Struggling with Atheism!!

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Hi Everyone. Let me tell you about myself. I was until two weeks ago, a faithful Catholic. I believe just about everything the Church taught. Then I discovered the writer Christopher Hitchens, through a book of his that criticized Bill and Hillary Clinton.

I read his arguments against religion, and regret to say, that I was convinced to some degree. He basically said that" something asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence", that if people in the first century AD were as knowledgeable about the world as they were now the Church would never have taken off, That in the Bible God orders a lot of cruel and ruthless things, And that God is negligent since he is all powerful and all good but only gives “miraculous cures” to a select few individuals.

Im sad to say he convinced me for a time. Im only here to see how and if these arguments are wrong. Im not quite ready to give up on the Faith just yet.

H F
Hello Habneus,
That's a pretty big jump to go from Catholic to athiest or in your case agnosticism. With regards to the problem of evil argument, this argument falls apart if we as souls existed prior to coming to earth and if we chose to come to earth of our own free will.
 
Listen, I knew I would get some heat for posting this, yet I thought it was necessary.

I did not want to tell my doubts to my parents or Catholic friends since they would get sad and confused as to why I had such doubts.

This more is jsut a reflection of what I have been reading as opposed to any belief change. I read some of Hitchesn’ Atheism book, and thought it was very witty and charming, and with a few points that made sense to me at time.

I realize though it must be ultimately sad to not believe in any higher power. Im more just processing what it is Ive read, if that makes any sense?
 
“that if people in the first century AD were as knowledgeable about the world as they were now the Church would never have taken off…”
This is one of the greatest stupidities of modern thought: that people back then were really really dumb and people today are really really smart. What a load of ****. There are labels we have for people who discriminate against people of other races, it’s called racism; for sexes, it’s called sexism; what about for time periods? Maybe “temporalism?”

For thousands of years we have had great thinkers and philosopher, even as early as the ancient Greeks. They did not wander around drooling with their thumbs up their you-know-whats as many people today will assume. These people were scientists, philosophers, and thinkers. Sure, they didn’t have as full of an understanding of science as they do today but that doesn’t mean that they were incapable of thinking critically. The truth is Christopher Hitchens was NOT a scientist OR a philosopher. He was a political commentator and a journalist. I think you have only listened to one side of the story and you should read up on others including Peter Kreeft or William Lane Craig. Listen to some Catholic apologists and get both sides of the story before jumping ship.
 
Hi Everyone. Let me tell you about myself. I was until two weeks ago, a faithful Catholic. I believe just about everything the Church taught. Then I discovered the writer Christopher Hitchens, through a book of his that criticized Bill and Hillary Clinton.

I read his arguments against religion, and regret to say, that I was convinced to some degree. He basically said that" something asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence", that if people in the first century AD were as knowledgeable about the world as they were now the Church would never have taken off, That in the Bible God orders a lot of cruel and ruthless things, And that God is negligent since he is all powerful and all good but only gives “miraculous cures” to a select few individuals.

Im sad to say he convinced me for a time. Im only here to see how and if these arguments are wrong. Im not quite ready to give up on the Faith just yet.

H F
I have thought about atheism a lot, far more and with a much more informed mind than most atheists will ever do, and I have decided that I can impossibly become an atheist.

The arguments for the existence of God from the fine-tuning of the laws of nature:

home.earthlink.net/~almoritz/cosmological-arguments-god.htm
(my link)

and from human reason:

Why Naturalists Should Mind about Physicalism, and Vice Versa

(Read the sections on logical relation of ground-consequent as opposed to the relation cause-effect, and the contradiction between determinism and rationality.)

The Cardinal Difficulty of Naturalism
(C.S. Lewis)

“Naturalism is true”: A self-contradictory statement
(my link)

are just too strong for me. (The last link also shows that naturalism, which is pretty much an inevitable consequence of atheism for me, is an intellectually incoherent position and cannot be rationally embraced.)

I would also urgently suggest reading the book “Modern Physics and Ancient Faith” by Stephen Barr, a Catholic physicist, which also deals with the fine-tuning argument and human reason, the latter from the viewpoint of absolute truths (e.g. mathematical ones) and the question if the human mind is (like) a computer:

amazon.com/Modern-Physics-Ancient-Faith-Stephen/dp/0268021988

I say all this while I am a die-hard evolutionist (except when it comes to the human rational soul of course) and even have written a review of the research on the origin of life by natural causes for Talkorigins.org, a leading evolution website:

talkorigins.org/faqs/abioprob/originoflife.html
 
The truth is Christopher Hitchens was NOT a scientist OR a philosopher.
To the point.

Not a scientist: While atheists are quick to embrace evolution (rightfully so) they mostly ignore or even deny the apparent extreme fine-tuning of the laws of nature that even leading atheistic cosmologists point out. Without such extreme fine-tuning evolution could not exist in the first place.

Not a philosopher: most atheists are philosophically ignorant indeed, to an alarming degree. I am decidedly unimpressed. In fact, the more I deal with atheism and discuss with atheists, the more intellectual disdain I develop.
 
This is one of the greatest stupidities of modern thought: that people back then were really really dumb and people today are really really smart. What a load of ****. There are labels we have for people who discriminate against people of other races, it’s called racism; for sexes, it’s called sexism; what about for time periods? Maybe “temporalism?”
CS Lewis talks about this fallacy. He calls it Chronological Snobbery.
For thousands of years we have had great thinkers and philosopher, even as early as the ancient Greeks. They did not wander around drooling with their thumbs up their you-know-whats as many people today will assume. These people were scientists, philosophers, and thinkers. Sure, they didn’t have as full of an understanding of science as they do today but that doesn’t mean that they were incapable of thinking critically. The truth is Christopher Hitchens was NOT a scientist OR a philosopher. He was a political commentator and a journalist. I think you have only listened to one side of the story and you should read up on others including Peter Kreeft or William Lane Craig. Listen to some Catholic apologists and get both sides of the story before jumping ship.
The typical modern atheist does not even understand or face the implications of his beliefs (his faith 🙂 ). Atheism is tragic, there is nothing but death and decay and meaninglessness at the end. But most atheists today express no comprehension of the tragicness of this view. At least the atheists of the past understood the implications of their beliefs. They were thoughtful atheists. Today we seem to just have angry atheists (why?) and cocky atheists (why again?).

For the OP, two other excellent reads for you would be Augustine’s Confessions and City of God.
 
This is all very helpful. I have a few questions though. It is clear that cavemen existed. Does the Church teach that any of them ( including neanderthals who were not quite human) does the Church teach that it is possible any cavemen are in heaven with Jesus now?

I also wonder, that since every human being is created in image and likeness of god, and god deliberatley plans every being, why do severe disabilities exist in children? I know they are all unique and lovely individuals and often bring out the best in people who help them and are around them. But I do wonder why God would design someone who never would have any hope of living independly or learning, or any of the other nice things most people take for granted…

The Fatima appartion and subsequent activity in the sky seems unexplainable. Some of those saints are uncannily well preseved ( Though it may be that some were sealed in oxygenelss tombs)

I have thought about it. Faith is Faith. There is little proof that is needed. I will just have to take my thoughts in stride in pray to god and persevere. I am currently reading a JP2 biography, so that might help. Though Hitchens was an atheist, you will find at least one redeeming quality about him: He was pro life!
Do you consider Adam and Eve cavemen? Don’t forget they possessed preternatural gifts.
 
Hi Everyone. Let me tell you about myself. I was until two weeks ago, a faithful Catholic. I believe just about everything the Church taught. Then I discovered the writer Christopher Hitchens, through a book of his that criticized Bill and Hillary Clinton.

I read his arguments against religion, and regret to say, that I was convinced to some degree. He basically said that" something asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence", that if people in the first century AD were as knowledgeable about the world as they were now the Church would never have taken off, That in the Bible God orders a lot of cruel and ruthless things, And that God is negligent since he is all powerful and all good but only gives “miraculous cures” to a select few individuals.

Im sad to say he convinced me for a time. Im only here to see how and if these arguments are wrong. Im not quite ready to give up on the Faith just yet.

H F
Wow, is that the best he can do? And I thought he was a clever guy.

Seriously, there are far better arguments against Christianity or religion than those.

Very simply:
“something asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence”
The presumption is that Christianity is asserted without evidence and, of course, the presumption is wrong. But let us grant it for the moment. Is the claim even true? I don’t think so. We assert lots of things without evidence that are true and taken to be true by others. For example, if you say to a friend, “I’m hungry”, he doesn’t have to listen to your bowels to believe you or not. Or if your wife says, “I love you”, you don’t need to put her on a polygraph. Furthermore, even things asserted without evidence cannot be dismissed without evidence, since there should be a presumption of innocence on claims. So, for example, if I claimed to have a mystical experience and genuinely believed it, unless you had good evidence to believe others (I was mistaken because of X, Y and Z), there is no reason to prima facie dismiss my claim.
if people in the first century AD were as knowledgeable about the world as they were now the Church would never have taken off
All the people in the first century AD needed was to know the difference between a dead body and a living body. That’s it. I’m pretty sure they could figure out that Christ was pretty dead on the cross and just as dead when he was buried and, hey, when he appeared all those times, not so dead.

As for miracles, well, I’ve yet to see a scientist explain how five loaves and two fish multiply to feed five thousand, how a man walks on water, how the dead as raised, or how water turns instantly to wine. I don’t think we’re much the wiser today.
That in the Bible God orders a lot of cruel and ruthless things
If he means, for instance, the killing of Canaanites, a couple of points: (i) that text needs to be understood in context, that is, the primitive nature of the times, what was occurring, how warfare was fought, what the text is actually approving of, etc.; and (ii) God, as the sovereign of life, has the authority and moral right to take life away, in fact, he does it every second when someone dies, as Job declares: “Naked I came from my mother’s womb, and naked shall I return; the LORD gave, and the LORD has taken away; blessed be the name of the LORD.” (Job 1:21, RSV)
And that God is negligent since he is all powerful and all good but only gives “miraculous cures” to a select few individuals.
Gee, he’s even a biblical ignoramus! I don’t think Christopher Hitchens actually understands the Incarnation and the purpose of Christ coming to us. He didn’t come as a miracle healer just to heal everyone, but rather for a special purpose: to redeem us and build the Church. Be that as it may, God does continue to heal people today through miraculous cures. Lastly, there’s life (earthly life) and then, there’s life (heavenly, eternal life). God is gifting us the latter through His love for us. I wish Mr Hitchens would have understood that and been a bit more open. He could have died a happier (i.e. more blessed) man.

God bless you.
 
To the point.

Not a scientist: While atheists are quick to embrace evolution (rightfully so) they mostly ignore or even deny the apparent extreme fine-tuning of the laws of nature that even leading atheistic cosmologists point out. Without such extreme fine-tuning evolution could not exist in the first place.

Not a philosopher: most atheists are philosophically ignorant indeed, to an alarming degree. I am decidedly unimpressed. In fact, the more I deal with atheism and discuss with atheists, the more intellectual disdain I develop.
The dirty little secret is that science supports the theistic view (science can’t disprove God, and does strongly suggest an intelligence behind the creation and design of the universe). The other dirty little secret is that there are more philosophical arguments for the existence of God than against. Today’s atheists just assume they have science and truth on their side, and most have no clue as to where the weight of the evidence really lies.
 
What if he is wrong?
What if the atheist is wrong? I’ve thought about that. I’ll say, “God, if you wanted something from me then why didn’t you speak up?”

One nice thing about being a theist is that if you’re wrong you’ll never know it.
 
What if the atheist is wrong? I’ve thought about that. I’ll say, “God, if you wanted something from me then why didn’t you speak up?”
Be careful he doesn’t reply “I did, but you closed your ears to me.” 😉
One nice thing about being a theist is that if you’re wrong you’ll never know it.
Best of both worlds. 😃
 
What if the atheist is wrong? I’ve thought about that. I’ll say, “God, if you wanted something from me then why didn’t you speak up?”

One nice thing about being a theist is that if you’re wrong you’ll never know it.
True, that’s like Pascal’s Wager.

Bet on reason - does God exist? Either He does and you know; He does and you don’t know; He doesn’t and you know; or He doesn’t and you don’t know. Can anyone be sure either way through reason? No.

Okay, well apart from truth, what else do we desire in life? Happiness. Okay, factor in happiness.
  • God exists and you know: great! You gain eternal happiness.
  • God exists and you don’t know: bad! You don’t gain eternal happiness.
  • God doesn’t exist and you know: well, what’s the big deal then? any extra happiness?
  • God doesn’t exist and you don’t know: your life as a believer can be just as happy as your life as an unbeliever.
In all these equations, then, Pascal says go for the first: the bet is just as reasonable as the contrary, plus your happiness bet is the best to pay off.
 
Be careful he doesn’t reply “I did, but you closed your ears to me.” 😉
He couldn’t say that because it wouldn’t be true.

The only thing that God could say that would make any sense is, “Because you were never one of My elect.” 😦
 
True, that’s like Pascal’s Wager.

Bet on reason - does God exist? Either He does and you know; He does and you don’t know; He doesn’t and you know; or He doesn’t and you don’t know. Can anyone be sure either way through reason? No.

Okay, well apart from truth, what else do we desire in life? Happiness. Okay, factor in happiness.
  • God exists and you know: great! You gain eternal happiness.
  • God exists and you don’t know: bad! You don’t gain eternal happiness.
  • God doesn’t exist and you know: well, what’s the big deal then? any extra happiness?
  • God doesn’t exist and you don’t know: your life as a believer can be just as happy as your life as an unbeliever.
In all these equations, then, Pascal says go for the first: the bet is just as reasonable as the contrary, plus your happiness bet is the best to pay off.
The trouble is that “the feelin’s gone and I just can’t get it back.”
 
He couldn’t say that because it wouldn’t be true.

The only thing that God could say that would make any sense is, “Because you were never one of My elect.” 😦
God’s grace is so profound that even at the moment of death, He may yet touch a human heart. Who knows what happens to a person at death or shortly after.

God wills all to be saved (1 Tim 2:4).
 
** The Magician’s Twin - CS Lewis **

A powerful must see video:

**The Magician’s Twin: C.S. Lewis and the Case against Scientism **

The Similarity Between Science and Magic
  1. Science as religion
  2. Science as credulity
  3. Science as power
Evolution is an alternative religion
 
He couldn’t say that because it wouldn’t be true.

The only thing that God could say that would make any sense is, “Because you were never one of My elect.” 😦
The Catholic Church is the mystical body of Christ here on earth. The Pope is the representative of Christ on this earth. Have they not told you “Im here, come home”?

God will say, I did tell you. I sent my living body on earth to guide you.

Did you listen?
 
The dirty little secret is that science supports the theistic view (science can’t disprove God, and does strongly suggest an intelligence behind the creation and design of the universe). The other dirty little secret is that there are more philosophical arguments for the existence of God than against. Today’s atheists just assume they have science and truth on their side, and most have no clue as to where the weight of the evidence really lies.
Indeed.
 
Jacob’s Ladder
Code:
           **[Ten Steps to Truth](http://www.ignatius.com/Products/JACL-P/jacobs-ladder.aspx)**
Kreeft’s characters begin at the beginning, at the bottom of the ladder, which is the passion for truth. When it comes to the most important questions a person can ask, no mere interest in philosophical dabbling will do. The passion for truth does not stop there, however, but carries the reader from one page to the next in this thought-provoking adventure of the mind.
Among the topics, or “steps”, that Kreeft’s characters delve into include:
  • Do you have the passion to know?
  • Does truth exist?
  • What is the meaning of life?
  • What is love, and why is it so important for our lives?
  • If there is a God, what proof is there for his existence?
  • Has God revealed himself to us in a personal way?

    And many other important questions and topics to help climb the ladder to the truth about life.
 
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