Struggling with The Tyrannical warrior God of the Old Testement

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Well, first of all I would like to say hello to everyone. This is my first post of these forums.

I too went through this same struggle but after much reading and contemplation I think I’ve resolved it (at least for myself).

Firstly, I do not believe that the entire OT paints God as a tyrant. It is really only the first 5 books (the Pentateuch) that do that. If you read the prophets (especially Isaiah) I think you will discover a God much more akin to Jesus’ ‘Father in Heaven’ than the ‘Lord of Hosts’ of the Pentateuch. This is a God who loves peace, who tells us to care for the poor and the widows, and fight tyranny and exploitation. Yes, he can be stern and even vindictive (read Hosea), but he is a just God who would never sanction the slaughter of women and children.

So what of the Pentateuch? After all, it can’t be entirely dismissed without removing the foundation of Christianity and Judaeism. I think that it has to be put in perspective. Yes, it contains many important stories but it was also written by priests who had their own agenda. This is not modern skepticism, the prophet Jeremiah himself said to the priests of his era:
  • “How can you say ‘We are wise, and the law of the Lord is with us’? Look, the false pen of the scribe certainly works falsehood. The wise men are ashamed. They are dismayed and taken. Behold, you have rejected the word of the Lord.” *
    Jeremiah 8:8
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That’s a very bold accusation but keep in mind who made it.

The prophet Isaiah went even further and attacked the formal religion of the Hebrew priesthood with it’s sacrifices and ceremonies:
  • “ He who kills a bull is as if he slays a man;
    He who sacrifices a lamb, as if he breaks a dog’s neck;
    He who offers a grain offering, as if he offers swine’s blood;
    He who burns incense, as if he blesses an idol.
    Just as they have chosen their own ways,
    And their soul delights in their abominations,
    So will I choose their delusions,
    And bring their fears on them;
    Because, when I called, no one answered,
    When I spoke they did not hear;
    But they did evil before My eyes,
    And chose that in which I do not delight. "*
    Isaiah 66:3-4
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He called animal sacrifice, which was proscribed in the book of Leviticus, an ABOMINATION! Earlier in that same chapter, he questions the necessity of the temple, the center of worship in that era. Keep in mind that this isn’t just Isaiah giving his opinion; he claims to be speaking on God’s behalf.

Of course, conflict between the formal hierarchy of priests and the prophets was inevitible but these verses can’t easily be reconciled. Either God spoke through the prophets or he did not -the same goes for the authors of the Pentateuch. Both could be wrong, but both cannot be right. Either God sanctions the murder of innocents, or he abhors it. Either he commands animal sacrifice, or he sees it as an abomination.

The issue isn’t really about who you or I want God to be. Everyone is perfectly free to accept or reject YHVH (there are plenty of other deities out there to choose from). For me, what resolved this issue was asking myself 2 simple questions and answering them honestly.

Question 1: Do you believe Jesus when he said that ‘those who have seen me have seen the father’?

When I answered in the affirmative to this question, the next one was easy.

Question 2: Can you imagine Jesus ordering the murder of women and children and the rape of young girls?

No, of course not. The God potrayed in much of the Pentateuch is simply the invention of priests who sought to justify their useless trade by falsifying history. I’m not saying there was never a Moses or a flight from Egypt, only that those events happened so long ago that what we know about them is legend, not history.
 
Fenelon said:
No, of course not. The God potrayed in much of the Pentateuch is simply the invention of priests who sought to justify their useless trade by falsifying history. I’m not saying there was never a Moses or a flight from Egypt, only that those events happened so long ago that what we know about them is legend, not history.
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I was reading happily along until coming upon this bump in the road. It would take the thread off topic to discuss this claim against the Levitical priesthood, so please start a new thread about it so it can be properly discussed. Okay? Thanks. 🙂
 
Fenelon said:
Either God spoke through the prophets or he did not -the same goes for the authors of the Pentateuch. Both could be wrong, but both cannot be right. Either God sanctions the murder of innocents, or he abhors it. Either he commands animal sacrifice, or he sees it as an abomination.
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That puts it in a nutshell. 🙂 Welcome to the forum!
 
Fenelon said:
Well, first of all I would like to say hello to everyone. This is my first post of these forums.

I too went through this same struggle but after much reading and contemplation I think I’ve resolved it (at least for myself).

Firstly, I do not believe that the entire OT paints God as a tyrant. It is really only the first 5 books (the Pentateuch) that do that. If you read the prophets (especially Isaiah) I think you will discover a God much more akin to Jesus’ ‘Father in Heaven’ than the ‘Lord of Hosts’ of the Pentateuch. This is a God who loves peace, who tells us to care for the poor and the widows, and fight tyranny and exploitation. Yes, he can be stern and even vindictive (read Hosea), but he is a just God who would never sanction the slaughter of women and children.

So what of the Pentateuch? After all, it can’t be entirely dismissed without removing the foundation of Christianity and Judaeism. I think that it has to be put in perspective. Yes, it contains many important stories but it was also written by priests who had their own agenda. This is not modern skepticism, the prophet Jeremiah himself said to the priests of his era:

That’s a very bold accusation but keep in mind who made it.

The prophet Isaiah went even further and attacked the formal religion of the Hebrew priesthood with it’s sacrifices and ceremonies:

He called animal sacrifice, which was proscribed in the book of Leviticus, an ABOMINATION! Earlier in that same chapter, he questions the necessity of the temple, the center of worship in that era. Keep in mind that this isn’t just Isaiah giving his opinion; he claims to be speaking on God’s behalf.

Of course, conflict between the formal hierarchy of priests and the prophets was inevitible but these verses can’t easily be reconciled. Either God spoke through the prophets or he did not -the same goes for the authors of the Pentateuch. Both could be wrong, but both cannot be right. Either God sanctions the murder of innocents, or he abhors it. Either he commands animal sacrifice, or he sees it as an abomination.

The issue isn’t really about who you or I want God to be. Everyone is perfectly free to accept or reject YHVH (there are plenty of other deities out there to choose from). For me, what resolved this issue was asking myself 2 simple questions and answering them honestly.

Question 1: Do you believe Jesus when he said that ‘those who have seen me have seen the father’?

When I answered in the affirmative to this question, the next one was easy.

Question 2: Can you imagine Jesus ordering the murder of women and children and the rape of young girls?

No, of course not. The God potrayed in much of the Pentateuch is simply the invention of priests who sought to justify their useless trade by falsifying history. I’m not saying there was never a Moses or a flight from Egypt, only that those events happened so long ago that what we know about them is legend, not history.
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I am basically in agreement with what you have said. If that makes me a heretic, then God forgive me and i apologize to all the faithful Catholics on this forum. But with all honesty in my heart i feel compelled to agree with Fenelon. Hopefully God will not judge me too harshly. I dare say that there is an economic agenda in some of the writings of the old testament. This is why i feel compelled to say that there is a moral development in the bible. I do not believe that the old testament is morally infallible. I refuse to have an unreasonable blind faith. If i hold the bible to be infallible, then such infallibility has to be held on other grounds. In other words the bible is the infallible word of God for reasons that have very little to do with the morality of the old testament.
 
MindOverMatter2 said:
I am basically in agreement with what you have said. If that makes me a heretic, then God forgive me and i apologize to all the faithful Catholics on this forum. But with all honesty in my heart i feel compelled to agree with Fenelon. Hopefully God will not judge me too harshly. I dare say that there is an economic agenda in some of the writings of the old testament. This is why i feel compelled to say that there is a moral development in the bible. I do not believe that the old testament is morally infallible. I refuse to have an unreasonable blind faith. If i hold the bible to be infallible, then such infallibility has to be held on other grounds. In other words the bible is the infallible word of God for reasons that have very little to do with the morality of the old testament.
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You needn’t worry about being a heretic. The Catholic Church has never decreed that the morality of the Old Testament is to be respected, let alone commanded by God!
 
tonyrey said:
You needn’t worry about being a heretic. The Catholic Church has never decreed that the morality of the Old Testament is to be respected, let alone commanded by God!
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Documentation, please.
 
Della said:
You needn’t worry about being a heretic. The Catholic Church has never decreed that the morality of the Old Testament is to be respected, let alone commanded by God!
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Documentation, please. You are asking me to prove a negative! You are the one who has to produce documentation that the Church has made such a decree…
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MindOverMatter2 said:
I am basically in agreement with what you have said. If that makes me a heretic, then God forgive me and i apologize to all the faithful Catholics on this forum. But with all honesty in my heart i feel compelled to agree with Fenelon. Hopefully God will not judge me too harshly. I dare say that there is an economic agenda in some of the writings of the old testament. This is why i feel compelled to say that there is a moral development in the bible. I do not believe that the old testament is morally infallible. I refuse to have an unreasonable blind faith. If i hold the bible to be infallible, then such infallibility has to be held on other grounds. In other words the bible is the infallible word of God for reasons that have very little to do with the morality of the old testament.
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Can you respond to what I wrote?

What, specifically, do you have problems with? And how are they compatible with/resolved by the orthodox view which I have explained?
 
Well, to answer the OP, I think we should be careful to avoid the trap of judging God. Try judging a human judge in court, and see what you get. 😃
I don’t think any of the Catholics here are knowingly judging our Creator. But, there is a line when questioning God, that when crossed becomes judging God. I try to walk wide and clear of that line.

And, with that viewpoint, I pretty much accept the OT God as same as the NT God, as He is, because His son accepts me as I am…sinful. And, I grow to learn to become a repentant sinner.

But, God is not sinful. And, He is the absolute standard of morality.

The same chapter of the same book in the OT enjoins the Hebrews to love their friend/neighbor as themselves. And, some verses later on, to love the stranger in their midst as their neighbor. All this in the context of OT, “Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thine heart, with all thine strength and with all thy mind.”

So, we have a glimpse of Jesus’ divine two Commandments, love God and love thy neighbor in the OT. And, in the NT we have a glimpse of the fiery OT when Jesus blasts the fig tree outside of Jerusalem and also when he makes a whip and chases the money changers out of the Temple. So, a glimpse of the NT in the OT and a glimmer of the OT in the NT. The Father and Son are two persons of the same God Most High the Holy Trinity. All one God.

It is not wise, to judge any of the three persons of the Holy Trinity. It is best to leave judging to Jesus Christ, whose Heavenly Father appointed Him the judge of all.
And, we should always be careful of crossing the line, when asking questions about God.
 
My 2 cents:

As I recall the prophets of old foretold that there would come a time when God would pour out His spirit on all flesh. For His own reason, and we cannot question God, he chose to pour out His spirit on only a select few in the OT. I personally think it was because those are the only ones who actually sought Him – for He did say somewhere else that if we seek Him we would find Him (paraphrased - I’m am so not good at quoting scripture) . So, when the time was right He sent His Son to redeem the world and if you recall Jesus said “…greater things than these you shall do because I go to the Father”. He also said He would send the Holy Spirit…and then we experienced Pentecost. Now, anyone who asks will be given the Holy Spirit and thus be able to know the Father.

What am I saying? That in the OT times we (humanity) did not have the grace of the salvation given us by the Blood of Jesus – so we could not receive the Holy Spirit – therefore the OT people certainly interpreted God in the only way they could – they saw Him through their fallen human eyes – their eyes had not yet been opened through the revelation by the Holy Spirit. When Jesus came He revealed Him for the loving God that He truly is – but He is not weak. He wrote the Law and He stands by it – read Romans.😊
 
I am attenending a Bible Study put together by Jeff Cavins right now. It is to go on for 28 weeks, and began about seven weeks ago. It is called the Bible Timeline.

The discussion of all the killings in the Old Testament came up when we reached the part about the Israelites entering the land that was promised them, after all the years of being in the desert. Joshua is leading them, and they are told to take the cities as the Lord commands them.

It was explained that the pagan nations that lived in these places had heard all about the Israelites and how they were led by Moses out of Egypt with all the signs and wonders that God did for them through Moses. These nations were fearful of the Israelites and their powerful God. These nations were also unrepentant of their wicked ways, and they were well known for their evil practices of human sacrifices, and temple prostitution.

The Lord knew that the Israelites would have to wipe out many of them in order to live there and not be affected by their false gods and barbaric evil practices. The Lord was preparing a people, a nation from whom the Incarnation would eventually take place. He punished them when they did not trust him, and he kept his promises and protected them and led their way through the desert.

It was exciting to see how the Lord kept his covenants right from the beginning, and didn’t allow anything to get in the way of his plan for us.

Everyone in the group got a different picture of why those pagan nations had to be wiped out. Some of them had been thinking that the God of the Old Testament seemed to be a different God from the New Testament.
 
Dorothy said:
It was explained that the pagan nations that lived in these places had heard all about the Israelites and how they were led by Moses out of Egypt with all the signs and wonders that God did for them through Moses. These nations were fearful of the Israelites and their powerful God. These nations were also unrepentant of their wicked ways, and they were well known for their evil practices of human sacrifices, and temple prostitution.

The Lord knew that the Israelites would have to wipe out many of them in order to live there and not be affected by their false gods and barbaric evil practices. The Lord was preparing a people, a nation from whom the Incarnation would eventually take place. He punished them when they did not trust him, and he kept his promises and protected them and led their way through the desert.

It was exciting to see how the Lord kept his covenants right from the beginning, and didn’t allow anything to get in the way of his plan for us.

Everyone in the group got a different picture of why those pagan nations had to be wiped out. Some of them had been thinking that the God of the Old Testament seemed to be a different God from the New Testament.
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If we are all children of God why would he create those that he was just going to punish? He could have just softened the hearts of the pagan tribes - why war? Why Kill Children? Why Kill Animals? To me it doesn’t seem like a universal God but rather a tribal one, only interested in one group. Also limited in His power if the only solution is war.
 
jonfawkes said:
If we are all children of God why would he create those that he was just going to punish? He could have just softened the hearts of the pagan tribes - why war? Why Kill Children? Why Kill Animals? To me it doesn’t seem like a universal God but rather a tribal one, only interested in one group. Also limited in His power if the only solution is war.
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Everyone of us has free will, even the pagan nations. It was shown in the Scripture that the pagan nations had heard all about the children of Israel and the many signs and wonders that the Lord had performed for them. But, they chose to stay with their barbaric ways of sacrificing babies and people to Moloch, temple prostitution, and other things.

In God’s plan it was the only thing that would wipe out these people so that the “vine” of the Jewish nation would flourish.

I’m sure the pagans were given choices, and they chose not to follow the one God of the Israelites. Incidentally, the Lord wiped out the rebellious Israelites along the way. The reason for the forty years in the desert was to purify them from their involvement with the pagan gods around them. Another generation was ready and trained to be a nation believing in one God.

There are a lot of things in Scripture that cause us to stop and wonder. When there is something I do not understand I don’t question God, because I believe he is all good,all merciful, and that he has a plan that is for our good, that I, in my finite mind, just don’t see the reasons for. I am not omniscient like God is and so don’t see the whole picture.

Just as an aside, my husband got cancer seven years before he died. Prior to that he ridiculed being too “religious”, and wouldn’t allow me to listen to cd’s of Christian songs when he was around, so I didn’t.

During his illness he drew closer to the Lord, and there was quite a transformation in him. I realize that cancer was a “gift” to him, in that he caused him to draw closer to the Lord, and endure a painful death that he was resigned to. (His cancer went to bone cancer throughout his body.) He went to confession and attended Mass regularly starting about four months before his death. He was so peaceful and happy and wished he had done that sooner.
 
Dorothy said:
Everyone of us has free will, even the pagan nations. It was shown in the Scripture that the pagan nations had heard all about the children of Israel and the many signs and wonders that the Lord had performed for them. But, they chose to stay with their barbaric ways of sacrificing babies and people to Moloch, temple prostitution, and other things.

In God’s plan it was the only thing that would wipe out these people so that the “vine” of the Jewish nation would flourish.
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Then it seems that God is limited in his power if this was “the only thing”.
 
jonfawkes said:
If we are all children of God why would he create those that he was just going to punish? He could have just softened the hearts of the pagan tribes - why war? Why Kill Children? Why Kill Animals? To me it doesn’t seem like a universal God but rather a tribal one, only interested in one group. Also limited in His power if the only solution is war.
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Dorothy has it right. The Israelites were promised land in Canaan, a hostile place whose inhabitants were pagan worshipers of Ba’al. To keep the identity of the Israelites as God’s chosen people, the Ba’al worship had to go, and that is why Jericho, Ai and other places were destroyed and the survivors put to the sword.

The OT is full of the consequences of failing to eradicate this form of paganism, Israelites, king and people, repeatedly fell back into pagan worship, failed to pull down the “high places”, and suffered for it: bad kings, child sacrifice, temple prostitutes, a divided kingdom, and ultimately deportations.
 
jonfawkes said:
Then it seems that God is limited in his power if this was “the only thing”.
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I wonder if you’ve been listening to or reading from too many skeptics and atheists.

When you read all the posts on this thread, you can get a pretty good idea of what happened then. It also helps if you read histories about those times. It always brings error to judge the past by today’s standard. You got to judge an era by it’s own standards and you’ll get to a different viewpoint.
 
donsnow said:
I wonder if you’ve been listening to or reading from too many skeptics and atheists.

When you read all the posts on this thread, you can get a pretty good idea of what happened then. It also helps if you read histories about those times. It always brings error to judge the past by today’s standard. You got to judge an era by it’s own standards and you’ll get to a different viewpoint.
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So God is limited by the times. Again a limit,
 
jonfawkes said:
So God is limited by the times. Again a limit,
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God doesn’t force people into choices. The Israelites in 1400 BC were at a stage in salvation history where they were just coming out of bondage in a pantheistic land and coming into their own land, surrounded and inhabited by pagans. That’s the material He worked with.

He could have snapped His fingers and made everything perfect, but that’s not how He apparently works.

You need to get up to speed on this stuff.
 
Della said:
tonyrey;7346052:
The one who makes the assertion is the one who has to “prove” it.
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Not if if it is a negative assertion. All you have to do is provide one decree which falsifies my statement - which shouldn’t be difficult to do that if you are so convinced I am mistaken -.whereas I would have to undertake the absurd task of listing all the Church’s decrees!
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