struggling with mary

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angell1 said:
hi everyone.

i still seem to be struggling with mary.

i have no problem asking for her intercession, i think i understand and believe all the marian doctrines and how they fit in with Jesus.

but the problem i’m having is, have we maybe gone a little too far?

here is a page of marian prayers.

marypages.com/PrayerstoMary.htm

i know we don’t worship her but with some of these, the line really seems to be blurred. our life, hope and sweetness. devoting our entire selves to her, obtain for us salvation, EtC.

i don’t know, i’m just really having some issues with this. i feel like maybe some of it has gone a little too far.

and the bible is really not much help on this, Jesus is relatively silent on his mother, doesn’t really honour much in scripture with a ton of illustrious titles. i have heard a ton of protestant accusations on this and i have to admit, it’s a little hard to defend.

has anyone else ever had issues with this? thanks
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Rather than addressing your question from an ‘academic’ or even theological perspective, I’m going to address it personally.

For reference–my wife is evangelical protestant. To her and her people, Mary is like repellant. It freaks her and her family, and all her people, out. Truly freaks them out.

Let me put it to you this way–Mary is the Mother of Chirst; yet they can not, to save their lives, formulate a positive comment about her, that isn’t immediately nagated with “but…”.

As in, “Mary was the Jesus’s mother…BUT that’s all”.

or “…BUT she was also a sinner”

or “…BUT she’s just another human being”

or “…BUT she had relations with Joseph, and had other children…”

I volunteer this for reference.

Now, here’s what brought be BACK to Mary:

When I looked at the Christians throughout history, what the Church Fathers had to say, as well as what contemporary Christians say…I realized that my aspirational peers were Catholic, and many/most held the Virgin Mary in the highest esteem.

I chose to–in fact, continuously choose to–strive to be like them.

As with so much of my search into protestantism, it almost always came down to:

The Church Fathers and the Saints (never mind the Popes) on one side; and the Reformers on the other. (e.g.–wrt—the Real Presence/Eucharist; confession; celibate priesthood; male priesthood; Baptism; basically the sacraments…).

So, I suggest stepping back, and asking yourself–as a Christian, who do you want to seek to emulate, and be more like?

***St. Joseph, St. John, St. Polycarp, St. Ireneaus, St. Cyril of Jerusalem, St. Jerome, St. Ambrose, St. Augustine, St. Thomas Aquinas, St. Dominic, St. Francis of assisi, St. Basil, St. Teresa of Avila, St. John of the Cross, St. Thomas Moore, St. Therese of Lisseux, Pope Paul VI, Blessed Mother of Calcutta, Blessed Pope John Paul II, Pope Benedict XVI, Pope Francis, just to name a few that come to mind…
–or–

Martin Luther, John Calvin, “Drs.” Spurgeon Sr &/Jr., Billy Graham, Oral Roberts, Jimmy Swaggart, Jim and Tammy Faye Bakker, Jerry Fallwell, Pat Robertson, or Joel Osteen…

Then ask yourself where each/they stood, vis a vis the Virgin Mary.

NOTE: worth noting–before the ‘Reform movement’ fully lost its way (i.e. the movement that would stray and later be named --rather self-servingly, and inaccurately imo, as the Reformation) Martin Luther–(even AFTER he had been defrocked and excommunicated), made many statements that were very flattering to the Virgin Mary–read into that, what you will.

But, for good measure, here is a quote from St. Irenaeus:
“For as Eve was seduced by the word of an angel to flee from God, having rebelled against His Word, so Mary by the word of an angel received the glad tidings that she would bear God by obeying his Word. The former was seduced to disobey God, but the latter was persuaded to obey God, so that the Virgin Mary might become the advocate of the virgin Eve. As the human race was subjected to death through [the act of] a virgin, so it was saved by a virgin.”
Irenaeus, Against Heresies, V:19,1(A.D. 180),in ANF,I:547
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^^^follow up:

As a side note, my ‘flirtations’ with protestantism drove me back to sincere Marian devotion, because it occurred to me that the inherent protestant aversion to Marian devotion, contrasted with the marian devotion demonstrated by so many saints and popes as indicated above, seemed to betray a latent truth about Mary–Mary seems to repel the untrue and insincere. IOW, she acts like a gate keeper.

Hence the phrase “to Christ, through Mary”. If you can be like Mary, if you can truly love Mary as your mother…you can love like Chirst, and love Christ.

If not…you have to ask yourself–what is it about Mary, the Lord’s beloved mother, whom He bequeathed to us at the foot of the cross…that I’m having trouble with?

Because nothing about Mary drives us away from Christ; she directs us to Him.

FWIW.
 
angell1 said:
hi everyone.

i still seem to be struggling with mary.

i have no problem asking for her intercession, i think i understand and believe all the marian doctrines and how they fit in with Jesus.

but the problem i’m having is, have we maybe gone a little too far?

here is a page of marian prayers.

marypages.com/PrayerstoMary.htm

i know we don’t worship her but with some of these, the line really seems to be blurred. our life, hope and sweetness. devoting our entire selves to her, obtain for us salvation, EtC.

i don’t know, i’m just really having some issues with this. i feel like maybe some of it has gone a little too far.

and the bible is really not much help on this, Jesus is relatively silent on his mother, doesn’t really honour much in scripture with a ton of illustrious titles. i have heard a ton of protestant accusations on this and i have to admit, it’s a little hard to defend.

has anyone else ever had issues with this? thanks
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Hi Angel,

You don’t have to pray (ask for her help not worship) to Mary if you don’t want to. The Catholic Church stresses that we should love what Jesus loved and hate what Jesus hated. Jesus loved his mother perfectly so you cannot love her more than Jesus. In the Hail Holy Queen prayer that you mention, “Our sweetness and our hope” we need to remember that she as Immaculate is what we hope to be like and will be like if we are in heaven as we will be without sin. The Hail Holy Queen offers honor to her and puts requests to her to help us by bringing us to Jesus. If you follow Mary she will ALWAYS lead you to her son and no where else as she is Holy.

The Church condemned worshiping Mary as a goddess back in the 4th centry. It was a heresy known as Collyridianism, in which the adherents treated the Virgin Mary as a goddess. The Catholic Church continues to teach that we should honor Mary but save our worship for God alone. None of the Catholic prayers approved by the Church worship Mary but they do give her honor. If we love someone we honor, respect and have a certain affection and devotion to them.

I highly recommend Scott Hahn’s books on Mary especially Hail Holy Queen as he brings much factual information in terms we can understand as to the what and how Catholics treat Mary.

Further, Jesus gave his mother to us at the cross shortly before he died on the cross. Satan will always attack that which Jesus says and does. Thus, expect Satan to use people and anything else he can imagine to condemn any and all beliefs that the Catholic Church teaches as truth.

God bless.
 
Goya said:
^^^follow up:

As a side note, my ‘flirtations’ with protestantism drove me back to sincere Marian devotion, because it occurred to me that the inherent protestant aversion to Marian devotion, contrasted with the marian devotion demonstrated by so many saints and popes as indicated above, seemed to betray a latent truth about Mary–Mary seems to repel the untrue and insincere. IOW, she acts like a gate keeper.

Hence the phrase “to Christ, through Mary”. If you can be like Mary, if you can truly love Mary as your mother…you can love like Chirst, and love Christ.

If not…you have to ask yourself–what is it about Mary, the Lord’s beloved mother, whom He bequeathed to us at the foot of the cross…that I’m having trouble with?

Because nothing about Mary drives us away from Christ; she directs us to Him.

FWIW.
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Goya,

Thank you for both of those posts! Excellent insights.
 
Goya said:
^^^follow up:

As a side note, my ‘flirtations’ with protestantism drove me back to sincere Marian devotion, because it occurred to me that the inherent protestant aversion to Marian devotion, contrasted with the marian devotion demonstrated by so many saints and popes as indicated above, seemed to betray a latent truth about Mary–Mary seems to repel the untrue and insincere. IOW, she acts like a gate keeper.

Hence the phrase “to Christ, through Mary”. If you can be like Mary, if you can truly love Mary as your mother…you can love like Chirst, and love Christ.

If not…you have to ask yourself–what is it about Mary, the Lord’s beloved mother, whom He bequeathed to us at the foot of the cross…that I’m having trouble with?

Because nothing about Mary drives us away from Christ; she directs us to Him.

FWIW.
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thank you, this is helpful. i definitely agree with you, that there is a phenomenon of mary aversion for protestants. but i think it stems from the fact that they accuse us of going too far, so they went far the other way.

i thik i’m starting to get it more now though. as in, her purpose was to always obey God and bring us to christ, nothing else. kind of like how christ wants us to evangelize, so that, through us, we can bring other people to him. maybe that’s not the greatest comparison but it’s the best i’ve got so far lol.

i’ve also started to notice something else. a huge contrast between catholic and protestant way of thinking. cathilics seem to be more on the side of Jesus and Mary, mary cooperating with the jesus. protestants (not all of course) but quite a lot, see some kind of competition between them. like, if you love mary, somehow it means you love Jesus less.

and i have to admit, i do know many of the saints you mentioned but not too many of the protestant characters and how they lived their lives. except martin luther and john calvin and i definitely don’t want to be like them.
 
angell1 said:
thank you, this is helpful. i definitely agree with you, that there is a phenomenon of mary aversion for protestants. but i think it stems from the fact that they accuse us of going too far, so they went far the other way.

i thik i’m starting to get it more now though. as in, her purpose was to always obey God and bring us to christ, nothing else. kind of like how christ wants us to evangelize, so that, through us, we can bring other people to him. maybe that’s not the greatest comparison but it’s the best i’ve got so far lol.

i’ve also started to notice something else. a huge contrast between catholic and protestant way of thinking. cathilics seem to be more on the side of Jesus and Mary, mary cooperating with the jesus. protestants (not all of course) but quite a lot, see some kind of competition between them. like, if you love mary, somehow it means you love Jesus less.

and i have to admit, i do know many of the saints you mentioned but not too many of the protestant characters and how they lived their lives. except martin luther and john calvin and i definitely don’t want to be like them.
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Yes, I’ve noticed the bolded too. Protestantism seems to lend itself to dualism.

Biased though I may be, the Catholic perspective is significantly more consistent with the greater Christian narrative (and therefore the “Gospel”), beginning with the Holy Trinity:

It is the Father, the Son, AND the Holy Spirit–not the Father, the Son, OR the Holy Spirit;

Also, to Catholics, the Faith rests upon the Bible, the Church (via the Magesterium), and Tradition (vs. the Bible vs./OR the Church/Tradition); and of course, Jesus, Mary, and the Saints (vs. Jesus OR Mary/the Saints).

I never understood that; Mary and the Saints, are on Christ’s team (special emphasis here: CHRIST’S TEAM)–they’re all on the same team–not against one another.

Football analogy–it’d be like a New Orleans Saints’ fan accusing another of being traitorous, because they wore a Jimmie Graham Jersey, instead of a Drew Brees Jersey; or Gronk, instead of Tom Brady jersey, v/v NE Pats.

(NB: I’m not a Saints’ or pat’s fan–they just both have 2 of the more famous players to serve the analogy).

Further note–it’s just an analogy–there are obviously great discrepancies in the ‘parallel’s’–as Christ is far more than just the QB–rather more like the owner, Coach, and QB (Trinity parallel–;)). The point however stands, that dawning a jersey of a player that is on the same team, does not take anything away from the team, or from the Owner, coach, or qb–rather it serves to proclaim your allegiance to that team.
 
Goya #21

Who do I try to emulate? Jesus Christ – ‘what would Jesus do’ What do God’s guidelines tell me to do? Do I have a Choice? Sure I do. Lots of people have a role model from their younger years. Maybe a wonderful Sunday School teacher – maybe someone they knew who always helped the poor people in the community. Maybe a missionary they wanted to be like. But People can have a way of falling down off the pedestal that We put them up on.

Jesus Christ Never fails – We will not be perfect – but our life Should be reflecting Jesus Christ. 🙂
 
crochet_lady said:
Goya #21

Who do I try to emulate? Jesus Christ – ‘what would Jesus do’ What do God’s guidelines tell me to do? Do I have a Choice? Sure I do. Lots of people have a role model from their younger years. Maybe a wonderful Sunday School teacher – maybe someone they knew who always helped the poor people in the community. Maybe a missionary they wanted to be like. But People can have a way of falling down off the pedestal that We put them up on.

Jesus Christ Never fails – We will not be perfect – but our life Should be reflecting Jesus Christ. 🙂
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That’s fine; so do I.

As have millions of Christians before you, for 20 centuries.

Quite a few along the way have stood out amongst their generations, throughout the world, providing excellent concrete examples of HOW to follow Christ.

This is why we venerate the saints–countless examples of ordinary people who have lived like Christ, under varying circumstances–including the Apostles, and of course, St. Mary (and St. Joseph)–which we may use to shed light on our own lives, as to HOW to emulate Christ, and live and love as Christ did.

Nothing wrong with asking WWJD–but that question doesn’t answer itself (necessarily); it is very helpful, to look at how other worthy Christians answered that question.

Nothing at all lost to Christ by venerating the Saints; but such a treasure trove of wisdom lost, by neglecting to.
 
angell1 said:
i’ve also started to notice something else. a huge contrast between catholic and protestant way of thinking. cathilics seem to be more on the side of Jesus and Mary, mary cooperating with the jesus. protestants (not all of course) but quite a lot, see some kind of competition between them. like, if you love mary, somehow it means you love Jesus less.
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Agreed! And when I notice this sort of difference in thinking I usually say, “it is ok with me for you to limit your love for God, but please don’t limit my love for Him. If I choose to place Mary higher than you do, it does not mean I put her higher than God. Maybe, just maybe, I am putting God higher than you have”.

Peace!!!
 
crochet_lady said:
As a non-Catholic on this Forum – I’ve been learning a Lot about Catholicism. Obviously God chose Mary to be the earthly mother of Jesus. Why – we don’t know – it was God’s choice. The angel told her what was going to happen. The Holy Spirit would come upon her and she would bear the Christ Child. In Luke 1 – Mary’s song " My soul glorifies the Lord and my spirit rejoices in God my Savior, for He has been mindful of the humble state of his servant, From now on all generations will call be blessed, for the Mighty One has done great things for me-- holy is His name, etc.

But in the rest of Scripture – she gives birth in a very humble place – a stable.

But no where in Scripture are we told to pray To or Through Mary. We ARE told that Jesus Christ – the Man Christ Jesus is our Mediator between God and man.

And people are Bound and Determined that Mary didn’t have any other children. That for Some reason, it just wouldn’t be Proper for her womb to hold any other person. And I know that there has already been Much discussion about this in other questions.

Jesus prayed directly to His Father when He was here before going to the cross.

Philippians 4:6 & 7 “but in everything by prayer and petition, with thanksgiving, present your requests to God. And the peace of God which transcends all understanding will guard your hearts and your minds in Christ Jesus.”

Just some thoughts 🙂
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Our belief is that the Blessed Virgin’s heart and will is as close to her Son’s as any human creature’s could possibly be. She is, after all (as has been stated here) the Ark of the New Covenant.

Now, even St. Paul describes how we should be imitators of HIM so as to be imitators of Christ, realizing without false humility that he is close to Christ. [1Co 4:16,11:1]

How much more so Mary?
 
crochet_lady said:
Goya #21

Who do I try to emulate? Jesus Christ – ‘what would Jesus do’ What do God’s guidelines tell me to do?
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Well, as I just said, St. Paul tells the Corinthians to emulate HIM, and in so doing, to emulate Jesus.

Why not try to emulate Mary as well, in order to emulate Christ?

You see, we believe that the Saints’ wills are joined to Christ’s will, and so to emulate them would be to emulate Christ.
Do I have a Choice? Sure I do. Lots of people have a role model from their younger years. Maybe a wonderful Sunday School teacher – maybe someone they knew who always helped the poor people in the community. Maybe a missionary they wanted to be like. But People can have a way of falling down off the pedestal that We put them up on.
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Jesus Christ Never fails – We will not be perfect – but our life Should be reflecting Jesus Christ. 🙂
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That’s the reason that the Church shows us WHICH of our brothers & sisters are truly united with Christ in Heaven, now, and therefore to be emulated.

Yes, I’m “sure” there are many saints whom we don’t know. Or they could be undergoing a purging of their sins. But those declared to be in the Beatific Vision now are united with God.
 
Angell1,

Today’s broadcast of Catholic Answers had a whole hour on Mary; I’m sure it will be available on podcast shortly; it’s the first hour of today’s show. It answered many of the thoughts brought up in this thread, and I can’t remember which apologist is on, but he’s a former Catholic.
 
A former Catholic was on Catholic Answers talking about Mary?
 
angell1 said:
hi everyone.

i still seem to be struggling with mary.

i have no problem asking for her intercession, i think i understand and believe all the marian doctrines and how they fit in with Jesus.

but the problem i’m having is, have we maybe gone a little too far?

here is a page of marian prayers.

marypages.com/PrayerstoMary.htm

i know we don’t worship her but with some of these, the line really seems to be blurred. our life, hope and sweetness. devoting our entire selves to her, obtain for us salvation, EtC.

i don’t know, i’m just really having some issues with this. i feel like maybe some of it has gone a little too far.

and the bible is really not much help on this, Jesus is relatively silent on his mother, doesn’t really honour much in scripture with a ton of illustrious titles. i have heard a ton of protestant accusations on this and i have to admit, it’s a little hard to defend.

has anyone else ever had issues with this? thanks
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I have had a devotion to Our Lady from childhood. But I can understand your slight unease at some devotions that may dilute the salvation role of our Jesus. Don;t be put off by anything you feel excessive. It is not catholic teaching that Mary was a co-redemptrix, but her role was real, necessary and documented. Her position as Mother of God is documented in the Bible and the Marian doctrines are infallible teachings of tradition.
Jesus ’ s love for His Mother is found in His submission to her will, after being lost to her in the Temple, and in His submission to her will at the marriage feast. Her importance permeates the Bible and her Fiat changes our world for all time. Devotion to her is a just and lovely part of Catholic tradition and folds well into the cloth of our love of Christ our only God and our only Redeemer. Don.t be afraid of Mary. Love reverence respect and devotion, but never worship.
 
Goya said:
Rather than addressing your question from an ‘academic’ or even theological perspective, I’m going to address it personally.

For reference–my wife is evangelical protestant. To her and her people, Mary is like repellant. It freaks her and her family, and all her people, out. Truly freaks them out.

Let me put it to you this way–Mary is the Mother of Chirst; yet they can not, to save their lives, formulate a positive comment about her, that isn’t immediately nagated with “but…”.

As in, “Mary was the Jesus’s mother…BUT that’s all”.

or “…BUT she was also a sinner”

or “…BUT she’s just another human being”

or “…BUT she had relations with Joseph, and had other children…”

I volunteer this for reference.

Now, here’s what brought be BACK to Mary:

When I looked at the Christians throughout history, what the Church Fathers had to say, as well as what contemporary Christians say…I realized that my aspirational peers were Catholic, and many/most held the Virgin Mary in the highest esteem.

I chose to–in fact, continuously choose to–strive to be like them.

As with so much of my search into protestantism, it almost always came down to:

The Church Fathers and the Saints (never mind the Popes) on one side; and the Reformers on the other. (e.g.–wrt—the Real Presence/Eucharist; confession; celibate priesthood; male priesthood; Baptism; basically the sacraments…).

So, I suggest stepping back, and asking yourself–as a Christian, who do you want to seek to emulate, and be more like?

***St. Joseph, St. John, St. Polycarp, St. Ireneaus, St. Cyril of Jerusalem, St. Jerome, St. Ambrose, St. Augustine, St. Thomas Aquinas, St. Dominic, St. Francis of assisi, St. Basil, St. Teresa of Avila, St. John of the Cross, St. Thomas Moore, St. Therese of Lisseux, Pope Paul VI, Blessed Mother of Calcutta, Blessed Pope John Paul II, Pope Benedict XVI, Pope Francis, just to name a few that come to mind…
–or–

Martin Luther, John Calvin, “Drs.” Spurgeon Sr &/Jr., Billy Graham, Oral Roberts, Jimmy Swaggart, Jim and Tammy Faye Bakker, Jerry Fallwell, Pat Robertson, or Joel Osteen…

Then ask yourself where each/they stood, vis a vis the Virgin Mary.

NOTE: worth noting–before the ‘Reform movement’ fully lost its way (i.e. the movement that would stray and later be named --rather self-servingly, and inaccurately imo, as the Reformation) Martin Luther–(even AFTER he had been defrocked and excommunicated), made many statements that were very flattering to the Virgin Mary–read into that, what you will.

But, for good measure, here is a quote from St. Irenaeus:
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It makes me so happy to read this. I just can’t smile big enough!😃
 
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