Hitchens has a style of writing laced with emotional arguments. Before making any major decision, you should ask yourself whether he’s appealing to your reason or to your emotion (i.e, “the Bible is cruel” is mostly an emotional appeal. It’s meant to make you upset more than to rationally persuade you.)

 

[snarflemike]

Hi Everyone. Let me tell you about myself. I was until two weeks ago, a faithful Catholic. I believe just about everything the Church taught. Then I discovered the writer Christopher Hitchens, through a book of his that criticized Bill and Hillary Clinton.

I read his arguments against religion, and regret to say, that I was convinced to some degree. He basically said that" something asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence", that if people in the first century AD were as knowledgeable about the world as they were now the Church would never have taken off, That in the Bible God orders a lot of cruel and ruthless things, And that God is negligent since he is all powerful and all good but only gives “miraculous cures” to a select few individuals.

Im sad to say he convinced me for a time. Im only here to see how and if these arguments are wrong. Im not quite ready to give up on the Faith just yet.

Are you familiar with the voluminous evidence for the existence of God? With the many metaphysical arguments that demonstrate the existence of God? With the 3000 year old tradition of thought about this, the most important matter that faces any human being?

Read / listen to Peter Kreeft, and William Lane Craig, John Lennox, and Edward Feser (his book on the New Atheism, “The Last Superstition,” calls atheism “deeply irrational and immoral, indeed the very negation of reason and morality,” and he was an atheist for a time). Read about Anthony Flew. Listen to the atheist-related podcasts at www.crossexamined.org.

Are you aware that the Catholic Church teaches that you can know the existence of God through natural reason alone? Are you familiar with Pascal’s Wager?

If you become an atheist, can you account for anything? Can you account for the existence of the universe? For the existence of life? For the human condition and human morality? A Catholic can account for all of these things - if you become an atheist you will need to be able to account for them as well. And no atheist can.

Read, listen, learn, and your faith will not only be restored, but will be vastly stronger.

 

[buffalo]

Don’t let Hitchens sidetrack you

Debate - William Lane Craig vs Christopher Hitchens - Does God Exist?

Same Evidence, Different Conclusions: Is “Objective Belief” an Oxymoron?

 

[R_C]

Hi Everyone. Let me tell you about myself. I was until two weeks ago, a faithful Catholic. I believe just about everything the Church taught. Then I discovered the writer Christopher Hitchens …] he convinced me for a time. …] Im not quite ready to give up on the Faith just yet.

It took so little to make you stop following Christ? A book worth much, much less than 30 pieces of silver? I do not know if you could even speak of “faith” when naming that which you are almost ready to give up.

If I were you (and believe me, I have been in worse situations) I would humble myself and ask spiritual direction from a priest. This may as well be the most significant challenge of your existence, and affect the lives of many, including your nearest and dearest.

And I would fast, too.

 

[Steinway]

Hi Everyone. Let me tell you about myself. I was until two weeks ago, a faithful Catholic. I believe just about everything the Church taught. Then I discovered the writer Christopher Hitchens, through a book of his that criticized Bill and Hillary Clinton.

I read his arguments against religion, and regret to say, that I was convinced to some degree. He basically said that" something asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence", that if people in the first century AD were as knowledgeable about the world as they were now the Church would never have taken off, That in the Bible God orders a lot of cruel and ruthless things, And that God is negligent since he is all powerful and all good but only gives “miraculous cures” to a select few individuals.

Im sad to say he convinced me for a time. Im only here to see how and if these arguments are wrong. Im not quite ready to give up on the Faith just yet.

H F

“Atheists espouse exclusive believe in science. Notwithstanding science is an investigation of the natural world, they seem to refrain from applying such principals for investigating the existence of God. It’s certainly not for lack of evidence, in as much as an unwillingness to proceed in the direction that science leads them. Unbelievers abandon the pursuit of genuine truth, in place of a manic quest of finding unattainable naturalist explanations. Atheists make audacious claims that there is no evidence to support a Supreme Being, as though these were universally accepted prognoses, but stop short of supporting their conclusions with any form of rational evidence”.

ArguingWithAtheists.com/Pages/Intelligent_Design.htm

 

[Linusthe2nd]

Hi Everyone. Let me tell you about myself. I was until two weeks ago, a faithful Catholic. I believe just about everything the Church taught. Then I discovered the writer Christopher Hitchens, through a book of his that criticized Bill and Hillary Clinton.

I read his arguments against religion, and regret to say, that I was convinced to some degree. He basically said that" something asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence", that if people in the first century AD were as knowledgeable about the world as they were now the Church would never have taken off, That in the Bible God orders a lot of cruel and ruthless things, And that God is negligent since he is all powerful and all good but only gives “miraculous cures” to a select few individuals.

Im sad to say he convinced me for a time. Im only here to see how and if these arguments are wrong. Im not quite ready to give up on the Faith just yet.

H F

If Hitchens and the other Atheists were right why don’t we all just throw up our hands and bow down. Don’t you realize that there are thousands, tens of thousands of Catholic and Christian scientists around the world who aren’t the least bit impressed by these Sophists ( and that is all they are).

Don’t you realize that your faith is based on God’s own Revelation to man? It is not Hitchens who reveals the truth, it is God. I think you need to do some serious reading of the Catechism of the Catholic Church. vatican.va/archive/ENG0015/_INDEX.HTM

Hitchens is a fool and so are the others. Your one concern is to save your soul. You can only do that by following God’s plan of salvation. You don’t have to prove the validity of your faith to anyone, it is its own proof. Linus2nd

 

[Truly_Blessed_1]

This is an argument made by atheists that I don’t understand (anymore,) though at one point it did have me convinced of their worldview.

How much tangible evidence, visible to the naked human eye do we have for the existence of God, and the supernatural? Take a look at any saint whose body remains perfectly preserved after decades, and sometimes centuries after their deaths. What about people with Stigmata wounds that appear out of nowhere? Take into account ANY Marian Apparition, and the documented miracles that are associated with them. What about the documented medical miracles that are associated with the holy water at Lourdes?

One could argue philosophical **** all day long about the existence or nonexistence of the supernatural, OR you could take a look at what is right in front of you. There is too much of it for atheists to “rationalize” away like they do. I have heard it said that religion cannot prove God’s existence, and atheism cannot disprove it. To me this is only partially true because we can prove his existence at this point, and they still cannot disprove it.

 

[Bradski]

The Apostles left a written testimony of the miraculous events they witnessed at the time of Christ.

It might have been better if you’d said: ‘Despite the gospels having been written anonymously…’ and gone on from there. If you say something to convince Habemus to remain a Catholic and give him information that is not quite correct, then he may end up rejecting a lot of what you say.

Ditto with miracles and near death experiences. He might ask you why Hindus or Jainists never get to meet God when they have a near death experience.

Atheists make audacious claims that there is no evidence to support a Supreme Being…but stop short of supporting their conclusions with any form of rational evidence.

What if Habemus asks you how someone is meant to supply evidence that there is no evidence?

Hitchens is a fool and so are the others.

Something of a sweeping statement that might not be too hard to refute.

What about people with Stigmata wounds that appear out of nowhere?

And so easy to prove that they’re genuine! I hope Habemos doesn’t have a sceptical outlook.

 

[rom422]

if people in the first century AD were as knowledgeable about the world as they were now the Church would never have taken off

I truncated the quote to just the part I want to comment on. Hitchens’ remark insinuates (without proof) that the people in the first century AD were rationally incompetent, ignorant, gullible, etc. I disagree with that. Of course, I admit that the people in the first century AD were not as advanced technologically as we are, but that does not mean that they did not have common sense, nor that their judgment was faulty, nor that they believe anything without sufficient evidence, etc.

Just to give two examples from Holy Scripture:

1. In the gospel of St. John we read Christ saying: “I am the living bread, which came down from heaven. If any man eat of this bread, he shall live forever: and the bread which I will give, is my flesh for the life of the world” (John 6:51-52). Did the Jews believe Him right away? No. In fact , upon hearing this many of His disciples were scandalized. They therefore left Him and “walked no more with him” (John 6:67). So, they were not too gullible, were they?
2. In the gospel of St. Luke, Ch. 24, we read that on Easter morning some of the women went back to the burial tomb of Christ, carrying the spices that they had prepared the night before. But the women did not see the dead body of Christ. Two angels then appeared to them and said that Christ had risen. Then they remembered what Christ said, that on the third day He was going to rise again. The women (one of whom was Mary Magdalen) therefore ran to the apostles to tell them the good news that Christ had risen from the dead. Did the apostles believe the news? Nope. They thought it was an “idle tale” (Luke 24:11). Not only that, Peter rose up and ran to the sepulcher to see whether the body was really missing. See, these people wanted evidence just as much as we moderns do, didn’t they?

There are many more examples that can be cited, but the two above are enough. Mr. Hitchens underestimated the intelligence of first century Christians, and I hope you don’t fall for that.

 

[polytropos]

You should look up and read some of the recent works that argue against “scientism.”

There are a lot of forces that advocate against belief in God. They have varying effects on different people. For a while you might tune them out, but eventually you will encounter them. These are one side of an argument. These books, like all philosophy, are not free of rhetoric. The point of these books is to convince you, and if you treat them as the only source and don’t weight them against opposing arguments, they will do just that.

I am of course an atheist and have been for a long time. But I don’t think belief in God is absurd. I don’t know - I am working on it.

 

[R_C]

"if people in the first century AD were as knowledgeable about the world as they were now…

There is some degree of truth in this affirmation, though most of the world believes in God, the greatest religion is Christianity, only 1% of the world population is atheist/agnostic, and in the US (a 1st world, top research country) the average retention rate of atheism is about 33%, the lowest amidst *all *religious groups.

Jesus said, "I praise you, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because you have hidden these things from the wise and learned, and revealed them to little children.

For the word of the cross, to them indeed that perish, is foolishness; but to them that are saved, that is, to us, it is the power of God. For it is written: “I will destroy the wisdom of the wise; the intelligence of the intelligent I will frustrate.”

Where is the wise person? Where is the teacher of the law? Where is the philosopher of this age? Has not God made foolish the wisdom of the world? For since in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom did not know him, God was pleased through the foolishness of what was preached to save those who believe.

Jews demand signs and the Gentiles look for wisdom,but we preach Christ crucified: a stumbling block to Jews and foolishness to Gentiles. But to those called by God to salvation, both Jews and Gentiles, Christ is the power of God and the wisdom of God.

For the foolishness of God is wiser than human wisdom, and the weakness of God is stronger than human strength.

God chose the foolish things of the world to shame the wise; God chose the weak things of the world to shame the strong. God chose the lowly things of this world and the despised things–and the things that are not–to nullify the things that are, so that no one may boast before him.

Only fools say in their hearts, “There is no God.” …] In his pride the wicked man does not seek him; in all his thoughts there is no room for God. …] There were they in great fear; for God is in the generation of the righteous.

Blessed are the pure in heart, for they will see God. …] Blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed.

You will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of the Mighty One and coming on the clouds of heaven. …] At that time they will see the Son of Man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.

 

[snarflemike]

You should look up and read some of the recent works that argue against “scientism.”

As it happens, I just discovered the existence of “The Devil’s Delusion: Atheism and its Scientific Pretensions” by David Berlinski. He’s an interesting guy, and a “secular Jew”.

I am of course an atheist and have been for a long time. But I don’t think belief in God is absurd. I don’t know - I am working on it.

A fair and honest attitude.

 

[HabemusFrancis]

This is all very helpful. I have a few questions though. It is clear that cavemen existed. Does the Church teach that any of them ( including neanderthals who were not quite human) does the Church teach that it is possible any cavemen are in heaven with Jesus now?

I also wonder, that since every human being is created in image and likeness of god, and god deliberatley plans every being, why do severe disabilities exist in children? I know they are all unique and lovely individuals and often bring out the best in people who help them and are around them. But I do wonder why God would design someone who never would have any hope of living independly or learning, or any of the other nice things most people take for granted…

The Fatima appartion and subsequent activity in the sky seems unexplainable. Some of those saints are uncannily well preseved ( Though it may be that some were sealed in oxygenelss tombs)

I have thought about it. Faith is Faith. There is little proof that is needed. I will just have to take my thoughts in stride in pray to god and persevere. I am currently reading a JP2 biography, so that might help. Though Hitchens was an atheist, you will find at least one redeeming quality about him: He was pro life!

 

[mab23]

**

Hi Everyone. Let me tell you about myself. I was until two weeks ago, a faithful Catholic. I believe just about everything the Church taught. Then I discovered the writer Christopher Hitchens, through a book of his that criticized Bill and Hillary Clinton.

I read his arguments against religion, and regret to say, that I was convinced to some degree. He basically said that" something asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence", that if people in the first century AD were as knowledgeable about the world as they were now the Church would never have taken off, That in the Bible God orders a lot of cruel and ruthless things, And that God is negligent since he is all powerful and all good but only gives “miraculous cures” to a select few individuals.

Im sad to say he convinced me for a time. Im only here to see how and if these arguments are wrong. Im not quite ready to give up on the Faith just yet.

H F

Yea listen to some debates

you can get some books like

Answering Atheism

http://cdn.cloudfiles.mosso.com/c114612/images/2008/answeringnewatheism.jpg

the Godless delusion
http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/515Y1RANUoL.BO2,204,203,200_PIsitb-sticker-arrow-click,TopRight,35,-76_SX240_SY320_CR,0,0,240,320_SH20_OU01.jpg

Lighthouse Catholic Media has a Great CD on this subject

(Please Note: This uploaded content is no longer available.)

lighthousecatholicmedia.org/store/title/answering-atheism

Also listen to your local Catholic Answers radio station, they talk about Atheism all the time

Christopher hitchens doesn’t present anything new , and a lot of what he says about religion is false misconceptions especially when it comes to Catholicism

he is entertaining compared to other atheist debaters, but lose the faith for I have been down that path and it lead no where good!
**

 

[snarflemike]

This is all very helpful. I have a few questions though. It is clear that cavemen existed. Does the Church teach that any of them ( including neanderthals who were not quite human) does the Church teach that it is possible any cavemen are in heaven with Jesus now?

Any creature with a human soul has a potential to go to heaven. No idea whether that applies to hominids other than homo sapiens.

I also wonder, that since every human being is created in image and likeness of god, and god deliberatley plans every being, why do severe disabilities exist in children? I know they are all unique and lovely individuals and often bring out the best in people who help them and are around them. But I do wonder why God would design someone who never would have any hope of living independly or learning, or any of the other nice things most people take for granted…

You’re asking about the Problem of Evil (which covers both natural and human evils). You need to ask, what is God’s intention and purpose for us on this earth. It is clearly not to have a good time or an easy life. One interesting mental exercise is to try and imagine what the world would be like if there was NO evil, natural or human. Try it sometime.

The Fatima appartion and subsequent activity in the sky seems unexplainable. Some of those saints are uncannily well preseved ( Though it may be that some were sealed in oxygenelss tombs)

Or not.

I have thought about it. Faith is Faith. There is little proof that is needed. I will just have to take my thoughts in stride in pray to god and persevere. I am currently reading a JP2 biography, so that might help. Though Hitchens was an atheist, you will find at least one redeeming quality about him: He was pro life!

Be careful here. Faith does not mean believing without having a reason to believe. Look at all the things Jesus did to give people reasons to believe. John says that is why he wrote his gospel. The Church teaches we can know of the existence of God through natural reason alone - that is, without faith. Faith is NOT a blind leap. It is an informed leap.

 

[rom422]

Some of those saints are uncannily well preseved ( Though it may be that some were sealed in oxygenelss tombs)

The bodies of the “incorruptibles” are kept and protected by the Church, but I don’t think they had preservatives. They are not “mummies.” In fact, the Church did not know that the bodies did not decay until they were exhumed several years after they were buried.

 

[PetrusRomanus]

This is all very helpful. I have a few questions though. It is clear that cavemen existed. Does the Church teach that any of them ( including neanderthals who were not quite human) does the Church teach that it is possible any cavemen are in heaven with Jesus now?

In my opinion if cavemen were indeed the first humans, they were judged by how well they followed their consciences according to Natural Law.

It would seem those would be the types of souls Jesus releases from Abraham’s Bosom when he descended into Hell before resurrecting on Easter Sunday.

I also wonder, that since every human being is created in image and likeness of god, and god deliberatley plans every being, why do severe disabilities exist in children?

God doesn’t design people with disabilities. People with disabilities are born that way due to the world being in an imperfect state thanks to Adam and Eve, who by their sin introduced suffering and death into this world. God simply allows the world to be imperfect, he didn’t will for it to be that way.

The Fatima appartion and subsequent activity in the sky seems unexplainable. Some of those saints are uncannily well preseved ( Though it may be that some were sealed in oxygenelss tombs)

Try sealing a regular person in an oxygenesis tomb. I doubt we’d see the same outcome. Also, no one is obligated to believe in Fatima since it neither adds to the Faith nor does it subtract anything from it.

I have thought about it. Faith is Faith. There is little proof that is needed. I will just have to take my thoughts in stride in pray to god and persevere. I am currently reading a JP2 biography, so that might help. Though Hitchens was an atheist, you will find at least one redeeming quality about him: He was pro life!

Was Chris indeed pro-life? Did he believe in abortion in cases of incest and rape? If he did, he wasn’t pro-life. You either are or aren’t, no halfway stuff.

I’d suggest that you study and get to know more about your faith right now. It’s good that you at least care enough to come here and ask questions. The more you will now, the more you will see how silly Christopher Hitchens and his arguments really are. I was in your shoes once and all of his arguments are based on misinformation and half-truths (whether deliberately or ignorantly,I do not know). And perhaps check out some of William Lane Craig’s debates as well.

 

[R_C]

Does the Church teach that any of them ( including neanderthals who were not quite human) does the Church teach that it is possible any cavemen are in heaven with Jesus now?

If they were human, yes indeed. Mind you, evolution is a mess, one that the Church has never quite condemned as fully erroneous but that science has never upheld as fully correct. We do have concepts of a matrilineal most recent common ancestor, Mitochondrial Eve (the most recent woman from whom all living humans today descend), and of a patrilineal most recent common ancestor, Y-chromosomal Adam (from whom all currently living people are descended patrilineally), who could have lived around the same time. Some researchers (well, maybe most) do not hold to a model of “first couple” (as in Scripture) but (obviously with no evidence) prefer a model which affirms that “they were not the only living human male and female of their time, bur rather their male and female contemporaries failed to produce a direct unbroken line to any living human in the present day”.

I also wonder, that since every human being is created in image and likeness of god, and god deliberatley plans every being, why do severe disabilities exist in children?

God doesn’t “design” them that way or even will them to be that way. God does not bring forth evil or illness. God does not cause death. But the mystery of suffering is ever-present. Who are we to challenge the Creator because of this? God personally creates everyone’s soul, but not the body…the body (which is flesh that accounts for nothing in eternal life) is produced by the majestic work of the organism, bound by laws that the Creator has fixed. Sometimes imperfections occur in the process. It is a great mystery. All we can do is know with certainty that God will certainly open eternal life to those souls.

The Fatima appartion and subsequent activity in the sky seems unexplainable. Some of those saints are uncannily well preseved ( Though it may be that some were sealed in oxygenelss tombs)

Many private revelations and miracles are unexplainable. Fatima’s Miracle of the Sun was very visible. Other unexplainable signs exist, such as consecrated hosts that remain incorrupt for centuries, the Holy Shroud, the Mantle of Guadalupe…but let us consider the bodies of saints.

Consider Saint Francis Xavier. Died in China on December 2, 1552, he was buried in a wooden coffin and two layers of quicklime were added in order to accelerate the process of corruption, which would facilitate the transference of his bones. When later the coffin was unearthed, after the lime had been removed, they found the body totally incorrupt. After replacing the lime, the coffin was sailed and upon arrival, it was opened and the body was still found incorrupt. The body has resisted extensive decay through 5 centuries, though it is not perfectly incorrupt.

Another example is Blessed Margaret of Castello, died on April 13, 1320. In 1558, her remains were transferred…her *coffin *was rotten, her *clothes *were rotten, but her body was preserved after 2 centuries, and still is today.

And by the way - back to your second question - Blessed Margaret had severe handicap, born blind, lame, deformed, hunchbacked and with dwarfism. Given no name by her parents, a priest baptized her Margaret, which meant Pearl. From age 6 to 16 she was hidden in a cell, never being allowed to come out, fed through a window, and administered the Sacraments through the family chaplain. At 16, she was abandoned on a street. Margaret had to beg her food and eventually sought shelter with some Dominican nuns, becoming a member of the Dominican Third Order. She spent her days in hobbling about the streets to take care of the sick and to visit prisoners. Miracles of body and soul were attributed increasingly to the blind woman’s prayers. She died on April 13, 1320 at the age of 33. When she died, the townspeople thronged to her funeral and demanded that “the saint" be buried in a tomb inside the church. The priest protested, but when a crippled girl was miraculously cured at the funeral, he had to agree. Thus a nameless, blind, crippled girl abandoned by her parents became one of the greatest friends of Christ, saved many souls, and was blessed with the signal grace of an incorrupt body. I dare to say that her last smile, after 700 years, still looks beautiful.