Student Loan Debt

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I think that we need to remember that going to college is about NOT job-training. It is about becoming an educated person. This is necessary for husband and wife. A good college will teach you how to think and communicate - two skills that are essential for BOTH parents. It seems that $20,000 - 30,000 is a small price to pay to become and educated person.
 
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iguana27:
Children of college educated women have significant advantages over children of parents with less education. Even if a woman is “just going to stay home,” It is imperative that she get as much education as possible.

What happens when college-educated hubby meets a sweet young, educated thing at work, and mommy is sitting home with a high school education?

Education is not wasted on a woman who stays home, even if there is debt incurred in acquiring this education.
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No offense to anyone out there, but I think the value of a college education is highly overrated unless you are going to Franciscan University or Christendom college,etc.

My experience in undergrad was that I got four years of liberal propaganda that had very little to do with truth. I might as well have gone to communist indictrination school. Every course had some kind of attack on God or on absolute truth. I had a friend who was forced to read a poem in literature class entitled “the pope’s penis”. This was at the University of Pittsburgh in case you are curious.

Now of course I could not have gotten into law school without an undergraduate degree. But strictly speaking I don’t feel like I am any more educated for having gone to a four year college.

I would not think that the girl sitting at home with a high school degree is any less intelligent or learned than the girl sitting there listening to liberal anti-Catholic communist professors at Harvard or Yale.
 
And that’s why it’s so important to go to a strong, orthodox liberal arts college.
 
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pittsburghjeff:
I would not think that the girl sitting at home with a high school degree is any less intelligent or learned than the girl sitting there listening to liberal anti-Catholic communist professors at Harvard or Yale.
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First of all, I think it is illegal in most states in this country to marry “girls.” College- aged females are “women.”

I think your choice of words may be indicative of your overall attitude towards females.

Is the high school educated woman less intelligent than the college-educated woman? No. Less learned? Yes!!!

College is an environment unlike any other where the individual is exposed to diverse views which strengthen their understanding of the world. This is not something that should be limited to only single women.

I am happy to be home with my children, and my liberal arts bachelor’s degree in mathematics was not wasted. Nor is the money that we are presently spending to pay for my MA in theology. - Even if I never earn one red cent for the rest of my life!
 
Good point about education not being “job training.”

Still, there has to be a point where practicality meets idealism. I mean, we can all go to college, become extremely educated on Shakespeare, Mendalian genetics, Criminal Justice and/or Anthropology and then go work jobs emptying wastebaskets and just say, “Well, I am educated, therefore I am a better person.”

In fact, I graduated at the height of the Bush I recession, when there were no jobs for Bio. majors. My advisor just laughed and said, “Well, maybe you can find a job cleaning test tubes.” (Career advisement was terrible at the U of Delaware back then). So, I decided to further my education. Little did I know the Clinton Boom was around the corner. I may have made a different choice if you added a few years to my diploma graduation date.

It would be true that education is valuable in and of itself but I think the question becomes, “At what price?”

Pittsburghjeff makes me back up a bit and realize, yes, the University of Delaware gave me my critical thinking ability, ability to converse at levels beyond just the high school level. I can probably go out to a bar with Pittsburghjeff, a lawyer, talk about something “collegiate” and he says, “I am sitting next to an educated person.” And maybe that makes for more options and opportunity socially throughout life. It is something that is perhaps not developed at the Community College level. And chiropractic school gave me a career in which to be independent of an employer and an opportunity at self-study the rest of my life. I am fairly financially independent but had a huge loan debt to pay off. But I question each of those choices based solely on a financial analysis. Was it worth, not just the tuition, but the time lost when another career at the community college level would have sufficed and made me nearly as fulfilled?

I have to conclude no. It isn’t worth it. So, luckily I like what I do.

Even my MD brethren are questioning this with managed care - they aren’t sending their smart children into medicine because it is just too expensive. They are sending them to other careers and letting the less than the best apply to medical school. Better off with law school. Well, this is due to other factors.

I don’t know. I just think soon college in general will be so expensive that it won’t be much of a choice for the average person in the future.

I am actually encouraging my kids (as young as they are) to just consider a trade. But, I am certain my youngest is probably college bound; he’s extremely intelligent and top of his class. I am just not certain by then $100,000 wouldn’t be better spent, giving it to him, having him put it in an index stock fund and add $50/month for the rest of his life.

Have him pick up a course here and there as he feels the need for intellectual development.

Anyway, I’m rambling. . .sorry.
 
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iguana27:
What happens when college-educated hubby meets a sweet young, educated thing at work, and mommy is sitting home with a high school education?
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I don’t agree with your example. I think it implies that a husband marries his wife for her education – not true, or should not be anyway. And, if he is going to stray for that reason, then what is to stop him from straying for any reason - age, looks, money, etc?

I agree with pittsburgh jeff that education is overrated. Don’t misunderstand me – I think education is a good thing in and of itself, but it’s not for everyone. I think it depends on God’s plan for your life.

Education can certainly be used as a good tool for stay-at-home mom’s, but so can life experience. God can use any means that He chooses for His divine plan.
 
Fortunately I do not have student loans, also due to my parent’s generosity. I did, however, go to college because where I grew up, you are not asked “if you are going to college” but “*where *are you going to college?”

I unfortunately do not feel much more educated because of my degree, but going to school where I went (a state U) brought me in contact with devout Catholics (my age) for the first time in my life. I am much more educated in terms of my faith for having been where I was, and for that I am grateful.

A college education is not just for job training, and I there are other ways of becoming educated than college, a point which homeschooling makes better than formal education. School conditions us from the time we are young that learning for the most part should be institutional, and when we are done (after high school, college, etc.) we are no longer responsible for educating ourselves. (And instead this time, from ~8-5 should be spent some other institutional way, namely working) Because of war, immigration, etc, my dad has had no more than a few years of formal education, but I have no doubt that he is more well educated than many who are now “earning” college degrees.

I hope that there will continue to be room for these knowledgeable people in our society, but it doesn’t look promising.
Right now I am working in order for me and my (in 5 weeks!) husband to be able to pay off our cars and his student loans. We hope that we will be able to start a family sooner than later (with God’s help through NFP) and then I will stay home. I plan on looking back on the 6 months I worked making less than $8 an hour, and was able to support myself, paying rent, health ins., etc. without feeling deprived, as well as other families, esp. on this forum who are making it work with what God has given them.

Sometimes the student loans (women’s) are worth it, because college is where some of us find the man who God made for us!

Sorry for the rant!
 
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iguana27:
First of all, I think it is illegal in most states in this country to marry “girls.” College- aged females are “women.”

I think your choice of words may be indicative of your overall attitude towards females.

Is the high school educated woman less intelligent than the college-educated woman? No. Less learned? Yes!!!
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Geesh. Touchy Touchy. Must be from your four year indoctrination in political correctness at a college university.

Let’s take the discussion away from male/female terms and maybe you will understand my last point better.

Person A goes to a state university and majors in sociology. His/her professors teach him/her that God is an old-fashioned idea (in History) and that there is no absolute truth (in anthropology and philosophy). In Literature, his/her professors refuse to let him/her read Shakespeare because Shakespeare is a dead white Eurpean male and the students only read books by gays and feminists. (That happened in my class at Pitt). That person takes a class called Origins of Christianity taught by an atheist which is a direct attack on Christianity. The student activity fund is used to fund a militant pro-abortion group and a homosexual group.

Person B does not go to college but works and reads on his own a variety of good classics as well as Catholic theology and apologetics books. He studies on his own Thomas Aquinas’ Summa. He teaches himself computer skills like web-page building. He also reads and studies books about American History, including the Federalist Papers, Civil War and World War II. He/she gets active in his Church and in the local pro-life group and the republican party.

Now is Person A any more learned than Person B? Heck No.
 
Pittsburghjeff,

Boy, I went to a state university, and I guess it was “liberal” but it wasn’t that bad by all accounts. Sheesh. What’s going on up there in those Pennsylvania mountains?

I think it would be wrong to characterize a state education as a bully pulpit for liberalizing American youth although certain things, like evolution are going to be taught because they are a central concept to biology and is observable in nature over and over and over and over again (to the point it almost becomes defined as law vs. theory).

I mean, as a contrast, I could picture a Christian College biology class avoiding talking about “evolution” because the origin of species defies the Book of Genesis. Hopefully, that is not the case and they are learning science at those schools.
 
Here’s something to really stir the pot!

My husband and I are both cradle Catholics. I had my first child three months after finishing law school. Two months after that, I returned to work while my husband (willingly and readily) quit his job as a high school teacher to stay at home with the baby.

Six years later, we have two children. For those six years my husband has been the one to stay home with them while I’ve been the sole breadwinner. I paid off my college debt and his debt, and make all the payments on our house and cars.

IMHO, I feel I “have it all.” Let the fur fly. 🙂

Meghan
 
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pittsburghjeff:
Geesh. Touchy Touchy. Must be from your four year indoctrination in political correctness at a college university.

Let’s take the discussion away from male/female terms and maybe you will understand my last point better.

Person A goes to a state university and majors in sociology. His/her professors teach him/her that God is an old-fashioned idea (in History) and that there is no absolute truth (in anthropology and philosophy). In Literature, his/her professors refuse to let him/her read Shakespeare because Shakespeare is a dead white Eurpean male and the students only read books by gays and feminists. (That happened in my class at Pitt). That person takes a class called Origins of Christianity taught by an atheist which is a direct attack on Christianity. The student activity fund is used to fund a militant pro-abortion group and a homosexual group.

Person B does not go to college but works and reads on his own a variety of good classics as well as Catholic theology and apologetics books. He studies on his own Thomas Aquinas’ Summa. He teaches himself computer skills like web-page building. He also reads and studies books about American History, including the Federalist Papers, Civil War and World War II. He/she gets active in his Church and in the local pro-life group and the republican party.

Now is Person A any more learned than Person B? Heck No.
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Your condescending tone does not lead me to believe that you really do have any respect for women.

If person B is so ignorant as to refer to adult females as girls then I would say that he is very unlearned. This is not about political correctness, or inclusive language, it is about respect. I do not refer to 25 year old men as boys, and I do not believe that it is appropriate to refer to adult females as girls.

I understand your point, and I disagree with it.

I also disagree with the way that you refer to adult women.

And you have no idea where I went to college. And your assumption that I am not strong enough to think on my own, and that I must be indoctrinated if I disagree with you is offensive.

It would be easier to have a discussion with you about this issue if your comments weren’t laced with anti-female sentiment.
 
Okay back to the original discussion about whether it is possible, due to the manner in which college is currently funded and the time at which these decisions are made, for couples who wish to marry and begin a family immediately following either college or graduate school to have one parent regardless of gender to be able to stay home with the children.

I think the answer currently is no. And I think Jeff has a valid point that in making these current decisions the thought to what follows college (i.e. the rest of our lives) is not being taken into account when these decisions are being made. Currently college is not in fact seen as trade school except for those entering pre-law or pre-med programs where they have considered what comes next.

But I think this is a bigger problem than just marriage and family… I think it extends into the realm of “what am I truly getting for my money…” If someone sat down and told you what the payments on that $100,000 college education were going to cost you, would you be willing to pay that simply to “be a better person” in the vague liberal arts sense of the word? Or would you demand more bang for your buck?

And further… if either gender sat down and said “by paying this much for this education, I am going to have to give up these things in five years” how many would pay it? But they buy into the mythology that it makes a better life immediately out of college and all college graduates come out millionaires and live like their parents right away and they are going to be the CEO of the corporation right after their first promotion. I’m not saying college doesn’t expand your mind and doesn’t expand your choices and doesn’t improve your life. But so many people seem to buy a bill of goods when they think about the extent to which this is true. Like somehow it’s a substitute for time and hardwork. It is an investment. But it is an investment whose value should be analyzed, not accepted blindly and paid for carte blanc.
 
Couple of things I’d like to address that haven’t been pointed out:
  1. I am 34 & you can call me a girl any time you like!
  2. I think everyone needs to** get out of this all-or-nothing attitude when it comes to moms working**. She could work at something very part time, with that $ just going toward her student loan or her personal spending or whatever else you ***agree together * ** to designate it for. I’m mom of 4 and I work a few hrs a week and have thru most of my motherhood;helps keep me sane, but the children are always first. Mother in Law or Husband care for kids, my children have never been to day care.
  3. As far as debts go, student loans ain’t so bad. Compared to high interest credit cards or car loans…much, much lower! I’d highly recommend paying off your other, higher interest items first. We don’t make car payments, at all, ever! Huge waste.
  4. Being educated before marriage, means a woman is in a better position should her husband die or God forbid, leave her.
  5. Regarding the previous generations getting by on one paycheck…on average they just did not indulge in all the luxuries that we have come to see as necessities…they just didn’t. Mom cooked, restaurant meals were rare; mom cut hair, sewed curtains…didn’t get her nails done weekly, didn’t shop at Abercrombie or any other $35 t-shirt store.
  6. Perhaps I am mistaken, but I detect a tone of bitterness in Pittsburgh Jeffs post about the situation. PittJeff,I am hoping that you knew about this debt before the marriage & it wasn’t just recently revealed. Please discuss this together, gather some opinions here and from family or other trusted people(especially those who respect and appreciate the Church’s teachings on children & families). Make the decisions together. If you buckle down, you’d be surprised how fast you could pay off something like this. Sacrifice some meals out or $$ spent on hobbies, toward that debt. I think it’s important to make a plan, write it out & stick with it. I’m prob a bit older than you, and trust me 2 or 3 years goes by real fast!
 
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Ourladyguadalup:
Couple of things I’d like to address that haven’t been pointed out:
  1. I am 34 & you can call me a girl any time you like!
  2. I think everyone needs to** get out of this all-or-nothing attitude when it comes to moms working**. She could work at something very part time, with that $ just going toward her student loan or her personal spending or whatever else you ***agree together ***to designate it for. I’m mom of 4 and I work a few hrs a week and have thru most of my motherhood;helps keep me sane, but the children are always first. Mother in Law or Husband care for kids, my children have never been to day care.
  3. As far as debts go, student loans ain’t so bad. Compared to high interest credit cards or car loans…much, much lower! I’d highly recommend paying off your other, higher interest items first. We don’t make car payments, at all, ever! Huge waste.
  4. Being educated before marriage, means a woman is in a better position should her husband die or God forbid, leave her.
  5. Regarding the previous generations getting by on one paycheck…on average they just did not indulge in all the luxuries that we have come to see as necessities…they just didn’t. Mom cooked, restaurant meals were rare; mom cut hair, sewed curtains…didn’t get her nails done weekly, didn’t shop at Abercrombie or any other $35 t-shirt store.
  6. Perhaps I am mistaken, but I detect a tone of bitterness in Pittsburgh Jeffs post about the situation. PittJeff,I am hoping that you knew about this debt before the marriage & it wasn’t just recently revealed. Please discuss this together, gather some opinions here and from family or other trusted people(especially those who respect and appreciate the Church’s teachings on children & families). Make the decisions together. If you buckle down, you’d be surprised how fast you could pay off something like this. Sacrifice some meals out or $$ spent on hobbies, toward that debt. I think it’s important to make a plan, write it out & stick with it. I’m prob a bit older than you, and trust me 2 or 3 years goes by real fast!
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I have been reading through trying to figure out how to sum up all my feelings about this thread, and you HIT THE NAIL ON THE HEAD!

I especially think point #4 is extremely important. (Unless PittJeff wants to spend what would’ve gone toward student loan payments instead on a big huge life insurance policy and disability insurance.)
 
Thanks guys (and “girls” 🙂 ) for the insights and concerns.

I didn’t mean to particularize my own situation when I started this thread. In fact, our situation is fine. We communicate very well and get along great. My wife is going to go back to school for another year (with my encouragement) to get an additional certification which will make her more employable. I am going to support us on my salary and we are going to devote whatever income she has to her student loan debt.
I am glad that she will be employable if something happens to me.

I started this thread really as food for thought. I know that if my wife could do it differently (Community College, not such an expensive grad school, working during school) she would. Its just that the decisions she made back then are affecting her now. I only want what she wants. If she wanted a career, I would support her in that. But I know she doesn’t want to work and hates the fact that the student loan debt forces her to work.

My point was that young people need to think through borrowing decisions when it comes to student loans and consider the future consequences. And women should understand that unless they are going to marry someone really wealthy that when they make the decision to borrow a lot of money, they are making the decision to work outside the home. And thats OK, if that is what they want.
 
Just my two cents, in an otherwise very interesting discussion!

First cent:
As a high school teacher, I see an assumption on the part of 99% of the population that EVERYONE MUST GO TO COLLEGE. And I think that’s not as it ought to be. (Let me say, as a mom, I am definitely pushing my kids to keep college in mind!) But I see kids in my classroom every day that really should not be pushed into college. Whether it’s for academic reasons, social reasons, personal reasons, whatever. Some of these kids WILL be ready for college at some point in the future, and some really will not. There are kids in every class who do NOT want to go to college, but are left feeling like they have no choice. That’s a recipe for disaster.

I agree with a previous poster who said no one asks “Are you going to college?”…everyone asks “WHERE are you going to college?”

I think we ( as a society) would do well to leave college as one option among many: business school, technical school, military service, etc. Yes, I know those other options are already there, but admit it, they are looked at as second rate. Truth be told, my husband thinks our whole society would do well to require 2 years of military service from everyone right after high school! 😉

We had a girl–an intelligent, thoughtful girl–graduate from our high school a few years ago, who said she was NOT going to college. She wanted to get married (hadn’t found a guy yet!) and be a stay at home mom. She SAID that. Sheesh. She took flak from almost EVERYONE!!! A very few of us were supportive of her. She didn’t have a fiance at the time, so she did go to a local business school and take some classes. As far as I can remember, only one other teacher and I said supportive things to her about it. Every other teacher was on her case about it!! Like it was a HORRIBLE thing to condemn herself to a life of being a mom “with no education”.

I felt bad for her! She really had to stand her ground. (By the way, she babysat my two youngest kids this school year, is now married and just had her first baby–very prematurely–this week.)

We–as a Catholic group, and as a society at large–need to support girls (AND women) who decide that college is not what they want to do. Being a stay at home mom is a noble career in itself, and we need to support the choice to do that–even when a girl chooses that over college.

…to be continued…
 
  1. Having it all
This is a myth.

Meghan, you rock!! I’m so impressed and happy that you and your husband have such a great arrangement. My husband would KILL to be able to stay home with our kids!! You do have it all–but it’s because your husband can stay home. The myth is that mom AND dad can work, have great careers (which typically means spending the kind of time at work that is necessary for success and promotion at work) and perfect families.

We both work fulltime, but I am the teacher in the family. I don’t know that we could HAVE five kids (which we do!) if I weren’t a teacher. My income helps the family budget. But what enables US to have a successful family is the fact that I am off for a week (with the kids) between Christmas and New Years. I am off all summer (with the kids). I am off on snow days (with the kids). I can take sick days, personal days, you name it. I work, but I still have the time to devote to the kids. We couldn’t do it if I had a job like my husband’s.

Jeff, this is a good topic, and obviously a difficult one.

I think women (and men!) are pushed into college. Many women SHOULD and DO go to college, and that’s fine, but I agree that the burden of student loans makes it nearly impossible for that woman (or man) then to be a stay at home.

Let’s blame the colleges. Tuition costs are through the roof. If college education were a bit more affordable, this wouldn’t be an issue.
 
kristalyn said:
2. Having it all

This is a myth.

The myth is that mom AND dad can work, have great careers (which typically means spending the kind of time at work that is necessary for success and promotion at work) and perfect families.

…

Jeff, this is a good topic, and obviously a difficult one.

I think women (and men!) are pushed into college. Many women SHOULD and DO go to college, and that’s fine, but I agree that the burden of student loans makes it nearly impossible for that woman (or man) then to be a stay at home.

Let’s blame the colleges. Tuition costs are through the roof. If college education were a bit more affordable, this wouldn’t be an issue.
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Hey has anyone heard this – a friend of mine said that at Christendom College, they make you stop going and work for a while if your loans get to a certain amount. What a fantastic idea I think.

Also – I love the idea of two years service – Jesuit Volunteer Corps would be a great way to do it. How many of us would have greatly benefitted from that, looking back?

On a more personal note, I think we may have one year between paying my husband’s law school loans off and starting college for our oldest… if we’re lucky.
 
This makes me think of my 4 year old daughter.When I ask her what she thinks God wants her to do when she grows up, she ALWAYS says “a mother”. She wants more than anything to be a good mom when she grows up. Of course, she is only 4.

On one hand, I want to support and encourage her because the world needs good mamas. I know that that was all I wanted, but I didn’t know if it was going to happen.

On the other hand, the reality response is oh, wait until you are out of college, etc, etc, etc. It is almost as if I want to say “don’t you think there is something else out there for you?” Then I think "what am I saying about being a stay at home mom? I do love it, but sometimes the society makes me feel…different.

I do believe that college is not for everyone, I saw it with both of my brothers, who are mechanics, good mechanics. I think learning a trade needs to be emphasized, especially in the boys. That doesn’t mean that they can’t go to college, but learning how to work with their hands is great for them also.
 
THANK YOU, Our Lady! I particularly appreciate the Low Interest Rate point. I’m no feminist, but I don’t think I’ve ever been more outraged at a man than I am right now that I’ve stumbled upon this thread.
 
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