Struggling With the Inquisition

[patricius79]

Hi I could use some help…

I’m on a protestant forum and it usually goes very well. But I am struggling with how the Popes such as Innocent IV authorized torture cf. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ad_extirpanda

This was brought up to me by a strong protestant and I am also troubled by what I am reading about how the Church allowed and authorized people to be burned at the stake, or at least turned people over to said treatment. I suppose this happened with Jan Hus at the hand of the Council of Constance.

I need someone really well-versed in this area who can shed some light and context without excusing the sins of those in the Church, or even those leading the Church.

 

[Randy_Carson]

Hi I could use some help…

I’m on a protestant forum and it usually goes very well. But I am struggling with how the Popes such as Innocent IV authorized torture cf. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ad_extirpanda

This was brought up to me by a strong protestant and I am also troubled by what I am reading about how the Church allowed and authorized people to be burned at the stake, or at least turned people over to said treatment. I suppose this happened with Jan Hus at the hand of the Council of Constance.

I need someone really well-versed in this area who can shed some light and context without excusing the sins of those in the Church, or even those leading the Church.

Stop!

Don’t read another post in this thread until you have read all of the following:

Articles on the Inquisition

---

The Inquisition
catholic.com/library/Inquisition.asp

**An Inquisition Primer **
By Robert P. Lockwood
catholic.com/thisrock/2007/0709tbt.asp

**Secrets of the Spanish Inquisition Revealed **
By Robert P. Lockwood
catholic.com/thisrock/2007/0711tbt.asp

A New Look At the Spanish Inquisition
by Edward O’Brien
ewtn.com/library/HOMELIBR/SPANINQ.TXT

Then we can talk, okay?

 

[VociMike]

The first question I would ask any Christian is why they don’t also object to the penalties ordained by God in the Old Testament. Every Christian must face that question before condemning the Inquisition.

 

[AmbroseSJ]

My question is where is the Inquisition NOW, when we really need it!!

 

[Drawmack]

The first question I would ask any Christian is why they don’t also object to the penalties ordained by God in the Old Testament. Every Christian must face that question before condemning the Inquisition.

According to Fr. Lukefahr in the textbook for the class I took on a Catholic Bible perspective he talks about these things not actually being ordained by God, but rather that the people perceived them to be ordained by God. Just be prepared for that one to come back at you if you go this way. I would say it is better apologetics to either show that the person is wrong or explain how these were the actions of the man and not of the man’s office.

(I can look up the actual quote if anyone insists, but I’m feeling a little lazy at the moment.)

 

[lookaround]

The first question I would ask any Christian is why they don’t also object to the penalties ordained by God in the Old Testament. Every Christian must face that question before condemning the Inquisition.

When they kept on questioning him, he straightened up and said to them, “If any one of you is without sin, let him be the first to throw a stone at her.”
John 8:7

 

[VociMike]

When they kept on questioning him, he straightened up and said to them, “If any one of you is without sin, let him be the first to throw a stone at her.”
John 8:7

I’m well aware of that. And yet the God of the Old Testament is the same as the God of the New Testament. You cannot simply dismiss the entire Old Testament with a wave of the hand. My point is that many non-Catholic Christians are too quick to sweep the OT God-ordained punishments under the rug with one hand, while tsk-tsk’ing the Catholic Church on the other. And that may be gratifying, but it is not intellectually honest.

 

[lookaround]

I’m well aware of that. And yet the God of the Old Testament is the same as the God of the New Testament. You cannot simply dismiss the entire Old Testament with a wave of the hand. My point is that many non-Catholic Christians are too quick to sweep the OT God-ordained punishments under the rug with one hand, while tsk-tsk’ing the Catholic Church on the other. And that may be gratifying, but it is not intellectually honest.

who was your sinless Inquisitioner?

I’m well aware of that.

sadly I don’t think you are

 

[VociMike]

According to Fr. Lukefahr in the textbook for the class I took on a Catholic Bible perspective he talks about these things not actually being ordained by God, but rather that the people perceived them to be ordained by God. Just be prepared for that one to come back at you if you go this way. I would say it is better apologetics to either show that the person is wrong or explain how these were the actions of the man and not of the man’s office.

(I can look up the actual quote if anyone insists, but I’m feeling a little lazy at the moment.)

I’m not suggesting that the Inquisition was ordained by God, but I am suggesting that Christians of good faith may have convinced themselves that it was so ordained. Many people today, when it comes to Church history, are too quick to ascribe to malice what can also be understood according other, less impure motives.

Those who organized the Inquisition did not simply decide one morning that it would be an excellent way to inflict maximum pain and suffering while maintaining their illicit power over others. People in the past were actual people, not cardboard cutouts. Many of them loved God greatly. All of them were sinners. And honest people today will understand that and seek true understanding over simple-minded condemnation.

 

[VociMike]

who was your sinless Inquisitioner?

sadly I don’t think you are

I can already see that your mind is closed on this matter, so I see no reason to discuss it further with you. You continue to view the matter as all black vs. all white if it suits your particular needs. Others, I hope, will approach the question with more impartiality and genuine desire to understand what was done and why.

 

[JW10631]

One cannot pas judgment on the Spanish Inquisition without understanding how the legal system worked in its time and how criminal punishment was administered.

For what it’s worth King Henry VIII - the one time son in law of Queen Isabel - permitted and enforced tortures and executions in severity and number greater than that of the Inquisition, but because we in the English speaking world get our history from the English, the Inquisition is part of the Black Legend, the propaganda created by Protestant English and Dutch to smear Spain.

If someone threw the Inquisition in my face, I would ask what would that person do if their nation had been overrun and conquered by militant Islam and had innocent people sold off into slavery. The Catholics of Spain struggled for nearly 800 years to free their nation of the Muslim invaders and religious unity was necessary to unite the nation in its struggle for freedom from the invaders.

Queen Isabel, far from the bloodthirsty torturer the Black Legend makes her out to be, was a loyal Catholic and spouse and mother and the best Queen in world history.

 

[tjm190]

This isn’t a problem for those of us who don’t believe the RCC is infallible… just sayin’

 

[lookaround]

I can already see that your mind is closed on this matter, so I see no reason to discuss it further with you. You continue to view the matter as all black vs. all white if it suits your particular needs. Others, I hope, will approach the question with more impartiality and genuine desire to understand what was done and why.

I am prepared to hear what you think Jesus meant when he said, “If any one of you is without sin, let him be the first to throw a stone at her.”

You asked for someone to justify the objection to the Inquisition in light of the OT law.
I did, with Jesus words

outside of that I don’t know what to tell you…

 

[Cluny]

In addition to the other books recommended, I suggest you read

CHARACTERS OF THE INQUISITION

by Thomas Walsh.

It’s published by TAN.

 

[lookaround]

One cannot pas judgment on the Spanish Inquisition without understanding how the legal system worked in its time and how criminal punishment was administered.

For what it’s worth King Henry VIII - the one time son in law of Queen Isabel - permitted and enforced tortures and executions in severity and number greater than that of the Inquisition, but because we in the English speaking world get our history from the English, the Inquisition is part of the Black Legend, the propaganda created by Protestant English and Dutch to smear Spain.

If someone threw the Inquisition in my face, I would ask what would that person do if their nation had been overrun and conquered by militant Islam and had innocent people sold off into slavery. The Catholics of Spain struggled for nearly 800 years to free their nation of the Muslim invaders and religious unity was necessary to unite the nation in its struggle for freedom from the invaders.

Queen Isabel, far from the bloodthirsty torturer the Black Legend makes her out to be, was a loyal Catholic and spouse and mother and the best Queen in world history.

honestly
this would be a fine answer if the RCC was just a church and did not claim to be THE CHURCH

 

[VociMike]

I am prepared to hear what you think Jesus meant when he said, “If any one of you is without sin, let him be the first to throw a stone at her.”

You asked for someone to justify the objection to the Inquisition in light of the OT law.
I did, with Jesus words

outside of that I don’t know what to tell you…

Here’s what you can tell me. Tell me why that passage doesn’t eliminate all prosecution and punishment for all crimes. After all, all police authorities, judges, jailers, juries will be with sin.

You are reading back into an enigmatic passage what you want to read into it, as if the meaning were obvious. But the meaning is not obvious at all.

Let me ask another question. What exactly does that passage mean? What does it allow and what does it prohibit?

 

[VociMike]

honestly
this would be a fine answer if the RCC was just a church and did not claim to be THE CHURCH

Do you not understand that the Catholic Church was and is composed of sinners and of fallen people?

If a Christian sins, does that mean that the Christian faith is not THE FAITH?

 

[Tantum_ergo]

Infallibility is not the same as impeccability.

That means the Church is protected from teaching error in matters of faith and morals. It doesn’t mean that individuals within it cannot, themselves, err. Big difference. So to claim that if somebody ‘in the church’ is sinful, then it 'can’t be “THE CHURCH” is jejune. Um, ever hear of a man named Judas who was picked as an apostle by. . .Jesus Christ? By the logic (?) slapped onto the Catholic Church re the Inquisition et. al, there should not even be a Christian religion. . .after all, one of the 12 ‘founders’ was a big bad sinner. Spoils the whole claim of those apostles to be leaders of ‘one church’ now doesn’t it?

And seriously, the revisionism of history in the last two generations is appalling. But then again, the inmates have been running the educational asylum that long and longer so it’s not surprising. The lies spread about the Inquisition are the 17th centuries ‘urban legends’, repeated over and over and over, with the idea that if they’re said often enough and loudly enough, people will get tired of arguing and let it’ pass.

Read those articles referrenced above or take a look at “The Politically Correct Guide to Western Civilization” for some information that may surprise you.

 

[lookaround]

Here’s what you can tell me. Tell me why that passage doesn’t eliminate all prosecution and punishment for all crimes. After all, all police authorities, judges, jailers, juries will be with sin.

honestly
maybe it does (although we do know that governments which practice moral laws are instituted by God)

You are reading back into an enigmatic passage what you want to read into it, as if the meaning were obvious. But the meaning is not obvious at all.

I disagree (it was obvious to the Jews and they didn’t know Jesus and I hope you do :no joke: )

Let me ask another question. What exactly does that passage mean? What does it allow and what does it prohibit?

that we are not to judge another and we must examine ourselves
(this is a constant message in the Bible)

 

[Drawmack]

I’m not suggesting that the Inquisition was ordained by God, but I am suggesting that Christians of good faith may have convinced themselves that it was so ordained. Many people today, when it comes to Church history, are too quick to ascribe to malice what can also be understood according other, less impure motives.

Those who organized the Inquisition did not simply decide one morning that it would be an excellent way to inflict maximum pain and suffering while maintaining their illicit power over others. People in the past were actual people, not cardboard cutouts. Many of them loved God greatly. All of them were sinners. And honest people today will understand that and seek true understanding over simple-minded condemnation.

I understand all that, that’s why my post finished up by saying what, IMHO, should actually be addressed.

Matter of fact if you search my posts you’ll note that I’ve only brought the up inquisition once on these boards and that was in response to someone suggesting that in areas where Catholics control the secular governments these secular governments should be used to force, through legal punishments, the Protestants not to attempt conversion of the Catholics. And, in that case I felt, and still feel, it was fair to point out that this is a dangerous path by comparing it with the inquisition.

I agree that the inquisition is an embarrassment and possibly a black eye for the Catholic Church but any institution comprised of men that’s been around for as long as the Catholic Church that doesn’t have a couple embarrassments and black eyes is just really good at hiding them. And, anyone who attempts to debate by pointing out embarrassments and black eyes should expect to have theirs brought up as well. It’s all mud slinging as far as I’m concerned.