Struggling with Catholicism

  • Thread starter Thread starter Tranc7
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
Why do we believe what we believe? Because we trust the promise of the Holy Spirit to the Church that Jesus made at the Last Supper (See John 14:15-18, 15:26-27, 16:7-15) that the Church would not stray. This was not promised to individual Christians, but to the community. And, as St. Anselm said, we continue to reflect on our faith so that we may believe more fully.

Sola Scriptura is inadequate, as many have mentioned, not least because no two people or communities seem to be able to agree on what the Scriptures say, even if they use the same text. The existence of over 15,000 denominations that all (more or less) claim to follow the Bible is graphic evidence of that.

Do Catholics believe they are the only true faith and that other denominations won’t go to heaven? Not at all. Those who are sincere in their faith will be offered mercy. And we do admit that many churches have the truth in part–but that the Catholic Church has the fullness of the faith. And it’s better to know the full truth than only a part. For example, a 20-year-old road map may help get you to your destination–but a new one is better, because it shows the roads as they are, not as they were.
I disagree with this. Catholics **Do **believe that we follow the ONE true faith. There is only one truth. And you should never discuss Catholicism as just another denomination. It is not a denomination at all. It is the One, Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church. Do not pretend that others are a substitute - they are not. They don’t administer the grace giving sacraments by which we are saved (other than the Orthodox).

And you are right, in as far as they agree with Catholic teaching, they teach the truth. Many teach mostly truth. You are also right that non-Catholics can aspire to heaven as well - but just like Catholics, they need to die in the state of grace to go to heaven.- Not easy to do without the sacraments. Of course, God is not bound by his sacraments, but he set them up for a reason so it would not be recommended to turn your back on them.
 
I disagree with this. Catholics **Do **believe that we follow the ONE true faith. There is only one truth. And you should never discuss Catholicism as just another denomination. It is not a denomination at all. It is the One, Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church. Do not pretend that others are a substitute - they are not. They don’t administer the grace giving sacraments by which we are saved (other than the Orthodox).

And you are right, in as far as they agree with Catholic teaching, they teach the truth. Many teach mostly truth. You are also right that non-Catholics can aspire to heaven as well - but just like Catholics, they need to die in the state of grace to go to heaven.- Not easy to do without the sacraments. Of course, God is not bound by his sacraments, but he set them up for a reason so it would not be recommended to turn your back on them.
Yes, I agree–sorry if that wasn’t clear.

But, from, say, an individual’s perspective, I cannot believe that God will not have mercy on a sincere Lutheran who does his best to be faithful, even if he is mislead. And I do agree that the Catholic has many more resources to come to God in grace.
 
Hello. First and foremost I do congratulate you for searching for answers.

You are not the only one who struggles with Catholicism. You’re not the first and definitely not the last. However, we ask saints and the Blessed Mother to pray for us to God because they can always put in a good word for us so to speak. We need all the help we can get! We believe that they are now in glory with God.

Many of today’s evangelical / fundamental christians preach that the faithfully departed are asleep or have gone unto the bossom of Abraham. Remember though, when Christ during his crucifixion, hanging on the cross to the criminal next to him said, “you will instantly be with me in paradise.” Know that we will instantly be in paradise with Him our Lord and Savior Christ Jesus when our hour comes to be. And when we are with Him we can put in a good word for our family and friends too, just like the saints and the Blessed Mother!!!
 
Hey everyone,

I have been on and off this site reading threads for sometime. Let me start off by saying that I was born and raised Catholic. I am currently 18 years old and am a freshman college student at a Nazarene college. I am no longer and am currently not sure what denomination I will “choose” I guess I should put it because I’m in a little situation.

I really became active in my Catholic faith throughout high school. I recited prayers, prayed the Rosary, attended all of the masses, went to confession, etc. However, a time came during the summer before I attended college. My father separated from the Catholic church and said how he didn’t understand why Catholics prayed to saints or Mary when the Bible states we shouldn’t worship any other than God, purgatory, sacraments, and the usual things that Protestants argue against. I was strong in my Catholic faith (or so I thought) so I told him that it was what we should do. However, I realized I had no proof to back it up. I suddenly realized other things too. I grew up in private Catholic schools since pre school and found out that I was sort of brainwashed. I knew what we believed but I didn’t know why. I also realized I didn’t have a personal relationship with God and that it was robotic how I was practicing my faith. It went downhill from there. I didn’t seem to get a lot out of mass and saw it as repetitive and robotic too. So I took a break and experimented with a different church. It was a Bible Church and I loved it and continued to attend it. My prayer life became more genuine instead of recited prayers and I was getting a lot more out of the bible church services. It was weird at first because I was a die hard Catholic. So I separated from the faith before I enrolled at my college. My questions are why do Catholics believe what they believe? Why is sola scriptura not ok? Do Catholics believe they are the only true faith and that other denominations won’t go to heaven? I’m just concerned because I didn’t have a spiritual mentor to guide me through Catholicsm and I may have rushed out of it. I’m not downgrading the faith whatsoever, I like a lot of aspects of it and I just have questions about others. Thanks for your time and I hope you can understand where I’m coming from.
*Hello Tranc!

What can you tell me about the Eucharist? Why is it the “source and summit” of our Catholic Faith?

God bless you
Cinette:)*
 
I’d like to address some of the claims made here.

First, I don’t how many times I’ve been told by Catholics to study the early church fathers, and I’ll learn how Catholic they were. Folks, I’ve never heard anything so outrageous before. Some of the most heavy weight patristic scholars have been non-Catholics.

For example, Philip Schaff, probably one the greatest patristic scholars of all times was a Protestant. Everybody relies on his translations of the early fathers into English, including what I’d say is the most frequently cited online Catholic source: www.newadvent.org. They rely on a Protestant patristic scholar’s work. My point is that the early church fathers are not black and white, non-Catholics like Lutherans and Eastern Orthodox have just as plausible interpretations of them as Catholics do. Others include but are certainly not limited to John Meyendorff, Jaroslav Pelikan, and J.N.D. Kelly. You think there are all kinds of interpretations of the Bible in Christendom nowadays? You haven’t seen anything yet when it comes to the church fathers 😛 Which leads me to my next point.

This idea that we can compare the Catholic denomination to all Protestant denominations as if we were really just comparing two Churches is fallacious. All the Protestant denominations do not form one big denomination, any more than all the non-Protestant Christian denominations (i.e., RCC, EO, OO etc) form one. So, if we do compare a single denomination (the RCC) to a group of denominations considered as a whole, we shouldn’t think our conclusions are very significant. For example, if I were to compare the Missouri Synod Lutheran denomination to all other Christian Churches combined (including the RCC), I’d walk away thinking this Lutheran denomination has far superior doctrinal unity than the rest of Christendom.

Finally, I can’t make sense of the claim that the early Church was Catholic. Did they hold similar beliefs? Sure, of the numerous denominations in early Christianity, there were a few that did look pretty similar to the RCC. Does that mean we should infer that the Catholic Church subsided in them? Absolutely not, no more than I should infer the Eastern Orthodox Church is Catholic simply because of all the similarities between the two Churches.
 
Hi tranc7,

Plenty of good arguments against sola scriptura and other Protestant nonsense have been offered here. In addition, I would recommend reading this article by Thomas Storck for a brief review of them.

Ultimately, though, to accept Protestantism, you have to believe that over a millennium’s worth of Christians got just about everything wrong, and that God allowed them to get everything wrong (and very likely be damned for it), until Martin Luther came along and set us all straight. If that’s not monstrous hubris, I don’t know what it is.

There’s also the problem, also alluded to here, that sola scriptura has not in fact given us the one true way of understanding the word of God. It’s given us hundreds, possibly even thousands, of different, conflicting hermeneutics. Is our God a God of chaos, confusion, and uncertainty? Because that’s exactly what Protestantism has given us.

Finally, there’s the problem of Protestantism’s intellectual origins. Here I’ll go into a little historical diatribe, because Luther’s original works were situated in a larger, centuries-old philosophical tradition. Thomas Aquinas and the other Scholastics were big on natural theology, i.e., efforts to discern God and the good through the exercise of reason. By and large they were successful: the Thomist synthesis of Christianity and Aristotelianism is profoundly integrative and coherent.

The problem is that this synthesis was unpopular in some intellectual circles of the day because Aristotle’s works had been reintroduced in the West by way of the Muslim philosopher Averroes, whom Aquinas cited frequently in Summa Theologica. As you know, this was in the late 13th century, when the Muslims had for some time been kicking Christendom’s butts in the Crusades. So this association was naturally unpopular. The Thomist synthesis was, moreover, very complicated and cumbersome, and there was a desire to return to a more sincere and authentic Christian practice, stripped down of its philosophical trappings.

So Ockham came along and basically declared the whole of classical essentialism false, allowing him to jettison all that philosophical junk and strip down Christian theology considerably. The problem is that classical essentialism is obviously true. Rejecting it and embracing Ockham’s nominalism leads you to the ridiculous conclusion that words like “man” and “cat” are completely meaningless, so that I am no more necessary related to my coworker than a tomato is to a skyscraper. In other words, it turned our understanding of creation from a rational, orderly, harmonious order of being into a total chaos, a mess of radically particularized entities floating freely through the void. It also destroys the basis for all knowledge, since it denies that intuition can be trusted. (Michael Allen Gillespie draws a straight line from Ockhamite nominalism through the ages to Nazism and Stalinism).

Luther was a nominalist, and the reason he believed sola scriptura was because he believed it was impossible for man to know anything about God except what God revealed to him directly (i.e., because reason was insufficient to discern truth). Hence, the Scriptures, which were the collected record of God’s revelation.

Again, the problem is that nominalism is false and ridiculous, and obviously so. If sola scriptura only makes sense in that context, it follows sola scriptura is bogus.

For more reading in this regard, I recommend (a) Michael Allen Gillespie’s The Theological Origins of Modernity and (b) Edward Feser’s The Last Superstition.
 
Also, regarding the salvation of people of other faiths, the Church teaches that such is in principle impossible. The Church alone possesses the fullness of salvific truth, entrusted it by God. It is possible for God, through methods unknown to us, the living, to save the virtuous in other faiths; but they are saved despite their faith, not because of it.

As for prayer, it’s good you’ve developed extemporaneous prayer, but nothing in Catholicism frowns on it. There’s no reason ever to feel compelled to stick to scripted prayers. I do, because I’m not good at extemporaneous prayer, but even I pray off the cuff sometimes.
 
*Hello Tranc!

What can you tell me about the Eucharist? Why is it the “source and summit” of our Catholic Faith?

God bless you
Cinette:)*
Although very long, the encyclical Ecclesia de Eucharistia will answer your question. You won’t find a better Eucharistic Bible study than this one. I actually printed it out and spent a good week or so studying it with highlighter in hand and Bible open.
 
Just finished reading that Storck article. I think his claims have long since been addressed by the Protestants. I’ll illustrate this with a few of them.

At the very beginning of the article, he claims sola scriptura is historically impossible because the Christian Church thrived long before the NT was written or even settled as canonical.

But, Protestants have consistently granted that the Apostles were infallible in their preaching and that the NT Church didn’t operate on sola scriptura. Their claim has always been that sola scriptura is how the Christian Church was supposed to function after the Apostles died. Further, their claim isn’t that the canonical scriptures are required for sola scriptura to be functional. Before the NT was written in part or en toto, the Church still had the OT and that’s all the Protestant needs.

Next, he characterizes the Protestant as claiming “whatever is not contained in Scripture is not to be believed.” This is so over the top I can’t believe he said this. Obviously, most of the Protestant’s beliefs aren’t contained in Scripture. Some of these beliefs could include President Obama should not have been elected, or that blue litmus paper turns red under acidic conditions etc. ad infinitum.

He’d want to revise this to something like “Whatever religious doctrine isn’t contained in Scripture is not to be believed.” But, of course, this isn’t what any sola scripturaist will claim. They believe numerous religious doctrines which aren’t contained in the Bible. That’s irrelevant to sola scriptura.

“The principle of sola Scriptura does not claim that the Bible is an exhaustive record of God’s special revelation to man, but that it is a sufficient record of all that is necessary to be believed for faith and practice.” - King, David T., and William Webster. Holy Scripture: The Ground and Pillar of Our Faith. Vol. 1. Battle Ground, WA: Christian Resources, 2001. p. 181

“The historical meaning of sola Scriptura, which served as the formal principle of the Reformation, is that Scripture alone is the only certain, infallible norm by which all theology, doctrine, creeds (beliefs), practice and morality of the Christian Church is to be regulated, in accordance with that which is 'either set down in Scripture, or by good and necessary consequence may be deduced from Scripture.” - ibid. p. 129

I’d highly recommend King and Webster’s 3 vol. series on sola scriptura. It analyzes all the contemporary objections to the doctrine (from guys like Sungenis etc.), and has an incredibly extensive discussion on the early Church fathers and their beliefs, translating many of their writings for the first time into English.
 
Hi Perplexity, I am a bit perplexed:D by your post, Can I respectfully ask if you can clear them up.

I don’t get the connection of the ECF’s getting studied by non-Catholic scholars as proof that they ECF’s did not have a Catholic view. Can you explain what the belief system of the scholars have to do with the ECF’s belief system? What am I missing here?
Are you saying that the ECF’s had a protestant belief system? Like what? can you show some examples?

Another thing that is perplexing is you write about numerous Christian denominations in early Christianity? I haven’t read of any denominations? What where they?

Sorry to ask so many questions, there are a lot of smart people here. I am not one of them.
 
Hi Perplexity, I am a bit perplexed:D by your post, Can I respectfully ask if you can clear them up.
Hi Carlos, sure, I’ll do my best.
I don’t get the connection of the ECF’s getting studied by non-Catholic scholars as proof that they ECF’s did not have a Catholic view. Can you explain what the belief system of the scholars have to do with the ECF’s belief system? What am I missing here?
My intention was to show that the ECF’s are open to different, plausible interpretations. Given all the non-Catholic individuals who have spent decades critically studying the ECF’s and walked away without thinking the ECF’s were Catholics we should be skeptical that we can go to the ECF’s and walk away thinking they were Catholic.
Are you saying that the ECF’s had a protestant belief system? Like what? can you show some examples?
No, that’d be anachronistic. But, I would say protestant belief systems derive much from the ECF’s. Interestingly, the reformers like Calvin relied on the ECF’s in significant ways to make their cases. (If you haven’t read some of Calvin’s public debates with Catholics, you should, he cites at length and from memory the ECF’s)
Another thing that is perplexing is you write about numerous Christian denominations in early Christianity? I haven’t read of any denominations? What where they?
As Raymond Brown argues in the introduction to Antioch & Rome: New Testament Cradles of Catholic Christianity, we can discern four distinct Christian sects (or denominations) within the NT period of Christianity alone!

The first sect of ultraconservatives was a group who insisted on full observance of the Mosaic Law, including circumcision, for those who believed in Jesus. Acts 15:5 describes them as a “sect of the Pharisees.”

The second sect of moderate conservatives insisted that one must observe some Jewish requirements in order to be a follower of Jesus, but needn’t undergo circumcision. For instance, in Acts 15:20, James imposes certain dietary laws.

The third sect of moderate liberals is best exemplified by Paul. Paul didn’t require observance of any Jewish law, but held it in high esteem, as Holy and just. His followers didn’t have to obey James’ command (1 Cor. 8).

The final sect of ultra liberals taught that there was no significance of Jewish law at all, now that Christ had come.

The followers of Jesus belonging to these sects had much in common, but had significant differences and we can recognize them.

But, I’ll let Ehrman get more to the point:

“The “proto-orthodox” Christians represent the forerunners (hence the prefix “proto”) of the group that became the dominant form of Christianity in latter centuries. When this group later acquired more converts than any of the others (say, by the beginning of the fourth century) and stifled its opposition, it claimed that its views had always been the majority position and that its rivals were, and always had been, “heretic,” who wilfully “chose” (the Greek root of the word “heresy”) to reject the “true belief” (the literal meaning of “orthodoxy”). We ourselves can use the term “proto-orthodox” only in retrospect, since the adherents of this position did not actually know that their views would become dominant, nor did they think of themselves as forerunners of believers to come later; like all the other groups of their day, they simply saw themselves as the true Christians.” Ehrman, Bart D. The New Testament: A Historical Introduction to the Early Christian Writings. 3rd ed. New York: Oxford UP, 2004. - pp. 6-7.

But, yeah you had the adoptionists, the marcionites, and gnostics. Tertullian became a montanist, you had the arians, the nestorians, the appolinarians, etc. etc.
 
Finally, I can’t make sense of the claim that the early Church was Catholic. Did they hold similar beliefs?

Sure, of the numerous denominations in early Christianity, there were a few that did look pretty similar to the RCC.
What numerous denominations???
Does that mean we should infer that the Catholic Church subsided in them? Absolutely not, no more than I should infer the Eastern Orthodox Church is Catholic simply because of all the similarities between the two Churches.
Why wouldn’t you infer such?

I would fully expect you to see that the Eastern Orthodox Church and the Catholic Church look very similarto the early Church precisely because they were the early Church (one and the same church in fact.)

I would also expect you to see very much of the Lutheran Church in the early church as well, but the further you move for the root, the less similarity I would expect to see between the branches.

What else should we expect?

Of course there are going to be similarities amongst all Christian populations, they all broke off from the same tree.

Of course you are going to find some early Christian writers with heretical views (we have those within the Catholic Church today.)

The preponderance of the evidence, however, clearly points to the early Christian Church being very much the Catholic.

Chuck
 
Just finished reading that Storck article. I think his claims have long since been addressed by the Protestants. I’ll illustrate this with a few of them.

At the very beginning of the article, he claims sola scriptura is historically impossible because the Christian Church thrived long before the NT was written or even settled as canonical.

But, Protestants have consistently granted that the Apostles were infallible in their preaching and that the NT Church didn’t operate on sola scriptura. Their claim has always been that sola scriptura is how the Christian Church was supposed to function after the Apostles died. Further, their claim isn’t that the canonical scriptures are required for sola scriptura to be functional. Before the NT was written in part or en toto, the Church still had the OT and that’s all the Protestant needs.

Next, he characterizes the Protestant as claiming “whatever is not contained in Scripture is not to be believed.” This is so over the top I can’t believe he said this. Obviously, most of the Protestant’s beliefs aren’t contained in Scripture. Some of these beliefs could include President Obama should not have been elected, or that blue litmus paper turns red under acidic conditions etc. ad infinitum.

He’d want to revise this to something like “Whatever religious doctrine isn’t contained in Scripture is not to be believed.” But, of course, this isn’t what any sola scripturaist will claim. They believe numerous religious doctrines which aren’t contained in the Bible. That’s irrelevant to sola scriptura.

“The principle of sola Scriptura does not claim that the Bible is an exhaustive record of God’s special revelation to man, but that it is a sufficient record of all that is necessary to be believed for faith and practice.” - King, David T., and William Webster. Holy Scripture: The Ground and Pillar of Our Faith. Vol. 1. Battle Ground, WA: Christian Resources, 2001. p. 181

“The historical meaning of sola Scriptura, which served as the formal principle of the Reformation, is that Scripture alone is the only certain, infallible norm by which all theology, doctrine, creeds (beliefs), practice and morality of the Christian Church is to be regulated, in accordance with that which is 'either set down in Scripture, or by good and necessary consequence may be deduced from Scripture.” - ibid. p. 129

I’d highly recommend King and Webster’s 3 vol. series on sola scriptura. It analyzes all the contemporary objections to the doctrine (from guys like Sungenis etc.), and has an incredibly extensive discussion on the early Church fathers and their beliefs, translating many of their writings for the first time into English.
No Apostle lived past the 1st Century, meaning ALL their teachings were passed by letter, word of mouth, Tradition and the fact there was a ‘go to’ person and collegiate of persons for confirmation.

About 200-300years later, there were some 200 letters to be sifted through for ALL were considered ‘scriptures’ in their own right. at this point, this renders Sola Scriptura into myth unless they include all of these!

The rest of the post, based on the above, having lost it’s base,…

:cool:
 
Hey everyone,

I have been on and off this site reading threads for sometime. Let me start off by saying that I was born and raised Catholic. I am currently 18 years old and am a freshman college student at a Nazarene college. I am no longer and am currently not sure what denomination I will “choose” I guess I should put it because I’m in a little situation.

I really became active in my Catholic faith throughout high school. I recited prayers, prayed the Rosary, attended all of the masses, went to confession, etc. However, a time came during the summer before I attended college. My father separated from the Catholic church and said how he didn’t understand why Catholics prayed to saints or Mary when the Bible states we shouldn’t worship any other than God, purgatory, sacraments, and the usual things that Protestants argue against. I was strong in my Catholic faith (or so I thought) so I told him that it was what we should do. However, I realized I had no proof to back it up. I suddenly realized other things too. I grew up in private Catholic schools since pre school and found out that I was sort of brainwashed. I knew what we believed but I didn’t know why. I also realized I didn’t have a personal relationship with God and that it was robotic how I was practicing my faith. It went downhill from there. I didn’t seem to get a lot out of mass and saw it as repetitive and robotic too. So I took a break and experimented with a different church. It was a Bible Church and I loved it and continued to attend it. My prayer life became more genuine instead of recited prayers and I was getting a lot more out of the bible church services. It was weird at first because I was a die hard Catholic. So I separated from the faith before I enrolled at my college. My questions are why do Catholics believe what they believe? Why is sola scriptura not ok? Do Catholics believe they are the only true faith and that other denominations won’t go to heaven? I’m just concerned because I didn’t have a spiritual mentor to guide me through Catholicsm and I may have rushed out of it. I’m not downgrading the faith whatsoever, I like a lot of aspects of it and I just have questions about others. Thanks for your time and I hope you can understand where I’m coming from.
Not to worry! You examplify the common story of MOST Catholics, and I would list myself among them, but I did not leave.

The Church cannot teach Catholicism in a lifetime! Yeah, a lifetime! If you study the fabric of Catholicism, you will find the seamless mesh between temporal and Divine matter, physical and intangible. No surprises there, since God has sovereign over everything seen and dreamed.

What The Church teaches and you now possess, as every Catholic that came through the formative years possess, are the BASICS of Faith. You may not think so nor undersatnd so, but you will find that you can spend the next 20 - 30years of your life in the wasteland of worldly ‘faiths’ and understanding, BUT you will always recall what you now know! Subconsciously, you will measure EVERYTHING you experience against that knowledge, and sometimes that knowledge will be found wanting. Some will discard (temporarily) that knowledge for a ‘new’ one; others will search out ‘newer’ knowledge; and some will come back and RE-EXAMINE what they left, to see whether they have is what they THOUGHT it was! You are ALREADY here, looking and re-checking!

ALL will come Home!..at some point.

:cool:
 
Thanks Perplexity, I appreciate the thought and time you took to write a response.
I am familiar with Philip Schaff by the way. I often read excerpts of his work.

I get what you were trying to say now. So if I could just restate, non-Catholic scholars upon their research of the ECF’s did not conclude that they were Catholic.

May I ask a two part question that just occurred to me?

Would you agree that a Catholic can generally be defined to hold the following beliefs?

1, The Real Presence of Christ in the Eucharist hence the center of Worship is the Eucharist
2. Belief in Papal Primacy
3. Belief in Baptismal regeneration
4. Belief in the Authority of the Church
5. Salvation by Faith and Cooperation in God’s Grace

(This is not meant to be comprehensive of course but basically highlighting what is distinctly Catholic).

So did Schaff in his research conclude that the ECF’s did not hold these beliefs? Can you show me? that would be fascinating.

See I had to look up anachronistic…told you I wasn’t very smart…😃

So what would you consider to be protestant belief systems? And which ones derive the ECF’s? .

Thank you for suggesting about reading about Calvin’s debates. (I am in the middle of of reading Eastern Orthodox dogmatic books that were suggested to me in another post)

I have never read Brown and I am not questioning him but may I humbly say that the judaizers found in Acts were dealt with by the Apostles themselves. This was not a denomination in the modern sense of the word but rather a sect which the Apostles quickly determined was out of sync with what Jesus taught them.

As a matter of fact, the Council of Jerusalem which dealt with the Judaizers is written about in the Acts 15 which you cite as your proof as the moderate conservative sect. Read Act 15, this was no moderate conservative sect but the apostles themselves!!!

I read the 1 Cor 8 which you cite as proof of the moderate liberal sect, this is basically Paul’s teaching which I would argue did not teach anything different than what the rest of the apostles were teaching.

Ehrman’s quote was very interesting…but I am having trouble understanding why you chose to cite it. Did you cite it to argue against the necessity for the Early Christians to defend their beliefs against heretics?

You really do not have to answer my comments about the early sects(unless you want to), that is not really what intrigues me about your post.

What I really want to see is where Schaff (or the other scholars that you cited) concluded that the ECF’s did not hold to the Eucharist as the Center of worship or the other core beliefs that I listed above.
 
I’d like to add my 2 cents too, because nothing irritates me more than the implication by other “Bible based” churches that Catholics don’t read the Bible, don’t love the Bible, don’t follow it, whatever. I’m not saying that you are saying that, but many churches make that assertion. I’d like to call to your attention that on any given day, Catholics all over the world are hearing the same Old Testament reading, Psalm, New Testament letters and Gospel. The Catholic Church is the only church (along with Orthodox, I’m guessing) where there is such a systematic reading of the Bible.
To play Devil’s Lawyer, the confessing Lutherans follow a very similar cycle of readings to Catholics. Nevertheless they don’t apply what they read (namely about working out one’s salvation) as consistently as Catholics do. I think that high-church Anglicans/Anglo-Catholics do as well.
 
And you should never discuss Catholicism as just another denomination. It is not a denomination at all. It is the One, Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church. Do not pretend that others are a substitute - they are not. They don’t administer the grace giving sacraments by which we are saved (other than the Orthodox).
Agreed there. By definition, Catholicism is not a denomination. “Denomination” is Latin for “take a new name” or the act of so doing, being given a new name - the new name is always the result of schism. (Orthodox are an irregular case, as Christianity was called “orthodox” before the schism was consummated, but was called “universal”, “the Church”, and “the Way” still earlier; they have valid sacraments, but some few [truly few] deviant doctrines: “orthodox” was a name taken only in response to heresy - even when taking their self-appellation, “Orthodox Catholicism”, as the “Orthodox” was added - so, by the strict definition, it is a denomination, but it is still a Church, unlike the “invisible Churches” of Protestantism.)

No other Church outside of Catholicism has the fullness of the Truth and the sacraments. The Orthodox churches have the sacraments, but not the fullness of the Truth. The other denominations have neither, although some come close in doctrine (high-church Anglicans and Anglo-Catholics). Almost all claim to have sacraments, at least those which believe in sacraments (Lutherans, Methodists and Anglicans), but an invalidly ordained minister can speak the perfect form of the words of consecration and epiclesis to confect the eucharist and he still does nothing more than babble over bread and wine. Sacraments, as have been stated, are the heart of the practice and earthly expression of the faith.
 
“The “proto-orthodox” Christians represent the forerunners (hence the prefix “proto”) of the group that became the dominant form of Christianity in latter centuries. When this group later acquired more converts than any of the others (say, by the beginning of the fourth century) and stifled its opposition, it claimed that its views had always been the majority position and that its rivals were, and always had been, “heretic,” who wilfully “chose” (the Greek root of the word “heresy”) to reject the “true belief” (the literal meaning of “orthodoxy”). We ourselves can use the term “proto-orthodox” only in retrospect, since the adherents of this position did not actually know that their views would become dominant, nor did they think of themselves as forerunners of believers to come later; like all the other groups of their day, they simply saw themselves as the true Christians.” Ehrman, Bart D. The New Testament: A Historical Introduction to the Early Christian Writings. 3rd ed. New York: Oxford UP, 2004. - pp. 6-7.

But, yeah you had the adoptionists, the marcionites, and gnostics. Tertullian became a montanist, you had the arians, the nestorians, the appolinarians, etc. etc.
Likewise, the Bauer-Ehrman hypothesis (their view of earliest Christianity as a bunch of sects, with the “proto-orthodox” winning out by political chance: named after Ehrman and the same Bauer who wrote what has today become the BDAG, an analytical koine Greek dictionary, and was the first to propose this nonsense) has been discredited. For a popular-level reading on the topic (as ecclesiastical history becomes as complex as philosophy at the academic level), I recommend Kostenberger’s Heresy and Orthodoxy.

“Orthodoxy” also means “right praise” or “right thinking”, not “true belief”. What intellectual dishonesty and legerdemain to alter the translation so subtly as to change the connotation (if it’s in an academic book, it’s not so bad, but one has to watch out as the man is notorious for similar tricks in popular speaking or debating). “[H]airesis” does mean “choice”.

Additionally, I would think that using Ehrman’s presuppositions and methodology, one would have to conclude that gnosticism predated Christianity, and arose in the context of Alexandrian Judaism. Philo shows signs of a low form of this.
 
(Please Note: This uploaded content is no longer available.)
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top