Struggling with being a female catholic

[angell1]

guys, i don’t really know what to do. i feel really lost. i am a female attending university, don’t like dresses or skirts, enjoy sports, prefer subjects like math and science, rather have short hair, don’t like make-up or jewelry or any of those things. i have no desire for marriage or religious life. but according to catholic teaching as well as vonservative opinion or even the bible, i fall short of being a woman by far. what does it really mean to be a cahotlic woman? i really have no idea. seems like all the advancements made for women have mainly done by the secular world. not that i agree with all the choices. but for example, back in the middle ages, when most people were catholic, there were jobs that were off-limits to women like doctor and lawyer and they weren’t even allowed to go to university. i feel like the only thing that is truly acceptable is either being a mother or a nun. even now, there are lists of things that some catholics think women shouldn’t be doing. i’m just so confused by all of it. would an ideal christian society look like with regards to the two genders working together? i feel like there have been too much on either side, men relegating women to second class citizens almost or else women overdoing it and trying to push men out of the picture completely as well. i feel like women should be able to work in most fields (i’m not talking about ordination here; that’s a different issue completely). on the other hand, i feel like that if a person wants to raise kids, that shouldn’t be discouraged either by employers. and according to the bible, apparently wearing men’s clothes is abominable and having short hair is shameful. any advice anyone has would be appreciated. perhaps i am being scrupulous and overthinking?

 

[markomalley]

guys, i don’t really know what to do. i feel really lost. i am a female attending university, don’t like dresses or skirts, enjoy sports, prefer subjects like math and science, rather have short hair, don’t like make-up or jewelry or any of those things. i have no desire for marriage or religious life. but according to catholic teaching as well as vonservative opinion or even the bible, i fall short of being a woman by far. what does it really mean to be a cahotlic woman? i really have no idea. seems like all the advancements made for women have mainly done by the secular world. not that i agree with all the choices. but for example, back in the middle ages, when most people were catholic, there were jobs that were off-limits to women like doctor and lawyer and they weren’t even allowed to go to university. i feel like the only thing that is truly acceptable is either being a mother or a nun. even now, there are lists of things that some catholics think women shouldn’t be doing. i’m just so confused by all of it. would an ideal christian society look like with regards to the two genders working together? i feel like there have been too much on either side, men relegating women to second class citizens almost or else women overdoing it and trying to push men out of the picture completely as well. i feel like women should be able to work in most fields (i’m not talking about ordination here; that’s a different issue completely). on the other hand, i feel like that if a person wants to raise kids, that shouldn’t be discouraged either by employers. and according to the bible, apparently wearing men’s clothes is abominable and having short hair is shameful. any advice anyone has would be appreciated. perhaps i am being scrupulous and overthinking?

(As an editorial note, paragraphs are a wonderful thing)

As for a role for women being second-class citizens, perhaps you think of the Blessed Virgin Mary as being a second-class citizen?

Was she a doctor? Was she an engineer? Was she a politician?

I have worked with women my entire professional career: as peers, as subordinates, and as supervisors. In general, I don’t have too much of a problem with the idea of doing so one way or the other.

Two suggestions:

1. Pray…go before the Lord in Eucharistic Adoration…attempt to truly discern HIS will for you. Don’t try to impose your will on Him. Let yourself be guided by His will for you. If you do so, He will make a way one way or the other.
2. If, after praying and coming to an understanding of God’s will for you, you believe it is His will that you go into the workplace, then by all means do so. Do a great job. Be a light in that workplace. But I suggest that you be very, very, very careful about mixing up being a mother and being in the workplace. Being a mother is a full-time job. Being in the workplace is a full-time job (if it is a career). I see so many women who end up being utterly torn because of conflicts of responsibility and interest. Regardless of what I, as a manager, can do to support mothers who work for me, I always see that conflict of attention going on. It’s tough on the kids and it’s tough on the mothers.

FWIW

 

[1ke]

guys, i don’t really know what to do. i feel really lost. i am a female attending university, don’t like dresses or skirts, enjoy sports, prefer subjects like math and science, rather have short hair, don’t like make-up or jewelry or any of those things. i have no desire for marriage or religious life. but according to catholic teaching as well as vonservative opinion or even the bible, i fall short of being a woman by far.

None of those things has anything to do with being a “Catholic woman” except your vocation. Perhaps you are not called to marriage or to a religious community, perhaps you are. That is a discernment process.

what does it really mean to be a cahotlic woman?

Mulieris Dignitatem

i really have no idea. seems like all the advancements made for women have mainly done by the secular world. not that i agree with all the choices. but for example, back in the middle ages, when most people were catholic, there were jobs that were off-limits to women like doctor and lawyer and they weren’t even allowed to go to university. i feel like the only thing that is truly acceptable is either being a mother or a nun. even now, there are lists of things that some catholics think women shouldn’t be doing. i’m just so confused by all of it.

I suggest you read some of Regine Pernoud’s works. You have a lot of ideas that are not founded in facts.

would an ideal christian society look like with regards to the two genders working together? i feel like there have been too much on either side, men relegating women to second class citizens almost or else women overdoing it and trying to push men out of the picture completely as well. i feel like women should be able to work in most fields (i’m not talking about ordination here; that’s a different issue completely). on the other hand, i feel like that if a person wants to raise kids, that shouldn’t be discouraged either by employers. and according to the bible, apparently wearing men’s clothes is abominable and having short hair is shameful. any advice anyone has would be appreciated. perhaps i am being scrupulous and overthinking?

I believe you are indeed overthinking.

 

[triumphguy]

You are right, it is only recently that women have had the vote and have been able to enter universities and the various professions.

You are also right that the Catholic church values roles of women such as motherhood, and religious life.

However, there have also been many strong lay single women who can provide a good role model for you.

Dorothy Day for example.

Or St. Praxedes—July 21

Praxedes lived during the second century and was known for her kindness and charity toward the poor. As a Roman single woman she cared for those Christians who were being harassed by Emperor Marcus Antoninus. She refused to marry in order to dedicate her life to the poor, persecuted, and suffering.

BTW - you can even shave your head if you want. It was seen as an act of piety in the middle ages And St. Joan of Arc dressed like a soldier.

Here’s an article that could give you some ideas:

catholicnewsagency.com/column.php?n=2682

 

[Contarini]

guys, i don’t really know what to do. i feel really lost. i am a female attending university, don’t like dresses or skirts, enjoy sports, prefer subjects like math and science, rather have short hair, don’t like make-up or jewelry or any of those things. i have no desire for marriage or religious life. but according to catholic teaching as well as vonservative opinion or even the bible, i fall short of being a woman by far.

Not sure where you get that. Where do you find any of these things condemned in Catholic teaching? Dresses and long hair are traditional female garb, and some conservative Protestant traditions (like the one I come from) insist on them, but as far as I know the Catholic Church does not. And makeup and jewelry are criticized in some Biblical texts and by some conservative Christian groups, so I’m not sure why you think disliking them makes you “fall short.”

I think you have acquired some mixed up ideas of what the Church expects of a woman. It sounds as if you have listened to some culturally conservative voices that claim, presumptuously, to speak for the Church.

What on earth is wrong with loving math and science? That means that you are glorifying God with your mind.

what does it really mean to be a cahotlic woman? i really have no idea.

Some possible role models for you:

Edith Stein
Dorothy Day
Catherine of Siena
Julian of Norwich
Macrina

If you haven’t heard of any of these–well, you have some learning to do!

seems like all the advancements made for women have mainly done by the secular world. not that i agree with all the choices. but for example, back in the middle ages, when most people were catholic, there were jobs that were off-limits to women like doctor and lawyer and they weren’t even allowed to go to university.

They weren’t allowed to go to university until quite recently–I’m not sure it’s fair to blame the Church for this.

There were very powerful women in the Middle Ages–look up Catherine of Siena or Hildegard of Bingen, for instance. Yes, women’s roles were limited by cultural expectations, and people’s understanding of the Bible (as well as natural law/philosophy) played a role in that. But many people caricature the situation. I second the recommendation of Regine Pernoud–she’s an excellent scholar (and a Catholic woman) who explodes some of the myths about the Middle Ages.

i feel like the only thing that is truly acceptable is either being a mother or a nun.

Why do you feel this? On what Church teaching is this feeling based?

even now, there are lists of things that some catholics think women shouldn’t be doing.

But “some Catholics” believe all kinds of wacky things. Why do they have authority over you?

i’m just so confused by all of it. would an ideal christian society look like with regards to the two genders working together?

I don’t know what an ideal Christian society would look like–I’m sure that we won’t have one this side of the Eschaton. We are still working out the gender stuff, I think. Jesus lit a slow fuse, and it’s still burning.

Men and women are different, but the differences have often been defined by men based on their own sinful prejudices, and even pious Christian men often indulge in sentimental pontificating without listening enough to the experience of real women. The whole thing is still a work in progress. Feminism reacts to this situation but clearly has plenty of distortions of its own (at least as usually presented).

i feel like women should be able to work in most fields (i’m not talking about ordination here; that’s a different issue completely). on the other hand, i feel like that if a person wants to raise kids, that shouldn’t be discouraged either by employers.

It seems to me, based on my fallible understanding, that what you say here is fully in agreement with Catholic teaching. Make anyone who says otherwise prove what they say. Don’t take their word for it.

and according to the bible, apparently wearing men’s clothes is abominable and having short hair is shameful.

Remember that Catholics interpret Scripture according to the teaching of the Church. I do not believe that the Church necessarily interprets these passages literally to forbid pants and short hair on women.

Edwin

 

[Petaro]

I don’t think that you can pigeonhole woman’s place in our society as simply as you do in your short post. If you take a look at the Dominican nuns’ philosophy in teaching women over the last century you will find an almost feminist viewpoint , in a good sense, that women can do anything to which they set their mind . My grandmother was educated by them and was the first woman doctor to work for the coal mines in New South Wales and one of the first women graduates from Sydney University… My mother, also educated by them, achieved great things as a teacher, a Christian apologist with the Catholic Evidence Guild standing side by side with Frank Sheed the founder of the movement in public debate in the 1920’s and a good wife and mother.
A catholic woman is encouraged by the Church and famously by the present Pontiff, to achieve greatness.
I would suggest that the current gender ‘war’ pushed by the left ignores the natural partnership between man and woman in the encouragement of all strengths and support in all weaknesses that is the foundation of a Christian society.

 

[Cartesian]

i am a female attending university, don’t like dresses or skirts, enjoy sports, prefer subjects like math and science, rather have short hair

So did St. Joan of Arc.

 

[KP3243]

Not for anything the Catholic Church was the first to educate women years and even centuries before the State did. Saint Thomas More famously educated his daughters during Renaissance England and even Erasmus was skeptical until he saw the results with More’s daughters and knew this was going to fundamentally change education.

 

[Catya]

I went through some of the same while attending university and have witnessed it in others.

Students can get all caught up in what their professors are presenting and forget to take a step back and a good, wide, critical look. Professors are not obliged to be fair and impartial. They have their view points and some of them are decidedly narrow. Most are not church-friendly. I came out of Women’s Studies thinking the Church had committed unspeakable evil against women (including a rather dubious women’s holocaust). It wore off.

There have been many institutions and cultural forces, religious or not, that have defined narrow roles for women. With regards to the Church, there is plenty of evidence in either direction. What university courses often fail to mention, however, are are the numerous examples of women religious who were powerful, influential, learned & accomplished. Abbesses of large convents were often major landowners and managed what amounted to huge estates.

Neither does the church oppose married women having careers. I cannot recall her name at the moment, but one of our more recent saints was an Italian woman who was both a physician and a mother of four.

What I’m trying to say, is don’t buy the propaganda of the academic world wholesale.

 

[angell1]

You are right, it is only recently that women have had the vote and have been able to enter universities and the various professions.

You are also right that the Catholic church values roles of women such as motherhood, and religious life.

However, there have also been many strong lay single women who can provide a good role model for you.

Dorothy Day for example.

Or St. Praxedes—July 21

Praxedes lived during the second century and was known for her kindness and charity toward the poor. As a Roman single woman she cared for those Christians who were being harassed by Emperor Marcus Antoninus. She refused to marry in order to dedicate her life to the poor, persecuted, and suffering.

BTW - you can even shave your head if you want. It was seen as an act of piety in the middle ages And St. Joan of Arc dressed like a soldier.

Here’s an article that could give you some ideas:

catholicnewsagency.com/column.php?n=2682

why did it take so long i wonder? for things like university

 

[angell1]

Not sure where you get that. Where do you find any of these things condemned in Catholic teaching? Dresses and long hair are traditional female garb, and some conservative Protestant traditions (like the one I come from) insist on them, but as far as I know the Catholic Church does not. And makeup and jewelry are criticized in some Biblical texts and by some conservative Christian groups, so I’m not sure why you think disliking them makes you “fall short.”

I think you have acquired some mixed up ideas of what the Church expects of a woman. It sounds as if you have listened to some culturally conservative voices that claim, presumptuously, to speak for the Church.

What on earth is wrong with loving math and science? That means that you are glorifying God with your mind.

Some possible role models for you:

Edith Stein
Dorothy Day
Catherine of Siena
Julian of Norwich
Macrina

If you haven’t heard of any of these–well, you have some learning to do!

They weren’t allowed to go to university until quite recently–I’m not sure it’s fair to blame the Church for this.

There were very powerful women in the Middle Ages–look up Catherine of Siena or Hildegard of Bingen, for instance. Yes, women’s roles were limited by cultural expectations, and people’s understanding of the Bible (as well as natural law/philosophy) played a role in that. But many people caricature the situation. I second the recommendation of Regine Pernoud–she’s an excellent scholar (and a Catholic woman) who explodes some of the myths about the Middle Ages.

Why do you feel this? On what Church teaching is this feeling based?

But “some Catholics” believe all kinds of wacky things. Why do they have authority over you?

I don’t know what an ideal Christian society would look like–I’m sure that we won’t have one this side of the Eschaton. We are still working out the gender stuff, I think. Jesus lit a slow fuse, and it’s still burning.

Men and women are different, but the differences have often been defined by men based on their own sinful prejudices, and even pious Christian men often indulge in sentimental pontificating without listening enough to the experience of real women. The whole thing is still a work in progress. Feminism reacts to this situation but clearly has plenty of distortions of its own (at least as usually presented).

It seems to me, based on my fallible understanding, that what you say here is fully in agreement with Catholic teaching. Make anyone who says otherwise prove what they say. Don’t take their word for it.

Remember that Catholics interpret Scripture according to the teaching of the Church. I do not believe that the Church necessarily interprets these passages literally to forbid pants and short hair on women.

Edwin

if they misunderstood the bible in those days, couldn’t they have misunderstood other things about the bible as well? and i’m not blaming the church, but they were powerful in the middle ages, it could have happened then

 

[triumphguy]

why did it take so long i wonder? for things like university

That’s down to society not accepting the role of women.

But you have the opportunity now:thumbsup:

 

[bzkoss236]

So did St. Joan of Arc.

And she’s quite the female Catholic.

 

[Tous_Logous]

I really think you are over-thinking this.

First of all, you really need to read up on the European Middle Ages, and I mean REALLY. There are so many things wrong with your some of your statements. Here are two books I highly recommend and they are easy to read:

1. Life in a Medieval City by Joseph and Francis Gies
   2, Life in Medieval Times by Marjorie Rowling

The Church has always held women in high regard. Think about it, the Virgin Mary is our “highest” Saint after God Himself. Whatever some attitudes medieval churchmen and secular men had towards women were the personal and cultural opinions of men themselves, not of the Church. We would like to think that all women were treated like dirt, were hated by their husbands, were not loved by anyone, etc. That is simply not the case.

It is true that specific occupations such as being a doctor, engineer, scientist, etc. were not always open to women. Think about it, in many parts of the world, such occupations today are still not open to women AND men. Some societies simply have no need for these occupations (think about it, does a Yanomami woman or man living in the Amazon really need to become an engineer for her/his tribe?). Again, these opinions and attitudes are really based on culture, not on what the Church thinks.

I am a woman and a scientist. I do not see the “gender war” that so many other scientists or non-religious claim to see in Catholic women. It just doesn’t exist from my point-of-view. When I was an atheist, I seriously thought there was a “gender war” going on. After all, my female professors who taught “women in science” and “latin american geography” classes told me there was. I really thought those Catholics were dumb. Turns out we are the smart ones…do you know how many Catholics in the past 2,000 years have made amazing scientific discoveries? I dare you to google and find out.

I don’t see playing sports, liking science+math, not wearing makeup, exclusively as “male” things, just as some men don’t see cooking, cleaning, and taking care of the children exclusively as “female” things. Cultural trends change; in many ancient cultures, for example, men wore make-up. In the western, secular world today men do not wear make-up so much. And if a man is found to wear make-up he may be insulted and called different obscenities not only by other men but by women also.

Men and women should always be open to life. Am I married yet? No. Do I have any kids currently? No. Am I open for marriage and children in the future? Yes. Do I want my career to overshadow my love for God? No. Should I try to use my career to help others and lead them to God? Yes.

Your opinions are really clouded in the bias of the culture you grow up in. I think there is a lot of confusion and misinformation that you and others have. You need to stop viewing the past as if it is something that should evolve to your modern standards. People did and continue to not think the same way as you or your generation does.

I think it’s time-if you have not already-to obtain a copy of the “Catechism of the Catholic Church,” and talk to a priest about your questions. Learn from trusted sources, and stop reading the Bible as if it is a modern day textbook. It is an entirely different culture, and if you try to view it through the lens of your own culture, I can guarantee you will be highly disappointed. This is a problem in anthropology, on how scientists try to understand the past only by imparting their modern cultural bias on an ancient culture.

 

[George_Stegmeir]

I do not know who you have been talking to at your University, but it is not uncommon for Catholics to be set upon with assorted ideas that are opposed to Church thinking. In addition, there are those Feminists on campus who just delight in foisting their views upon young women who have been raised according to Catholic beliefs and do not know how to counter their arguments.
So, I have a suggestion for you. Your University campus, in all probability, has a chapter of the Newman Club and a Newman House on it, or at least in its neighborhood. Why not go there and try to seek their Chaplain. If necessary, make an appointment to see him. Outline what you have asked here to him. He will be able to help you.

 

[SecretGarden]

My dear Sister in Christ,
I feel your pain. Being a Catholic woman and a student is extremely difficult no matter what people will say. I think it is important to be proud of who you are. This world needs more Catholic scientists and Mathematicians. We need someone to show how wonderful science and math can be.

I know alot of women who don’t wear alot of makeup and they are well educated. The fact there are some roles inside the Catholic church which are closed to us, it stinks but it doesn’t mean you can’t be one of the people to change it. Being a Catholic woman also doesn’t prevent you from becoming a doctor, nurse, scientist, lawyer etc. God gave you several strengths for various subjects for a reason. Please don’t let the church dictate what you become but let it be a guiding light. Who is to say, down the road, you may change your mind and decide that motherhood is what you want. I know many Catholic women who have managed motherhood with their careers. If they can do it, so will you if that becomes something you want later on.

In the meantime, pray to God for direction and let him guide the way. Please don’t let biases dictate the direction for your life but allow the Holy Spirit to guide you.
If you want to talk more about it, message me.

SG

 

[Starrsmother]

Are you happy and satisfied with your life and the direction you are heading? Are you happy with your hairstyle and, whether you dress fashionably or not, does it please you? If so, you are on the right track for you. Marriage is not for everyone and neither is motherhood. It’s far worse to marry and have kids out of some sick 6th century sense of duty than to forego doing so and do a really good job of living your life as you are now. I’m married and have kids and I worked all my life. It’s a hard row to hoe. For me, I wanted both things–a family and a career—and you can have both if you want it too—but it does come with a price. If you are content as you are, stay that way. There is no law that says it’s either marriage and family or the convent for a Catholic woman. That, again, is 6th century BS!

 

[po18guy]

I think, rather, that you are struggling with being yourself. God created you exactly as you are, and has an infinite and undying love for you. If you feel no call to either the married or religious life, then you are called to the vocation of the single life.

 

[LaRue]

I sympathize with your frustration in discerning a role that is comfortable for you. I did marry and have children, but the marriage didn’t work out (I received my annulment from the church the week before i was received into the church). I have no desire to remarry and I like the single life, hate to dress up, and my idea of an ideal shopping trip is to a bookstore or a golf pro shop to try out the newest clubs.

The fact is that today we have all the choices men have, and my choice was always to have a career of my own and have done so for many years. I started out in the 60s when women were having an uphill battle being accepted on equal terms with men in the workplace. I learned two important lessons along the way. The first was from a fine book called"The Managerial Woman" in which the author said that boys learn an important lesson in athletics that has eluded many women of my generation: The lesson: It doesn’t matter what position you play on the team or even if you don’t like the other players, it still takes 11 to play football. After I figured that out, I was much more comfortable dealing with men as equals in a work environment.Often I had to work on management projects with people I didn’t particularly care for but recognized the need to put aside critical attitudes and annoyances and play on the team. The guys finally accepted me as one of them but sometimes came to me for advice about women in their lives.

The second lesson i learned is that once I felt comfortable with who I am and what I like about my life and how I live it, a lot of self-consciousness and worry about filling someone else’s expectations about what a woman should do or be disappeared.

Today I have 5 grown children, 13 grandchildren, and I forget how many great-grandchildren (I think it’s five or 6 now) but I still work at a career I love as a writer and generally wear old jeans and a sloppy tee shirt to work in my home office. On Sundays I struggle into more formal clothing and on very rare occasions when I have to meet with a client I’ll bring out the old skirted suit with a personality to match—but I always know who I am inside and I’ve grown to like the woman I am. I can still bake cookies for church sales and host a Thanksgiving dinner for family, but I never lose sight of who I am. So be yourself. These days, there’s no such thing as a conventional one-dimensional role for a woman. If you don’t fit other people’s version of what a Catholic woman should be, make your own role that fits you. Blessings!

 

[SybilMolly]

Just a word: dressing in man’s clothes is different from wearing jeans that are made for a women. I’m pretty sure the Bible means that one should only dress in his or her own gender specific clothing.