Struggling Young Woman

[Chevaleresse]

arrogance n. The condition or quality of being arrogant; a manifest feeling of personal superiority in rank, power, dignity, or estimation; the exalting of one’s own worth or importance to an undue degree.

Just for the heck of it…

 

[pete_29]

 

[mommamaree]

arrogance n. The condition or quality of being arrogant; a manifest feeling of personal superiority in rank, power, dignity, or estimation; the exalting of one’s own worth or importance to an undue degree.

Just for the heck of it…

Why are you insulting everyone here Chevaleresse? You are acting as if everyone else is so ignorant and wrong. I do not understand your behavior at all.

I wasn’t taking a shot at you. I was making a point about how rude you are being. That is not the same thing.

We have a difference in perspective. That is fine by me. But don’t attack me or lecture me. I was trying to be encouraging to hellosunshine because she seemed so upset. How does that warrant your responses to me, or to the other posters to who you have been very rude?

 

[Chevaleresse]

Why are you insulting everyone here Chevaleresse?

“We have a difference in perspective.”

You are acting as if everyone else is so ignorant and wrong. I do not understand your behavior at all.

Not necessarily ignorant. Wrong, probably. There are few things I despise more than people equating forgiveness with acceptance. That is wrong. That is what people here are doing. It’s going to hurt someone much more than me being harsh or “rude”.

I wasn’t taking a shot at you. I was making a point about how rude you are being. That is not the same thing.

We have a difference in perspective. That is fine by me. But don’t attack me or lecture me.

So now I’m attacking you? Wow, seriously: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Martyr_complex

I was trying to be encouraging to hellosunshine because she seemed so upset.

Yes, fine, but you don’t add guilt to the mix by making her feel that she has to accept someone’s past.

 

[mommamaree]

So now I’m attacking you? Wow, seriously: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Martyr_complex

Yup, that is what I am saying. And suggesting that I have a martyr complex is further evidence of such behavior.

I have noticed you seem to be rude in a lot of your responses in recent threads. So, I will just assume you are having a bad week. Next time you are in a better mood and ready to have a nice discussion about a topic, I will be happy to engage. Until then, I will back off and give you some space. Hope you feel better soon.

 

[Chevaleresse]

@Chevaleresse

I am going to toss you up as a troll and not dignify answering your questions. I am trying to help the OP, why not offer some help instead of insult

I have noticed you seem to be rude in a lot of your responses in recent threads. So, I will just assume you are having a bad week. Next time you are in a better mood and ready to have a nice discussion about a topic, I will be happy to engage. Until then, I will back off and give you some space. Hope you feel better soon.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ad_hominem

Great way to deal with my points, just insult me instead. You’re walking her into a bad situation. Now, let’s see if you can actually address what I’ve said rather than hide from it.

 

[mommamaree]

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ad_hominem

Great way to deal with my points, just insult me instead. You’re walking her into a bad situation. Now, let’s see if you can actually address what I’ve said rather than hide from it.

Chevaleresse,

I am not insulting you. Pointing out rudeness and asking you to stop it is not insulting.

I looked at your profile, because I was concerned about why you seem so angry with everyone here. It made sense when I read your first posted thread. You are feeling disappointed, and maybe even a bit angry. I am sorry about that.

You have guarded your chastity and I commend you for that. But you are presuming motives or agendas in other posters here where none exists. You have accused me a couple of times already of trying to guilt trip the OP. That is exactly the opposite of what I was trying to do. Please go back and read through the thread again, and try to not assume meanings other than what is actually in the posts. I have no animosity towards you. But I don’t appreciate some of your presumptions and insults. Please try to set aside your own hurt for a moment and give me and others the benefit of the doubt.

And don’t worry…we have all had bad days here at CAF. A couple of weeks ago, when I was going through some traumatic stuff, I sounded off at a person who was rude to me. They were wrong, but my rude response was wrong, too. So take heart. We are not out to get you.

Now, with regard to responding to your points in this thread, tone aside, which points did you want me to respond to which I overlooked?

 

[scree]

Well, I’m not a young woman… so I guess I’m not a virgin. Shoot!

Lol, exactly

 

[kelvinf]

So I’m not a virgin?

Dear OP,

because you have said that you are sensitive, I am just finding it too difficult to post. But you seem to be way just too concerned about yourself.

The poster who told you to ignore my post provided a very good link to the definition of virginity.

Morally, virginity signifies the reverence for bodily integrity which is suggested by a virtuous motive. Thus understood, it is common to both sexes, and may exist in a women even after bodily violation committed upon her against her will.

As I said before, our Catholic understanding of virginity is different from virginity in life sciences. The above clealy gives an example of how a raped victim could still be virgin.(!) Can you read that from the above?

Sorry, but I can only come be upfront here. Since you have clearly lost bodily integrity, there is no way you can still be a virgin!

And just get over it. What is way more important is our relationship with God. As another poster mentioned, there are lots of Saints who were very immoral. In the end, what matters is repentance and moving forward in the right direction.

Just get over this virginity stuff.

 

[kelvinf]

So I’m not a virgin?

Dear OP,

because you have said that you are sensitive, I am just finding it too difficult to post. But you seem to be way just too concerned about yourself.

The poster who told you to ignore my post provided a very good link to the definition of virginity.

Morally, virginity signifies the reverence for bodily integrity which is suggested by a virtuous motive. Thus understood, it is common to both sexes, and may exist in a women even after bodily violation committed upon her against her will.

As I said before, our Catholic understanding of virginity is different from virginity in life sciences. The above clearly gives an example of how a raped victim could still be a virgin.(!) Can you read that from the above?

Sorry, but I can only be upfront here. Since you have clearly lost bodily integrity, there is no way you can still be a virgin!

And just get over it. What is way more important is our relationship with God. As another poster mentioned, there are lots of Saints who were very immoral. In the end, what matters is repentance and moving forward in the right direction.

Just get over this virginity stuff.

 

[kelvinf]

Virgin: an absolutely chaste young woman
merriam-webster.com/dictionary/virgin

Well, I’m not a young woman… so I guess I’m not a virgin. Shoot!

Lol, exactly

I thought the understanding of that was obvious but since that isn’t the case, I will explain.

Lo, the noun virgin is feminine(!). However, in English, nouns are not usually classified as feminine, masculine or neuter. But there could be, especially in their definition; like in virgin:

• (Life Sciences & Allied Applications / Zoology) any female animal that has never mated
  thefreedictionary.com/virgin
• an absolutely chaste young woman
  merriam-webster.com/dictionary/virgin

In other languages, it is very obvious. Virgin is feminine: like in German; virgin - Jungfrau (which directly translates to “Young Woman”). That does not mean that a virgin is only a young woman. Just like the word man does not only mean “men”. You interpret it according to the context.

 

[scree]

I thought the understanding of that was obvious but since that isn’t the case, I will explain.

Lo, the noun virgin is feminine(!). However, in English, nouns are not usually classified as feminine, masculine or neuter. But there could be, especially in their definition; like in virgin:

• (Life Sciences & Allied Applications / Zoology) any female animal that has never mated
  thefreedictionary.com/virgin
• an absolutely chaste young woman
  merriam-webster.com/dictionary/virgin

In other languages, it is very obvious. Virgin is feminine: like in German; virgin - Jungfrau (which directly translates to “Young Woman”). That does not mean that a virgin is only a young woman. Just like the word man does not only mean “men”. You interpret it according to the context.

Definition according to Oxford:

Definition of virgin
noun

a person, typically a woman, who has never had sexual intercourse.

Definition according to American Heritage:

vir·gin audio (vûrjn) KEY

NOUN:

A person who has not experienced sexual intercourse.

Definition according to Collins Dictionary:

virgin (ˈvɜːdʒɪn Pronunciation for virgin )
Definitions
noun

a person, esp a woman, who has never had sexual intercourse

Definition according to Dicionary.com

vir·gin
   [vur-jin] Show IPA
noun
1.
a person who has never had sexual intercourse.

Definition according to WordSmyth:

vir·gin

pronunciation:
vuhr jihn
parts of speech:
noun, adjective

part of speech: noun
definition 1: one who has never had sexual intercourse.

Definition according to vocabulary.com:

virgin

A virgin is someone who has never had sex. After you have sex, you’ve lost your virginity.

Definition according to WordNik:

Definitions
n. A person who has not experienced sexual intercourse.

 

[kelvinf]

Definition according to Oxford:

Definition of virgin
noun

a person, typically a woman, who has never had sexual intercourse.

Definition according to American Heritage:

vir·gin audio (vûrjn) KEY

NOUN:

A person who has not experienced sexual intercourse.

Definition according to Collins Dictionary:

virgin (ˈvɜːdʒɪn Pronunciation for virgin )
Definitions
noun

a person, esp a woman, who has never had sexual intercourse

Definition according to Dicionary.com

vir·gin
   [vur-jin] Show IPA
noun
1.
a person who has never had sexual intercourse.

Definition according to WordSmyth:

vir·gin

pronunciation:
vuhr jihn
parts of speech:
noun, adjective

part of speech: noun
definition 1: one who has never had sexual intercourse.

Definition according to vocabulary.com:

virgin

A virgin is someone who has never had sex. After you have sex, you’ve lost your virginity.

Definition according to WordNik:

Definitions

n. A person who has not experienced sexual intercourse.

Virgin: an absolutely chaste young woman
merriam-webster.com/dictionary/virgin

[SIGN]Of course you can always choose the definition that suits you. I chose the one I believe applies to us Catholics. Other definitions are pretty much used in life sciences.[/SIGN]

Now, we have seen the definition from New Advent. That’s what’s relevant for us.

 

[Chevaleresse]

Chevaleresse,

I am not insulting you. Pointing out rudeness and asking you to stop it is not insulting.

You have guarded your chastity and I commend you for that. But you are presuming motives or agendas in other posters here where none exists. You have accused me a couple of times already of trying to guilt trip the OP. That is exactly the opposite of what I was trying to do. Please go back and read through the thread again, and try to not assume meanings other than what is actually in the posts. I have no animosity towards you. But I don’t appreciate some of your presumptions and insults. Please try to set aside your own hurt for a moment and give me and others the benefit of the doubt.

Now, with regard to responding to your points in this thread, tone aside, which points did you want me to respond to which I overlooked?

Oi. I’m not angry. You’re “reading in” stuff into plain text. I’m just being realistic.

People (the OP) should not be made to feel as if they are a bad person (or sinning, even) for not wanting to marry someone because of their past (or anything else). They should not be made to feel bad for having a difficult time with someone’s past. They shouldn’t feel as if forgiveness means accepting that person’s past against their inclination (see above reasons).

My major point is people confusing forgiveness with acceptance. They are not the same thing. And a person does not need to accept what they have forgiven in someone.

Also, I presume an agenda because I’ve seen many. It’s no coincidence that the people who complain that judging someone’s past is wrong have a past that would receive the same judgment. It’s like some kind of hypocritical wingmen, or something.

 

[mommamaree]

Chevaleresse,

Okay, now we are getting somewhere.

I never suggested that it is wrong or sinful to have qualifications regarding the sexual past of one’s future spouse.

The OP admitted she is having health problems due to her anxiety over her boyfriend’s history, but she honestly admits that she has done the very same thing herself with him now. For her own sake, I suggested she needs to try to forgive him. Forgiveness is important for a wounded or offended person to try to do, for their own wellbeing. She doesn’t owe forgiveness. But forgiveness can help her heal. And she is struggling with forgiving herself for committing the same actions.

We forgive people. Only God can remove the sin. We can accept people, while not approving of their sins. Reconciliation is a good thing if and when it can happen between people. But reconciliation is not demanded. In fact, reconciliation is impossible if the offender does not repent. But Jesus talks a lot about forgiveness and repentance and reconciliation. We do well to give them careful consideration when we feel wounded.

There, I think I answered all your points. Actually, I had said all of this earlier in the thread, too. Check and you will see. Let me know if I didn’t answer something

 

[mommamaree]

Oh, I missed the agenda point.

We all have a tendency to make THEIR sin out to be worse than OUR sin. As an example, someone can pride themselves on their prudence, but be completely lacking in charity. They might look down upon less frugal or prudent people and feel righteous all the while they are denying support to their brethren in need. So excessive virtue can actually become a vice.

I think that is the type of thinking that many people here are trying to use in these threads on chastity. Being chaste is important. However, judging a person by the chastity they have exhibited, even to the point of ignoring their regret for unchaste behaviors and their repentance and renewed commitment to chastity, would be unChristian. It would be the result of pride in one’s own chastity, rather than gratitude to God for enabling one to remain chaste. “there but for the grace of God go I” should be at the forefront of our minds whenever we are made aware of the sins of another.

You are right in that some people here have learned this the hard way, a humbling and painful way. But not everyone. And not everyone is willing to open up old wounds to display them here. I did earlier in the thread, but I know that if God had not sent my husband into my life as early as He did, I probably would have ended up a lot worse for the wear (as often happens to girls who grew up with the trauma that I did).

So cut everyone some slack. Look back at the OP’s words, and her subsequent responses. She acknowledges her own failures with chastity. Her regret, her confusion, her emotional struggles are what we were responding to. Her situation is different from yours, so the response should be different.

 

[Chevaleresse]

People are confusing things again. There’s a difference between judgment and evaluation. People with some kinds of behaviors in their past are less suitable than others. You cannot deny that.

People say (and I really hate this) that sexual sin is “just one area of sin” in response. It’s annoying. It has to be one of the most useless and pointless things to say. It does nothing to refute the point that sexual sin is serious in anyone’s past (and how I could expect a man to be a leader of a family if he’s failed in such a major way).

I mean, someone could commit global mass genocide and it would still be “one area of sin” (oh, but “don’t judge, you’re a sinner too”). I’d like to hear people say someone must forgive and accept that. Oh, wait, people don’t. It’s not a strange coincidence. That’s what I meant when I said “hypocritical wingmen”.

And just because you have to forgive them, just because lots of people do something, doesn’t mean they have to be accepted for that. It is perfectly acceptable to not marry someone for past behaviors. I’m sure you realize that. It is not un-Christian to reject people for certain reasons, even if they’re arbitrary.

excessive virtue can actually become a vice

I don’t think so.

 

[Pink_Lemonade]

Im a woman in her twenties and I’m struggling with a question. My boyfriend and i are devout Catholics, but we have slipped several times and went to third base. What I mean is that we had manual sex. I let him finger me and penetrate me with his fingers. We have not done anything else: nothing like oral or vaginal sex. And I know he did fingering when he was a young teen. This also stresses me out because I feel like he didn’t wait for me and that part of him should be mine.

Just want to know: are we still virgins if we’ve done that and nothing more?

Note: please be sensitive. I have emotional problems and this whole topic hurts me tremendously.

Technically, yes, you are still a virgin. While it is good that you did not do anything more, I think you are focusing on the wrong issue. What you did is over with- what matters is what you are planning to do from now on. Whether or not you are a virgin should matter less than focusing on how to be chaste going forward.

Something about your post above is concerning- “He didn’t wait for me and that part of him should be mine”. That part of him belongs to his wife. It doesn’t matter whether you’ve discussed marriage or not, his body still does not belong to you and vice versa. It is important to understand that you did the same thing to your future husband as he has done, should you not end up with him.

So, instead of focusing on whether you are a virgin or not, it will help to remember that you have the opportunity to make things right, going forward. You can go to confession, and in the future save the intimacy for your husband. I hope that you can find some peace in doing this. It’s difficult, but well worth it.

 

[kelvinf]

People are confusing things again. There’s a difference between judgment and evaluation. People with some kinds of behaviors in their past are less suitable than others. You cannot deny that.

People say (and I really hate this) that sexual sin is “just one area of sin” in response. It’s annoying. It has to be one of the most useless and pointless things to say. It does nothing to refute the point that sexual sin is serious in anyone’s past (and how I could expect a man to be a leader of a family if he’s failed in such a major way).

I mean, someone could commit global mass genocide and it would still be “one area of sin” (oh, but “don’t judge, you’re a sinner too”). I’d like to hear people say someone must forgive and accept that. Oh, wait, people don’t. It’s not a strange coincidence. That’s what I meant when I said “hypocritical wingmen”.

And just because you have to forgive them, just because lots of people do something, doesn’t mean they have to be accepted for that. It is perfectly acceptable to not marry someone for past behaviors. I’m sure you realize that. It is not un-Christian to reject people for certain reasons, even if they’re arbitrary.

Aren’t there 10 commandents? Isn’t adultery (sexual sin) for instance just “one area of sin”? It is serious but it’s not the worse sin!

And based on your theology, the OP pretty much has a bad past since she and her boyfriend have engaged several times in sexual sin. So who are you actually addressing?

 

[mommamaree]

How are you doing, hellosunshine?

Have you talked with your boyfriend about these chastity questions? I hope you are not feeling so anxious. You can return to chastity, with God’s help. Will your boyfriend support you in that? Is he feeling similarly about the unchastity in your relationship? Praying for you that you can get back on track.

Put Christ first, and found your relationship with your boyfriend upon your relationship with Christ. God bless you. Hope you can get it all figured out.