Struggling with converting to Catholicism

[deMontfort]

No, instead, it is considered a “fallible collection of infallible books”. What a logical absurdity!

Calvinist theologian RC Sproul came right out and used those very words lol…

 

[steve-b]

steve-b:

Technically, Ignatius was bishop before the NT was written. When Ignatius died, in ~107, there was no NT canon. The canon, of (27 books of the NT) hadn’t been canonized yet. That final canon came in 381, at the council of Rome, under Pope Damasus I.

There goes the sola scriptura argument down the drain.

I’m sorry but there was a N.T. word from God. It may not have been collected into one volume and sanctioned by pope Damasus at Rome, but all of the gospels and epistles were divinely circulated during this time and was the word of God before the ink dried on the parchment.

Well I guess you need to convince all of Protestantism of your opinion. After all, your protestant bible is called scripture lite. 7 books short.

tgGodsway:

The sola scriptura argument is not only valid but exciting to defend in light of those who want to squelch it’s significance.

There WAS no NT without the Catholic Church defining it. For almost 400 years, there was no official 73 book canon.

How can there be sola scriptura? That only came with Protestantism in the 16th century because if that revolt

As a bit of history,

Even the heretic and father of Protestantism, Martin Luther, admitted

1. "We concede–as we must–that so much of what they [the Catholic Church] is true: that the papacy has God’s word and the office of the apostles, and that we have received Holy Scriptures,Baptism, the Sacrament, and the pulpit from them. What would we know of these if it were not for them?” (Sermon on the Gospel of John, chaps. 14-16 (1537), in vol. 24 of Luther’s Works, [St. Louis, Mo.: Concordia, 1961], p. 304).”

He was a bit of a hypocrit on that. He was the one who removed 7 books from the OT and tried to eliminate James, Jude, Revelations, from the NT

Without the promises of Jesus to His One Holy Catholic Apostolic Church, there would be no NT.

 

[steve-b]

No, instead, it is considered a “fallible collection of infallible books”. What a logical absurdity!

Calvinist theologian RC Sproul came right out and used those very words lol……

True. good grief!!!

 

[pablope]

I was raised Protestant and recently discovered the Catholic Church was the one created by the apostles. I want to join and go through the RCIA, but I have some questions/concerns that are preventing me from fully committing. I hope that these can be answered so that I can understand them better.

-I see so many videos of Catholics walking around and carrying these massive statues of Mary that are adorned with different clothing and golden fixtures. Almost as if they are worshiping them. I understand that Mary said yes to God, but so did Jesus when he chose to go through with his crucifixion. Was Jesus “yes” not so much greater than Mary’s? Why not have these large processions carrying a statue of Jesus instead of Mary?

In addition to what has been provided, in the OT, David danced before the Ark of the Covenant…the Ark was also paraded around and the Israelites bowed before it…where they worshiping the Ark itself?

Veneration of relics has Jewish/OT roots: Relics, Saints, and the Assumption of Mary | Called to Communion
The first real blow to this interpretation came when I read Peter Brown’s book, The Cult of Saints: Its Rise and Function in Latin Christianity.
Brown challenged my view that the place of saints and relics in the church was a mere holdover from paganism, and that the practice was somehow peripheral to true Christianity. Instead, Brown painted a picture of ancient Christianity and paganism in which relics were indispensable to the former, and repulsive to the latter. Far from a holdover from paganism, the place of relics in the Church appeared as something intensely Jewish, Hebraic, and Old Testament. Pagans, like Julian-the-Apostate, found the practice revolting and legislated against it. (Paganism, with its notions of ritual purity, had strictly delimited the realm of divine worship and neatly separated it from the realm of corpses and the dead.)

• Mary’s immaculate conception has been explained as though she was born free of original sin because of the merits of Jesus future birth, death, and resurrection. That God kept her free of sin because of her going to give birth to Jesus. However, what if she would have said no to the request from God to give birth to Jesus?

Have you given it a thought…that God’s ways are perfect? If Mary had said no, and God had a plan B…then God’s way would not have been perfect. God did not have a plan B.

She would have been given the gift of freedom from original sin for no reason. Some may argue that God saw the future and knew she would say yes and that’s why she was kept free of original sin.

In the gospel account, Mary is asked…not ordered, if I recall…and she accepted, thereby God still respected her free will.

 

[Wannano]

tgGodsway:

It may not have been collected into one volume and sanctioned by pope Damasus at Rome, but all of the gospels and epistles were divinely circulated during this time and was the word of God before the ink dried on the parchment.

During what time was that? Of course we will agree that Scripture was divinely inspired immediately, but collecting, preserving, and promulgating it was another matter. there were a number of writings claiming to be inspired that did not make the NT. Why not? They were also passed around and read.

I have studied the doctrine of Sola Scriptura also, tgG. I was clearly taught that “it assumes a canon”. that is because no one who espouses it wants to credit the CC with discerning it! If God was able to guide the CC rightly in this, then what else might they have right?

No, instead, it is considered a “fallible collection of infallible books”. What a logical absurdity!

The sola scriptura argument is not only valid but exciting to defend in light of those who want to squelch it’s significance.

I think we can see the significance clearly. It has created divisions in Christendom that were unprecedented. Each person interprets according to their experience and education (or lack of it) and we end up with as many ecclesial communities as there are belly buttons.

You mean there are only 40,000 belly buttons? I thought every human had one! What one doesn’t learn on CAF!!

 

[KnowledgeSeeker]

The sola scriptura argument is not only valid but exciting to defend in light of those who want to squelch it’s significance.

I must admit that I am still currently Protestant in technicality, as I haven’t gone through RCIA yet, but do intend to do so. I was a Protestant for over 25 years. I was raised in a Protestant Church, went to a Protestant school, and sang songs, that I realize now, were idolatrous in a way when you think about it. “The B I B L E, yes that’s the book for me. I stand alone, on the word of God, the B I B L E.” How can any Protestant criticize a Catholic for simply having a statue of Mary, a Rosary, a pendant with a picture of a Saint on it, or any other item that is dear to their hearts and for them is a reminder of their faith, when they ( the Protestants) have songs like that and put so much faith and emphasis on the Bible. Many Protestants say “sola scriptura” (by scripture alone) and I used to believe this as well. The problem I ran into was this. Many times when I read my Bible, I would ask, “What did those poor Christians do during the hundreds of years prior to having a collected work called the Bible as we do now? How did they know the proper way to live as a Christian? How did they know all of the laws and teachings of the apostles and founding fathers of the Church (the Catholic Church) when there was no guarantee that the person who was sharing the Gospel with them would even have copies of all of the available letters and teachings?” I asked myself these questions over and over. I knew that Jesus wouldn’t forsake them. That is how I began learning the true history of the Church and of the Bible. This is how I found out that although the Bible is for sure a powerful tool for the Christian faith, it is still just that, a tool. And before it’s collected works being placed together, the Christian faith was passed on and spread across the world VERBALLY and through tradition. I no longer believe or accept “sola scriptura” when there is so much additional history and information available from the records kept by THE ORIGINAL Church, the Catholic Church, that have been passed down for thousands of years since the very beginning of Christianity.

 

[tweedlealice]

Hi Max.
I agree w the statues & picture of family. What happens, I think, sometimes is desperate actions of believers to touch & venerate. Especially, older generations. WHY would that be?! I feel, we hunger for God, for all the right reasons. But, our lives have so much drama in them. We want all things healed( bodies, Spirits, relationships).
We reach to MARY, asking her to continue our prayer in heaven to Jesus. But, in shortening the correct sentence, we ask her to heal me. OR St. Teresa…I’m afraid, some in behavior, border idolism. But, their Spirits know the truth and God understands our hunger for Him. It takes a lot to keep the structure of a passionate prayer routine. DEAR FATHER, I PRAISE YOU & THANK YOU. THANK YOU,JESUS FOR YOUR SACRIFICES, FOR US. I’m humbled by Your pain & LOVE for us. I pray on CAF. Please hear my prayers & provide answers for the needy. Thanking You for Your Answers, for the Glory of the Father, in the name of Jesus, by the power of the Holy Spirit. Add in prayers to Saints: Dear St. Teresa, could you pray for my needs
(???) & keep offering my prayer before the Father’s throne.
In church, the real presence is in the tabernacle. But, ppl will bow or genuflect before the cross. We all mean well. God, understands, I’m sure. We all believe in Him. We know we are praying to HIM! Not statues or pictures. They are just focus points. Hunger to touch a statue is still hunger to reach God! Looking at this from the outside, it could look like Idolotry.
I hope this helps explain, what knowledge seeker is asking. God only! Mary and Saints love & respect. Only asking prayers to be continued in heaven. God Answers prayer.
In Christ’s Love Tweedlealice

 

[tweedlealice]

Blessings,
I’m impressed, w the deep dialogue,in which you are sharing,w lilypdress& guanophore. My goodness, I’m sheltered from such depth. I THOUGHT I was DEEP. You know, the main tenet of Salvation is Jesus Christ. It is clear, unwritten Hx of the Church & linear Hx’s, such as Rome, the Essenes, that He lived! Oral tradition of the Apostles & first church, continued His story of His suffering & death. The scrolls of the gospels & epistles, clarify His message & birth of His church (us). It is TRUE! What kind of a Con man,would go through such torture, to deliver us & it’s a fake??? No one achieved any worldly rewards. No big church buildings! No large volume of money! Just a promise of life after life & the evidence of a great love, to sacrifice much to bring us home, to this Father of great Love who wants us…
How many decades, would go by, holding on to a story, of great promise, without falling apart under persecution??!! After awhile, ppl would fall away! It’s taken 2000yrs before we are falling apart.
Mary’s sinless State is nice to believe. It’s highly probable. God would know her answer! So, did that make her YES, a forced YES?? It gives me a headache, ppl. She was 14 yo, in a primitive time. Her naïveté made her vulnerable to her circumstances. This was a heavy journey,on which, to travel. We can assume, somewhere, either at birth or before conception, she was removed of original sin. Jews were taking baths for lots of things. Maybe, another sprinkle of water, cleared the Original sin??
(maybe a joke). I realize, John the Baptist, was the first to water Baptize. He was after the conception & birth. So, original sin, is real. Jesus, being God, alone, has enough power to erase the OS, during her conception. OS was gone w conception or before conception. OR could Gabriel, once she said,”YES!” removed the OS?? Angels have powers, if approved & commisioned by God. Back to the simple beauty of this reality. Some details are overkill, guys!
You know, some ppl say,”I’m lost! I have to go find myself!” Then, they get really lost along the way… Just sayin’
Now, I’m a cradle Charismatic, Catholic. I sojourned into ASSEMBLIES OF GOD, for a richer relationship w the Holy Spirit. I know what will be said, here. I defend our Catholicism as the first church, started by the Apostles. Empowered by the Holy Spirit. Watered by the blood of the martyrs. But, is it a perfect church! NO! Has it sinned? YES, Oh Father, YES!
Some of auxiliary beliefs are oral tradition. Mary’s dormition. WHY? Her grave can’t be found…Her perpertual virginity? IDK! Does it matter to me? No. Her virginity up to Jesus matters. Was Joseph an older widower, w children?? Does it changed Jesus’s life, death, message=NO! He would be born of a virgin!
Funny, I just saw where this is argued. The word, alum, meaning “virgin”/ “young woman” Both are virgins! Married=different word! GENESIS:3-16. Proves it to me. But, we lose peace w this.
3200 spaces coming up. FIND YOUR SAVIOR &SETTLE INTO HIS LOVING RELATIONSHIP.
IN CHRIST’S LOVE
TWEEDLEALICE

 

[Pup7]

That is a great post. I too as a convert remember that song from eons ago. As I grew I wondered about it then and I definitely wonder about it now. I never understood the five solas or how that was possible, either. I had a lot of questions that I mulled over for many years.

The more I’m learning about my new faith, the more I think I was really more Catholic in a lot of ways than I ever was anything else. (My dad was Catholic, my mom is Protestant.)

 

[hope]

Is it really? We lost so many forum rules, I thought the new rules permitted such insults and calumny against the Catholic faith? In the olden days, there was an expectation that members would not post detraction and lies about Catholicism, but nowadays it seems common. @tgGodsway has significant hostility against the Catholic faith and his Reformed insults often leak out through the posts!

It may be our fault for not flagging.

 

[Vico]

…
Was Jesus “yes” not so much greater than Mary’s?
Why not have these large processions carrying a statue of Jesus instead of Mary?
…
How is this not considered idol worship since they are putting their faith and belief in the statue itself?
Why is it so important to touch this statue when it is only a material thing that was created by the hands of men here on earth?
…
However, what if she would have said no to the request from God to give birth to Jesus?
…
However, would that not also mean that God chose her because he knew she would say yes?
If that were the case would that not downplay the veneration and adoration that she is given for saying yes to God since she would have simply been hand selected by God himself because he knew she would say yes?

Does it not seem even more plausible and even a greater feat that she instead was not given the gift of freedom from original sin, but that she lived such a perfect life to God’s standards that she found favor with God and this is why she was approached by Him to give birth to His son?
…
However, why is it not considered just as easy for God to keep Jesus free from original sin through His conception just as it was thought that God did for Mary?
…
If Mary needed to be free from original sin to keep Jesus from it since he was to be born of her womb, would that not also mean that Mary’s mother would have needed to be free of original sin as well to keep Mary from it and then Mary’s Grandmother to keep Mary’s mother from it and so on and so forth?
…
Would it not make more sense that Jesus conception was indeed the immaculate one and not Mary’s?

Which consent is greater, that of one with the Beatific Vision (Jesus) of of the one without it (Virgin Mary)? It is by the grace of God that we can even remain free from sin.

It was fitting that the Virgin Mary was conceived free of sin. Jesus was free from sin by divine nature, not because the Virgin Mary was conceived free of sin.

There are processions with statues of Jesus (especially in Manilla).

It is not idol worship because the statue is not thought of as a god, but a symbol representing one that is worthy of veneration.

The Blessed Virgin Mary is The Sign, she always points to her son Jesus Christ, her salvation. She is an ideal example of a human Saint with only human nature.

If the Blessed Virgin said no, then Jesus Christ would not have been born through her. Her consent is free will exercise, so it is not something to be downplayed but an example to others.

Since Jesus Christ is the person of the Word he is essentially different than any other with human nature, so the conception is essentially different because Jesus Christ soul and body are assumed by the Word, however this is not the case for The Blessed Virgin.

Individuals may feel inspired to touch the statue, but others may not, so the importance of touch is only subjective.

 

[guanophore]

Calvinist theologian RC Sproul came right out and used those very words lol…

Yes, I read plenty of Sproul in seminary.

It was not just anyone twice removed. The divine record made it clear, hold fast what the founding apostles of the faith said.

Yes. SAcred Tradition is the teaching of the Apostles, just as is the contents of the NT.

Be careful to examine, verify and re-affirm, any other persons preaching after them. why? false doctrine was everywhere.

Yes! One of the standards by which this judgment was made is sacred tradition.

You mean there are only 40,000 belly buttons? I thought every human had one! What one doesn’t learn on CAF!!

Yes, it is a bit of an exaggeration, I grant you. I don’t go for the 40,ooo either, but you get my point. The lack of an external standard leaves every individual wide open.

It may be our fault for not flagging.

There is really no point in flagging if there is no longer a rule that our faith needs to be respected and not disparaged.

 

[otrrl]

you are not required to participate in a procession with a statue. That represents a type of spirituality that might not be a good fit for you.

There are Catholics who have different “levels” or “types” of spirituality, and you are under no obligation to follow those. You don’t ever have to say a rosary, for example, or pray a novena – until such time as you understand those devotions and choose to participate in them.

Catholicism centers on Christ, but it holds Mary dearly as his sorrowful Mother.

Mary’s “immaculate conception” is a confusing dogma of the Church. What difference did it make in Biblical times and what difference does it make now? Is it even possible that she was free of original sin? Well, yes. Adam and Even were created without original sin, although they later committed the original sin. So, God gave Mary a disposition to full participate with his Will for the salvation of the world. Scripture says she was a virgin when Jesus was born, and before the nativity and after the nativity.

I think the virginity of Mary corresponds to the gospel account that she conceived as a result of the overshadowing of the Holy Spirit, so Jesus was a divine nature and a human nature.This helps us to focus on who Mary is and what prophecies were fulfilled in her, as indicated in Mt’s gospel.

I have difficulty with Mary because I had a difficult time growing up with my own mother. It was a dysfunctional relationship. I say the rosary and pray to Mary out of faith in the teaching and tradition of the Church.

 

[anon10271182]

Yes, only latria is worship. And as the poster said, it is infinitely greater than dulia or hyperdulia, just as our Triune God is infinitely greater than even the most exalted of his creatures ( Mary).

 

[anon10271182]

Where on Earth do you come by “divine Mary?”

 

[anon10271182]

Mary’s later virginity is opposed by many Protestants using a narrow interpretation of the word for “brother,” etc. and little else. They ignore logic and reduce the holiness of both Mary and her Son by arguing that she must have gone on to have sexual relations with Joseph. Joseph, who knew his wife was the Mother of God!
Yes, the lengths some Protestants go to in order to besmirch Mary’s purity is astounding.
We don’t worship Mary. We venerate her. Mary, ever virgin. 'Nuff said.

 

[Sursum-Corda]

To the person who started this topic.

Mary, the Mother of God, was preserved from the stain of original sin when she was conceived in her mothers womb.
This was a singular and unique privilege accorded to her by God almighty.

In addition Mary had total free will to reject Gods request to become the Mother of Christ.

She gave her yes to God, her fiat, in the words “Be it done unto me according to thy will”

Mary,s YES , set in train the redemption of the human race.

In a sense Mary is a co-redeemer with her Son and provides a uniquely human channel to help communicate
with Him

That is why she is so important and pivotal in Catholicism

 

[hope]

There is really no point in flagging if there is no longer a rule that our faith needs to be respected and not disparaged.

Forum Rules

There are still rules
CONDUCT RULES
4. Do not incite animosity towards anyone, especially the clergy.
5. Non-Catholics are welcome to participate but must be respectful of the faith of the Catholics participating on the board. Catholics must be respectful of the legitimate religious preferences and practices of their fellow Catholics.
CONTENT RULES
3.Inappropriate, offensive, blasphemous posts, user names, profile entries, pictures, linked content, etc. are not permitted.

 

[po18guy]

TG, once again, are you here to actually contribute to the conversation, or simply to regurgitate anti-Catholic blather that you have learned from the ignorant who should know better? I remind you of the forum rules.

Are you asking to be banned? That would be a shame, as you are far from the truth where you now stand.

 

[lilypadrees]

tgGodsway:

I am okay with that as long as whatever tradition Ignatius is responsible for, is in sink with holy scripture, the divine record.

Actually you need a dictionary or you need to get your spell check in sync

Actually, the subtle truth of his views came out in the way he spelled “sink” instead of the correct “sync.”