Struggling with The Tyrannical warrior God of the Old Testement

[jonfawkes]

God doesn’t force people into choices. The Israelites in 1400 BC were at a stage in salvation history where they were just coming out of bondage in a pantheistic land and coming into their own land, surrounded and inhabited by pagans. That’s the material He worked with.

He could have snapped His fingers and made everything perfect, but that’s not how He apparently works.

You need to get up to speed on this stuff.

Right - but as people of God we supposedly have a higher calling. Saying “everyone else is doing it” (killing each other) doesn’t cut the mustard. So “that’s the material he worked with” limits God. Like he didn’t have any other choice. He had hardened the hearts of men and softened the hearts of men he could have done it in this case. Also God did perform miracles during this time (Exodus) -what was one more. Snapping his fingers was part of it. I’m speeding along

 

[tonyrey]

We rightly regard the Massacre of the Innocents by Herod as a horrific atrocity yet God is said to have commanded the Israelites to commit genocide to prevent the spread of paganism. How would the babies who were slaughtered have posed a threat to morality? Or was that a salutary lesson for the benefit of adults?

 

[Reservoir_Dog]

Right - but as people of God we supposedly have a higher calling. Saying “everyone else is doing it” (killing each other) doesn’t cut the mustard. So “that’s the material he worked with” limits God. Like he didn’t have any other choice. He had hardened the hearts of men and softened the hearts of men he could have done it in this case. Also God did perform miracles during this time (Exodus) -what was one more. Snapping his fingers was part of it. I’m speeding along

God ordered the slaughter at Jericho etc. That’s enough reason. Not being God, I don’t have an insight into His mind. There are a few theologically valid reasons that you’ve been given. You can accept them or not.

 

[Reservoir_Dog]

We rightly regard the Massacre of the Innocents by Herod as a horrific atrocity yet God is said to have commanded the Israelites to commit genocide to prevent the spread of paganism. How would the babies who were slaughtered have posed a threat to morality? Or was that a salutary lesson for the benefit of adults?

The massacres were intended to keep the Israelites from the temptations of Ba’al worship. Again, the consequences of not doing this resulted in their falling back into pagan ways, which they did repeatedly, leading ultimately to the punishment of exile.

 

[Dorothy]

Then it seems that God is limited in his power if this was “the only thing”.

The Lord does not interfere with our free will. He gives it to us so that we can choose Him, trust him, and love him.

You have come to the above conclusion using your finite knowledge. God is infinite. He knows what he is about, and everything he does is with our good in mind.

 

[jonfawkes]

God ordered the slaughter at Jericho etc. That’s enough reason. Not being God, I don’t have an insight into His mind. There are a few theologically valid reasons that you’ve been given. You can accept them or not.

So God could keep people from worshiping other gods without killing them? Still seems that you are limiting God. “He had to do it” -He parted the Red Sea he couldn’t turn some hearts of the pagans to let the Israelites live in peace.

Also how is it free will if he has to remove temptation for them to be loyal?

 

[Reservoir_Dog]

So God could keep people from worshiping other gods without killing them? Still seems that you are limiting God. “He had to do it” -He parted the Red Sea he couldn’t turn some hearts of the pagans to let the Israelites live in peace.

Also how is it free will if he has to remove temptation for them to be loyal?

All of a sudden, I’ve lost interest in and

 

[jonfawkes]

If we are all children of God created in his image then God created these people just to die and suffer eternal damnation. He knew they won’t convert, he knew they would fight, he new they would die, he knew they would suffer eternal damnation - all at his hand. How is this an Universal Benevolent God. He seems to only care about the Israelites. Seems to be in strong contrast to the inclusive God of the N.T.

 

[Steel_Pinwheel]

Everyone dies. That’s just as true today as it was in the OT.

I think of ancient Israel as a grand demonstration by God of how impossible it is for man to avoid sinning. God gave them very clear laws to not tolerate evil things and he had them go to extremes to avoid cultural contamination from pagans. Yet, in the end, he called Israel a whore and destroyed her.

Now, we have a new covenant. After the demonstrated inability of the law to bring righteousness, we now have grace to bring righteousness.

 

[jonfawkes]

Why would a omnipotent, omniscient, benevolent being use a method that would fail? Knowing that it would condemn His children ( we are all children of God) to everlasting torment?

 

[davidv]

Why would a omnipotent, omniscient, benevolent being use a method that would fail? Knowing that it would condemn His children ( we are all children of God) to everlasting torment?

The method did not fail. Grace is available to anyone, no matter how grievous their sin.

The only thing that condemns is freely choosing to remain unrepentant.

 

[jonfawkes]

I was referring to this statement -

Now, we have a new covenant. After the demonstrated inability of the law to bring righteousness, we now have grace to bring righteousness.

If grace is now the new improved model why was the old method utilized. People (who are children of God) were given a failing method and now burn eternally.

 

[BlueShadow123]

I think that he was one heck of a harsh guy in the olden days. But that is because I was brought up in this time period. Think about it, stoning these days for adultery or stealing would come as absurd to us, but back then it was the norm.

** Their laws were strictly enforced, but is that really a bad thing? Is it such a bad thing to keep people from doing bad things by threatening them with death? I know that I certainly would not have committed the sins now that I have if I knew the punishment was death. And I know that would definitely apply to many people too. The laws that were enforced back then would have saved me from the sins I have committed in my life, especially if the punishment was death. Being strict to preserve the word of God is not such a bad thing. So it may seem absurd, but it would keep you in line, no? **

But you have to understand that if you were told that you would die if you did not listen to God, would you really go against him?

At that point, it would have to be an idiot who would go against God if the punishment was death and damnation.

Things back them must have been much easier for them. Things were not as much in the open as now and morals were at their peak. Meaning, most strong. Things back then that happen 24/7 now would not have been put up with. When I say easier, I do not think that they had much of an evil desire as much as we do now. Also too back then, it would have been forbidden for people to talk around wearing no clothes, practically showing off their privates. But now adays, its everywhere. In the clubs, on tv, infront of kids. Its all over the place!!! Sex is literally plastered into our minds from the age of a young kid. Its hard to escape it. That is why people struggle with lust and masturbation so much these days. A lot more now than in the past, I’m sure. I have no proof of that, but its what I would assume based on what the world has come to.

Sure, there was sin back then, obviously, and life was not easy, but I do not believe they were as tempted to evil sin as we are now especially sexual sin.

Morals these days are hard to come by. Back then, they were forced. For a reason. But these days, people do not enforce morals like they did back then. Its a shame.

Why would somebody go against God if the punishment was death is beyond me.

Especially if it was painful death, like STONING.

I guess sometimes people have to learn a lesson the hard way, but sometimes its too late.
And that is exactly what happened to them. They knew the outcome if they did it, they had their chance.

God in the old testament was showing a great example of ‘tough love’.

 

[jonfawkes]

Um BS123 - are you serious? The cities Sodom and Gomorrah are the quintessential examples of sexual depravity.

 

[BlueShadow123]

Um BS123 - are you serious? The cities Sodom and Gomorrah are the quintessential examples of sexual depravity.

Oh yes, i know.

But they did not have to worry about walking in public, seeing girls wearing practically no clothes. They would not have to worry about turning on the tv and watching commercials promoting adultery. They would not have to worry about going to the store, seeing magazines promoting sex and showing naked girls and naked men. They did not have to worry about going onto a site that they feel is safe and seeing naked women plastered all over as the advertisements. They did not have to worry about cybering over the computer or on the phone. They did not have to worry about seeing people have sex at nude beaches. They did not have to worry about going to the club and getting grinded on.I know they had bath houses, but that was about one of the only things back then that could be perceived to some of them as sexual. They also did not have to worry about PORN. The kids back then would not have to see their toys promoting sex. they did not have strip clubs back then either. At least I don’t think so? I know they had hookers, but not nearly what we have now.

And we all know that the media and technology seems to be everything these days especially to younger kids. They also did not have to worry about subliminal messages, in which many of them contain sex.

Don’t get me wrong, I know many of them had some sort of sexual sin, but it was not nearly as much plastered into their minds like it is these days.

I can tell you it is so hard going into even just one store not having something SEXUAL in it.

Fight with me about this all you want, but sex is everywhere these days (more than it was back then!). And many would agree with me. This is why so many people have lusting and masturbation problems.

PS: I do not think they had sex toys back then like they do now and the probably did not have sexual clothes like they do now.

I have yet to hear from historians of the type of ‘showy’ underwear and bikinis from christ’s time.

Ever heard of the magazine cosmopolitan?

Every single magazine they produce which is read by MILLIONS of people always has about 10 pages dedicated to sex. I have even read tips on there on how to cheat and get ‘away with it’.

Are you kidding me? You really think they had stuff similar to this back in Jesus’s time? You have to be kidding me.

 

[Fenelon]

Their laws were strictly enforced, but is that really a bad thing? Is it such a bad thing to keep people from doing bad things by threatening them with death? I know that I certainly would not have committed the sins now that I have if I knew the punishment was death. And I know that would definitely apply to many people too. The laws that were enforced back then would have saved me from the sins I have committed in my life, especially if the punishment was death. Being strict to preserve the word of God is not such a bad thing. So it may seem absurd, but it would keep you in line, no?

I think you are basically right in your analysis. Sure, there are a few remarkable humans out there who savor risk and aren’t deterred one bit by the death penelty (could even be excited by it); but most people are averse to risk.

The only problem with such a draconian system, with * all * systems of justice that use fear of punishment to deter crime, is that they do not make better people. If someone refrains from theft, murder, adultery or any other wrong doing because they fear punishment then they are still a murderer, a thief, an adulterer in their heart. Society is preserved, yes, but the individual is still damned.

Maybe that’s why God eventually came up with the new covenant. He wanted to make people better, not simply exploit their fear of death. In a way, didn’t Christ reverse everything and set a new precedent? Think: he was executed , if anything, for being * too * good, for exceeding the righteousness of the pharisees! So were most of the other apostles. They all did the right thing (well, Judas excepted), and most of them paid for it with their earthly lives. Now that’s commitment! To avoid evil because you fear death is fine but nothing remarkable. But to embrace death because you love what is good? That is heroic virtue! Punishing vice and rewarding virtue makes for obedient dogs, but we humans can be better than that.

 

[MindOverMatter2]

and now burn eternally.

You don’t know that for a fact. even if people did go to hell, God would not send you there without giving you true knowledge. Its how you deal with that knowledge, this is the factor that will determine where you will end up.

 

[MindOverMatter2]

and now burn eternally.

You don’t know that for a fact. even if people did go to hell, God would not send you there without giving you true knowledge. Its how you deal with that knowledge, this is the factor that will determine where you will end up. But i agree that The OT and the NT appear to have to much of a contrast. Although i believe that The OT authors were in communication with the same God as our own, the OT seems to give a very ignorant warrior understanding of God. And their style of writing appears very much like folk tales in which they put words in to Gods mouth given their understanding of what they think God would say. In a time where your God has to be the most powerful God in order to be respected its not surprising to me if i find things in the OT that appear to be the outbursts of an ego trip.

I once read an article that suggested that when they wrote things like “destroy all the Canaanites” or something to that affect, they were indulging in exaggerated warrior talk and did not mean it literally. It seems that it was a common show of power among nations to destroy not only the men but also the women and children since if you destroy the reproductive elements of a culture, the reasoning follows that the entire culture will be destroyed. Thus to boast that you destroyed an entire peoples would be a boast of power, and to have such an order sanctioned by God is the icing on top of the cake.

I find it very difficult to believe that God would do this or say the things that the author believe him to have said. To write in the bible that God said anything is a very powerful weapon that can be used to control or destroy entire cultures. The use and abuse of divine concepts and beliefs was a common thing and it still is.

 

[MindOverMatter2]

ha!!!

 

[jonfawkes]

You don’t know that for a fact. even if people did go to hell, God would not send you there without giving you true knowledge. Its how you deal with that knowledge, this is the factor that will determine where you will end up.

No, no one knows anything as **fact **- it is a matter of faith. The wages of sin are death. They worshiped different gods, inhabited the promised land and were commanded to be destroyed by God. If anyone is in hell, a good case could be argued that they are. God can do what he wants with his creation - like a kid with a sand castle. From the human perspective it seems cruel, and not a universal God but rather a tribal one. He doesn’t have the interest of **all ** men in mind.