Struggling with Catholicism

[Holly3278]

You might try looking at how the Early Church believed and practiced. If you do this, you will find that what they believed and practiced are exactly the same as how Catholics practice it nowadays. After all, the Early Church was Catholic.

That said, we do NOT worship Mary or the saints. We venerate them. There is a big difference between venerating and worshiping. You might try looking at the many articles on Catholic Answers main site which is catholic.com.

 

[promethius]

I’m sorry, but you honestly did not handle this in a mature manner. Further advice, I suggest you do not react this way to anyone in the future who has similar posts. I am not a protestant troll trying to convert Catholics to a Protestant faith. Nowhere did I ever even come close to saying that or state that as my purpose. If you carry yourself that way whenever non-Catholics approach you with sincere questions, I can see why they may gain the wrong impression of Catholics. I commend the previous people for their understanding responses to my post, but I could not help but to sit in shock at your attitude and tone of your reply. I pray you carry on in a more sophisticated and mature manner next time a situation like this comes up. God Bless.

I typed it without emotion. Perhaps you should read it the same way…

Let’s look at what you said:

1. Catholics are brainwashed (and by extension, that Catholic Schools brainwash children)… this statement ALONE is a grave violation of forum rules.
2. That we have hollow prayers
3. That we have hollow rites
4. You left to go to a Bible Church where you found REAL faith
5. Your father believed Catholics pray to and worship Mary, you “researched” and could find no defense
6. You then violated forum rules to post a link to a blatantly anti-catholic site.

So while you may NOT be a protestant looking to garner interest in an anti-catholic site with your writing, everything you’ve typed points to that conclusion. I’ve merely logically highlighted that fact, while not introducing emotion into it.

I will, however, commend you on one thing: if you are honest, and I reserve judgement on that point, you do well to take hindsight and ponder a little more fully if you acted irrationally in judging the church so harshly so quickly.

 

[promethius]

I agree. You seem sincere, and he has broken a forum rule by calling you a troll. Such unseemly behavior can only push people away from the Church by reinforcing stereotypes - and I’m a staunch defender of traditional Catholicism who has been infracted any number of times for vigorous defense of its teachings.

Quite the contrary, here are the links to the forum rules:

1. Forum Rules
2. Banned Topics

What IS against the rules? Asserting that the Catholic Church brainwashes children, that we worship Mary and the Saints, that we’re not a bible based church, questioning the sincerity of our rites and prayers, and linking to blatantly anti-catholic sites for anything other than a valid reference point for discussion.

What is NOT against the rules is highlighting when one thinks that there is an incongruity between online identity and the very real fact that someone is violating forum rules to publish links to anti-catholic websites.

People who are trying to convert do more talking and less listening, like the seventh-day adventist “Samie” or any number of other CARM-sent individuals over the ages.

Conversely, having been FORCED to attend protestant non-denominational type churches for years as a youngin’, I can personally attest to the use of practices such as missionary dating, missionary friendships, etc that some use in their attempts. That is why, given the fact that the OP’s first post basically asserts that the Catholic church is a child-brainwashing cult, that I question whether or not he’s here in keeping with the forums rules.

Charity does not require us to allow people to claim that the church brainwashes children…

 

[paul_c]

Quite the contrary, here are the links to the forum rules:

1. Forum Rules
2. Banned Topics

What IS against the rules? Asserting that the Catholic Church brainwashes children, that we worship Mary and the Saints, that we’re not a bible based church, questioning the sincerity of our rites and prayers, and linking to blatantly anti-catholic sites for anything other than a valid reference point for discussion.

What is NOT against the rules is highlighting when one thinks that there is an incongruity between online identity and the very real fact that someone is violating forum rules to publish links to anti-catholic websites.

Conversely, having been FORCED to attend protestant non-denominational type churches for years as a youngin’, I can personally attest to the use of practices such as missionary dating, missionary friendships, etc that some use in their attempts. That is why, given the fact that the OP’s first post basically asserts that the Catholic church is a child-brainwashing cult, that I question whether or not he’s here in keeping with the forums rules.

Charity does not require us to allow people to claim that the church brainwashes children…

just be charitable. We help to save souls through the power of our love, not the power of our arguments.

 

[MarkInOregon]

Hey everyone,

I have been on and off this site reading threads for sometime. Let me start off by saying that I was born and raised Catholic. I am currently 18 years old and am a freshman college student at a Nazarene college. I am no longer and am currently not sure what denomination I will “choose” I guess I should put it because I’m in a little situation.

I really became active in my Catholic faith throughout high school. I recited prayers, prayed the Rosary, attended all of the masses, went to confession, etc. However, a time came during the summer before I attended college. My father separated from the Catholic church and said how he didn’t understand why Catholics prayed to saints or Mary when the Bible states we shouldn’t worship any other than God, purgatory, sacraments, and the usual things that Protestants argue against. I was strong in my Catholic faith (or so I thought) so I told him that it was what we should do. However, I realized I had no proof to back it up. I suddenly realized other things too. I grew up in private Catholic schools since pre school and found out that I was sort of brainwashed. I knew what we believed but I didn’t know why. I also realized I didn’t have a personal relationship with God and that it was robotic how I was practicing my faith. It went downhill from there. I didn’t seem to get a lot out of mass and saw it as repetitive and robotic too. So I took a break and experimented with a different church. It was a Bible Church and I loved it and continued to attend it. My prayer life became more genuine instead of recited prayers and I was getting a lot more out of the bible church services. It was weird at first because I was a die hard Catholic. So I separated from the faith before I enrolled at my college. My questions are why do Catholics believe what they believe? Why is sola scriptura not ok? Do Catholics believe they are the only true faith and that other denominations won’t go to heaven? I’m just concerned because I didn’t have a spiritual mentor to guide me through Catholicsm and I may have rushed out of it. I’m not downgrading the faith whatsoever, I like a lot of aspects of it and I just have questions about others. Thanks for your time and I hope you can understand where I’m coming from.

I’m not going to address your questions about the why’s at this time. I am sure others will do that–and with a little study and research you can find those answers–I know I did and it didn’ take that much work. I simply want to comment on a couple of things you said.

“found out I was sort of brainwashed. I knew what I beleived but I didn’t know why” Shouldn’t you take the time to find out the why? Isn’t that what we do when we grow up–and you are now growing up. The answers are there and the catholic ones make a whole lot more sense when considered in totality–in the context of the entire body of Christian doctrine–there is a unity and cohesiveness you will not find elsewhere. And how do you know it is not the others that are brainwashed? Take al look around I think much of our society has been brainwashed into seeking happiness in material goods and pleasures–which will perish.

“I also realized I didn’t have a personal releationship with God and the it was robotic how I was practicing my faith.” This isn’t a problem with Catholicism or its doctirne–this is a you problem (sorry). I know many Catholics who’s practice of their faith is anything but robotic, it is heartfelt and deep and comes from a deep love of God. At the same time I know many protestants who claim to have this “personal relationship” with God but you would never know it from the lives they lead. You’ll find people in all faiths who just go through the motions–this isn’t something unique to Catholicism. Can you point out the passage where Jesus commands me to have “personal relationship with him”?

“I didn’t seem to get a lot out of mass and saw it as repetitive and robotic too.”" I suggest you read Justin Martyr and his description of Mass in the very early church and then look at the Catholic mass and the worship service you currently attend–and ask yourself which service best resembles what was done by the apostles. I would also suggest Scott Hahns The Lambs Supper. I find I get a lot out of the mass and find it a glimpse of heaven here on earth and couldn’t imagine life withhout it. Are you expecting to be entertained or are you going to worship God? I go to worship God and to receive God as he commanded–not to hear a good band and listen to an entertaining speaker.

“My prayer life became more genuine instead of recited prayers” I thought a genuine prayer life was one that came from the heart–from the Holy Spirit (after all we don’t know how to pray as we should) not from the words themselves. Can you point out where the Bible says “spontanious” prayer is genuine prayer and condemns recited prayer? And can you remind me what Jesus told his disciples in response to their question re: how to pray. I believe he gave them a prayer to recite?

It is great that you are developing a closer relationship to God and Christ and that your prayer life is deepening–but everything you complained about and said you are finding elsewhere can be found even more fully in the Catholic church–if you look, and if you seek. If you seek in earnest I think you wil find what you truly need right here in the Catholic church–and through your study maybe you can correct your fathers misconceptions about the Church and be an instrument for his return.

I pray that the Holy Spirit enlighten you and guide you on your search.
The peace of Christ,
Mark

 

[promethius]

just be charitable. We help to save souls through the power of our love, not the power of our arguments.

I’m not being UNCharitable, if you read my post without injected emotion, you’ll find that I’m merely highlighting areas of concern in his post. If the OP is offended by people saying he’s wrong to say the church brainwashed him, then perhaps he shouldn’t post such claims.

Of course, in light of the severity of his actions, I’ve gone back and reported his posts to the moderators to let them decide. Calling catholic schools instruments of brainwashing is too serious to simply offer correction from one person to another…

 

[MarkInOregon]

I’m not being UNCharitable, if you read my post without injected emotion, you’ll find that I’m merely highlighting areas of concern in his post. If the OP is offended by people saying he’s wrong to say the church brainwashed him, then perhaps he shouldn’t post such claims.

Of course, in light of the severity of his actions, I’ve gone back and reported his posts to the moderators to let them decide. Calling catholic schools instruments of brainwashing is too serious to simply offer correction from one person to another…

While claiming no emotion to your post --it would seem that you are reading a bit into the OP’s post. He said he grew up in Catholic schools and was sort of brainwashed. He made no assertion regarding Catholic schools in general forceably idoctrinating children to give up religious beliefs they already have. At worst he may have used the term to mean persuasion by propaganda. It seems at least me to me that you exagerated his claim as I certainly did not read it in the same manner as you.

Peace of Christ,
Mark

 

[promethius]

While claiming no emotion to your post --it would seem that you are reading a bit into the OP’s post. He said he grew up in Catholic schools and was sort of brainwashed. He made no assertion regarding Catholic schools in general forceably idoctrinating children to give up religious beliefs they already have. At worst he may have used the term to mean persuasion by propaganda. It seems at least me to me that you exagerated his claim as I certainly did not read it in the same manner as you.

Peace of Christ,
Mark

That’s why I gave him the benefit of the doubt and publicly stated that it seemed fishy. His response (and Khalid’s) led me to the conclusion that the disposition of that statement should be sorted out by the moderators instead, their being more familiar with the rules of the forum and all.

I gave him the opportunity to clarify and say “I’m sorry I said I was sort of brainwashed at Catholic School, I’m not trolling and I didn’t mean it to come accross that way” before I decided to report him.

 

[Tranc7]

I think you over thought my initial post. I never said Catholic schools brainwash their students, but if you took it that way then it was a misunderstanding. Your first reply did seem like you had emotion, considering you had exclamation points after some statements. I never said the Catholic church was “this” or “that”. I simply stated my experiences and sought guidance that would help me thrive, since my previous efforts outside of this website did not succeed. If you haven’t noticed, I have been thanking the generous replies because they are pointing towards the right direction: Catholicism. So please, before you make assumptions about what I initially posted, ask me first if they were what I meant or if you misunderstood. Thank you. If I offended the forum rules, I am sorry and seek forgiveness. However, I do not know how I could have unless you thought I was saying something different.

 

[Tranc7]

You might try looking at how the Early Church believed and practiced. If you do this, you will find that what they believed and practiced are exactly the same as how Catholics practice it nowadays. After all, the Early Church was Catholic.

That said, we do NOT worship Mary or the saints. We venerate them. There is a big difference between venerating and worshiping. You might try looking at the many articles on Catholic Answers main site which is catholic.com.

Thank you for clearing that up for me

 

[Rhuarc]

Your father really only brought up garden variety claims against the church ALL of which have been shot down many centuries ago. We do not worship saints we venerate them. I too was once a “protestants” but my understanding of protestant churches are that when you go there you only get the “liturgy of the Word”. The Word is great but you HAVE TO HAVE TO HAVE TO have the Eucharist to accompany it as well. Besides I cannot tell you a one protestant church that is connected with other ones. I mean sure maybe one church and another may be connected but those kind of unions pale in comparison to the unity of the One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church. Maybe it is just my zealousness of a convert but I don’t think you understand the true beauty of the Church that Christ built.

 

[promethius]

I think you over thought my initial post. I never said Catholic schools brainwash their students, but if you took it that way then it was a misunderstanding. Your first reply did seem like you had emotion, considering you had exclamation points after some statements. I never said the Catholic church was “this” or “that”. I simply stated my experiences and sought guidance that would help me thrive, since my previous efforts outside of this website did not succeed. If you haven’t noticed, I have been thanking the generous replies because they are pointing towards the right direction: Catholicism. So please, before you make assumptions about what I initially posted, ask me first if they were what I meant or if you misunderstood. Thank you. If I offended the forum rules, I am sorry and seek forgiveness. However, I do not know how I could have unless you thought I was saying something different.

Okay, so I’ll accept, then, that you’re on the up with us. I’ve written the moderator and asked him to ignore my earlier report on the understanding that you’re a new poster and that there was a misunderstanding.

Let me bottle up the thrust of what I was saying then:

The Catholic church DOES have answers to the questions you have, and we don’t ever advocate that anyone follow out of blind faith. We are also the biblical church, and that’s an important thing to understand. Saying “I left the church for a bible church” is a really offensive thing to say, when the Church canonized the scripture and has promulgated it to the masses throughout thousands of years of history… despite the loss of life and great suffering that sometimes came with that. The only reason there is a Bible today is because the catholic church did not allow her teachings to be perverted by the persecution of Rome.

While I think you should have done more research before deciding to leave the church, I do think it’s good that you’re looking at your rapid departure from the church again and wondering if it was the right decision. You certainly are not the only person in history who has stepped away and then rethought that decision at a later date. Who knows, perhaps this is God’s path for you… a sort of “dark night of the soul” for you to refine your senses in your spiritual walk…

I notice that you have a lot of issues, about which you have given us a sort of “shotgun blast” here in this thread, and that is generally not the best way to discuss such issues. I would suggest that you pick your top three issues (eg, sola scriptura, prayer to the saints, repetitive prayers) and create a thread for each of them so that you can gather more information in a comprehensive and specific way… us giving you mere pebbles of information in response to each issue, and trying to cram it all into one thread, is going to be a very shallow approach, when I think that what you are looking for is more intellectually deep than that. And after we’ve addressed those three issues, create new threads regarding your other concerns.

So, Tranc7, peace be with you and I hope you find what you’re looking for.

 

[Holly3278]

Thank you for clearing that up for me

You’re welcome. I felt it was my duty as a Catholic to do so. May God receive all the glory.

 

[Tranc7]

Your father really only brought up garden variety claims against the church ALL of which have been shot down many centuries ago. We do not worship saints we venerate them. I too was once a “protestants” but my understanding of protestant churches are that when you go there you only get the “liturgy of the Word”. The Word is great but you HAVE TO HAVE TO HAVE TO have the Eucharist to accompany it as well. Besides I cannot tell you a one protestant church that is connected with other ones. I mean sure maybe one church and another may be connected but those kind of unions pale in comparison to the unity of the One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church. Maybe it is just my zealousness of a convert but I don’t think you understand the true beauty of the Church that Christ built.

I’m starting to gain that zealousness as I learn more and more about how it came about. I read a little of Christianity History yesterday and it’s just amazing how…(I can’t even put a word on it)…the Catholic Church is. I don’t believe a word can explain it, but it would be an extremely positive one.

 

[Tranc7]

I’m not going to address your questions about the why’s at this time. I am sure others will do that–and with a little study and research you can find those answers–I know I did and it didn’ take that much work. I simply want to comment on a couple of things you said.

“found out I was sort of brainwashed. I knew what I beleived but I didn’t know why” Shouldn’t you take the time to find out the why? Isn’t that what we do when we grow up–and you are now growing up. The answers are there and the catholic ones make a whole lot more sense when considered in totality–in the context of the entire body of Christian doctrine–there is a unity and cohesiveness you will not find elsewhere. And how do you know it is not the others that are brainwashed? Take al look around I think much of our society has been brainwashed into seeking happiness in material goods and pleasures–which will perish.

“I also realized I didn’t have a personal releationship with God and the it was robotic how I was practicing my faith.” This isn’t a problem with Catholicism or its doctirne–this is a you problem (sorry). I know many Catholics who’s practice of their faith is anything but robotic, it is heartfelt and deep and comes from a deep love of God. At the same time I know many protestants who claim to have this “personal relationship” with God but you would never know it from the lives they lead. You’ll find people in all faiths who just go through the motions–this isn’t something unique to Catholicism. Can you point out the passage where Jesus commands me to have “personal relationship with him”?

“I didn’t seem to get a lot out of mass and saw it as repetitive and robotic too.”" I suggest you read Justin Martyr and his description of Mass in the very early church and then look at the Catholic mass and the worship service you currently attend–and ask yourself which service best resembles what was done by the apostles. I would also suggest Scott Hahns The Lambs Supper. I find I get a lot out of the mass and find it a glimpse of heaven here on earth and couldn’t imagine life withhout it. Are you expecting to be entertained or are you going to worship God? I go to worship God and to receive God as he commanded–not to hear a good band and listen to an entertaining speaker.

“My prayer life became more genuine instead of recited prayers” I thought a genuine prayer life was one that came from the heart–from the Holy Spirit (after all we don’t know how to pray as we should) not from the words themselves. Can you point out where the Bible says “spontanious” prayer is genuine prayer and condemns recited prayer? And can you remind me what Jesus told his disciples in response to their question re: how to pray. I believe he gave them a prayer to recite?

It is great that you are developing a closer relationship to God and Christ and that your prayer life is deepening–but everything you complained about and said you are finding elsewhere can be found even more fully in the Catholic church–if you look, and if you seek. If you seek in earnest I think you wil find what you truly need right here in the Catholic church–and through your study maybe you can correct your fathers misconceptions about the Church and be an instrument for his return.

I pray that the Holy Spirit enlighten you and guide you on your search.
The peace of Christ,
Mark

Wonderful words, brother. I commend you for taking the time to share them. All of these are helping out my situation more and more and helping me realize how naive I was.

 

[GraceDK]

Thank you for your reply. It’s surprising how much I am learning from you all already, probably more than I ever learned in school in regards to the in-depth stuff. I plan on purchasing the Catholicism and Fundamentalism book along with Defending the Catholic Faith or something like that. Thanks again!

Hey brother

You might wanna get these books:
Mark Shea: By What Authority?
David Currie: Born Fundamentalist, Born Again Catholic

They deal with all the same things as Keatings Book, but they are more easy and entertaining to read. and will teach you just as well… I read them all, and thats my oppinion…

 

[Tranc7]

Ok I definitely will check them out! Thanks

 

[Prayer_Warrior]

I would recommend the book “Four Witnesses” by Rod Bennett if you are interested in the historical Church. You will get a mind blowing account of how the worship of early Christians was very Catholic. The Didache is also an amazing source of information about early Christian worship. It is what some people refer to as the oldest Catholic Catechism and it is dated to the first century. Again, you will see how the first Christians were worshipped as Catholics do (the Didache is a short instruction for Christians, you can google it).

Regarding the Scriptures, if you want a Bible with some commentary to help you understand why Catholics view verses as they do, I have two recommendations. One is the Ignatius Study Bible – New Testament which has commentary by Scott Hahn. It is really detailed and I feel it is outstanding. They are still working on an Old Testament with Commentary, but just getting the New Testament will provide tons of information for you. Another set of commentaries is the Navarre Study Bible series. This is a collection of volumes-- I think there are 12 for the New Testament and several for the Old Testament. Again, the commentary is excellent, but it is expensive to get them all at the same time and takes up a lot of room. However, it is a noteworthy collection if you are interested. If you are short on funds for Bible studies, here is a link to a fantastic online study of some of the Bible. It’s more than enough to keep you busy for a while. It is written by a lay person, but I have never seen anything unorthodox in the books I’ve studied from that site. Also, the Haydock Commentary is available on line. It is a bit dated, but spot-on Catholic Biblical commentary.

 

[Khalid]

The Navarre has been released in a ten-volume set of hardcovers, seven for the Old and three for the New, and a nineteen volume set of mixed bindings, seven for the old and twelve for the New, and also a complementary 1-volume New Testament addition (more Church Fathers and Councils, less St Josemaria).

The Haydock Bible is my personal favorite, but the Early Modern English can be a challenge to read. In a way it is good, as it can increase your concentration in reading. In a way it is bad, as all of your mind is spent parsing the archaic English. Having it in a verse-per-paragraph broken-up two-column setting also doesn’t help with comprehension. However, the commentary is the best available, and there is nothing like it, either Protestant or Catholic, available today. The commentary is massive and in tiny print, and is longer than the commentary in all of the ten volumes of Navarre put together (the commentary on the Psalms is usually about 80-90% - literally - of the page, and is equal to a two-volume standalone Psalms commentary). To get the most out of the Haydock you need to know Greek and Latin, but it’s not necessary (it was written back in a time where everyone who was literate was expected to be able to read the Classical languages to a point).

The Ignatius Bible is also good. It’s modern English, paragraphed, and has decent commentary, although not nearly as in-depth as the Haydock. The Haydock has many notes of many different types, as the cover says, “devotional, apologetic, doctrinal, explanatory, controversial” and more, the Navarre focuses on mainly devotional notes with a sprinkling of liberal Biblical criticism every so often (but rarely), and the ICSB focuses mainly on technical exegetical and doctrinal issues. They supplement each other well.

The Navarre is in RSV-CE. The Old Testament, especially Isaiah and the Psalms, of the RSV-CE is bad. The annotation is good, as is the NT. The ICSB comes in the RSV-2CE is better, but not as good as the NASB or ESV for the Old Testament (however, those don’t come with the deuterocanon in normal editions, but one can buy an ESV with “apocrypha”, if you don’t mind the gender-neutral language of the ESV), but is superior for the NT. The Haydock comes in Douay-Rheims Challoner, which I believe is one of the best, if not the best translation out there, but it is in King-James-style English. All are far superior to the modern “Catholic ‘Holy’ Bibles” NAB/RE and NJB.

 

[bmonk]

…My father separated from the Catholic church and said how he didn’t understand why Catholics prayed to saints or Mary when the Bible states we shouldn’t worship any other than God, purgatory, sacraments, and the usual things that Protestants argue against… I knew what we believed but I didn’t know why. I also realized I didn’t have a personal relationship with God and that it was robotic how I was practicing my faith… My questions are why do Catholics believe what they believe? Why is sola scriptura not ok? Do Catholics believe they are the only true faith and that other denominations won’t go to heaven? I’m just concerned because I didn’t have a spiritual mentor to guide me through Catholicsm and I may have rushed out of it. I’m not downgrading the faith whatsoever, I like a lot of aspects of it and I just have questions about others. Thanks for your time and I hope you can understand where I’m coming from.

Why do we believe what we believe? Because we trust the promise of the Holy Spirit to the Church that Jesus made at the Last Supper (See John 14:15-18, 15:26-27, 16:7-15) that the Church would not stray. This was not promised to individual Christians, but to the community. And, as St. Anselm said, we continue to reflect on our faith so that we may believe more fully.

Sola Scriptura is inadequate, as many have mentioned, not least because no two people or communities seem to be able to agree on what the Scriptures say, even if they use the same text. The existence of over 15,000 denominations that all (more or less) claim to follow the Bible is graphic evidence of that.

Do Catholics believe they are the only true faith and that other denominations won’t go to heaven? Not at all. Those who are sincere in their faith will be offered mercy. And we do admit that many churches have the truth in part–but that the Catholic Church has the fullness of the faith. And it’s better to know the full truth than only a part. For example, a 20-year-old road map may help get you to your destination–but a new one is better, because it shows the roads as they are, not as they were.