Student Loan Debt

[Little_Lamb]

I can see hardly any good from attending a secular university. I have many friends who did, and wow did their faith suffer (or disappear entirely)- and their tuition $ was supporting anti-Christian curriculum and smut filled indoctrination. So, if one does attend college, one should attend a faithful Christian school that has the mandatum.

For Christian men, I don’t see “whether or not to go to college” as an issue. I have noticed that employers are treating BA applicants like they are dime-a-dozen. MAs seem to be where it’s at now. However, one does need to weigh the cost against what your job would pay when you get out…that will very quickly dictate if you can afford to pay those loans off…EVER!

Very few in our country have a reason for being uneducated, male or female. Even if you cannot afford college or cannot attend for some other reason, you can go to local public or church libraries and read and try to broaden your mind that way…form your own curriculum, form a group where you discuss what you have been learning…whatever. Sitting on your intellectual hiney doing nothing is not a good witness and is a poor preparation for marriage and motherhood. :tsktsk:

For Christian women, ah, now this is where it gets sticky. If college is a potential option for you but you would need student loans, do you not go to college and educate yourself through personal study and save lots of money? Or do you attend college to gain maturity, wisdom, fun, life-long friends and perhaps a future spouse while racking up debt? Do you attend community college first and then transfer to a four year to save money, while subjecting yourself to craziness and wacky professors the first two years? Or a faithful four year school right from the start? These are difficult choices.

I attended a four year Christian college. I made life-long friends there and my faith grew immensely. I met my wonderful husband there. I feel that I received a fabulous education. However, I am still paying off my student loans and it is over 8 years since I have graduated! Yipes! We wanted to start a family after we got married, but this simply was not possible with both of our student loans. I was forced to work for six years. I have cried many tears over this; we had to delay our family for financial reasons - at times it was difficult to even make rent! We now have a beautiful daughter - we have made even more sacrifices to enable me to stay home with her. Money is extremely tight for us - we eeek by every month. But she is worth every ounce of our sacrifice - she is my precious angel and I refuse to leave her!

Young Christian ladies need to prayerfully consider whether or not they should attend (if you would need student loans). Weigh the benefits against the debt load that you would incur. If you do want to quit working or have children, you might not be able to. Food for thought.

 

[Enid]

LabChick:

Women go to college because they are human beings, not just machines that pop out babies. When I finish medical school next year, I’ll be over $150,000 in debt and, based on the lives I’ve saved and people I’ve touched, I’m proud of every penny.

LC

But are you married and do you have a family?? If not and you plan on getting married and becoming a stay at home mother it will be very hard for just one person to pay off this type of debt if not almost impossible.
It is very honorable that you are saving people and touching people just be careful that if you have children you do not make them less important then others and that you put all your efforts into saving your own children and touching the children God blesses you with.

 

[Enid]

Ourladyguadalup:

1. Regarding the previous generations getting by on one paycheck…on average they just did not indulge in all the luxuries that we have come to see as necessities…they just didn’t. Mom cooked, restaurant meals were rare; mom cut hair, sewed curtains…didn’t get her nails done weekly, didn’t shop at Abercrombie or any other $35 t-shirt store.

I agree with everything but this. My husband and I live on very little we rarely go out to eat, cut all my families hair (6 children), all clothes are given to my family or bought second hand, last time and only time I had my nails done was for my wedding 16 years ago. Yet we are not making it on one income because of having to pay off student loans. My family sacraficed so my husband could go to college and get a degree so that he could have a job that should support his family but because of bad situations this has not worked out. Now you look at 60 to 70 years ago it was possible to live on one income comfortably taxes were less and everything was geared to one income. Even though we have tried to give up almost everything but essencials I am taking babysitting jobs to get us out of the mess we got into trying to live on less than $20,000 a year. And my husband is working 2 jobs now.

I am not saying it is impossible to live on one income if we had made better choices and did better with money we had made a few years ago we would have not been in such a hole as we are now and we could scape by with what my husband makes now.

 

[KCT]

pittsburghjeff:

My point was that young people need to think through borrowing decisions when it comes to student loans and consider the future consequences. QUOTE]

This I agree with. We have an 18 yr old daughter who will do one more year at the community college and then transfer somewhere. She made an off-hand comment not long ago about taking out student loans. I plan to share with her what you’ve mentioned.

—KCT

 

[just5kids]

Lab Chick wrote:

“When I finish medical school next year, I’ll be over $150,000 in debt and, based on the lives I’ve saved and people I’ve touched, I’m proud of every penny.”

Between my husband’s medical school loans and my law school loans, we had a similar debt; however, we are poised to pay off the final Sallie Mae by year’s end after paying off over $165,000 in the last 18 months. We have no “pride” in our stupidity in taking out these loans. He could have done the four year military obligation and we would be long past that repayment now and debt free (and I know all the arguments against going this route, but of course, there are other routes to med school debt forgiveness). There are many ways I could have paid for law school at the state school I attended without debt, but we figured it was low interest money, available for the asking, so why not? We learned a few years after residency and law school, however, that the “why not” is that, even with a big shovel, it is perilous to dig your way out of a mountain of debt. It is almost impossible to make a life change, such as to a new location, when you have an established patient base, even if your income just gets you by, because there is a likelihood of finanacial sacrifice to reestablish yourself elsewhere.
Most MDs we know accept their medical school loans as akin to a mortgage, knowing it will take a career to pay it off. Meanwhile, they complete residency, finance a car they “deserve” after all those years of hard work and suffering through jelly sandwiches while their peers go on to post-college careers that allow nights out and new furniture, and accrue even more debt to make up for the lost years of accumulation of things.
Others complain that they cannot stay home because of their large debt. If anyone–not just doctors-- who faces student loan repayment would make sacrifices on the outset and forego immediate gratification (in material terms–“stuffitis”) to kick it and pay the loans back without accruing additional debt, financial security will follow at whatever income you make. But hardly anyone does this. Yes, it is hard to pay back student loans when you also have two car payments, a house note on property two to three times your income, and a life lived paycheck to paycheck because having a “regular” life gets in the way. And all of these other things, plus cable bills, yearly vacations, eating out because we’re too tired otr busy after work to cook, are normal. So many dear friends and acquaintances who make a fraction of our income have given us their children’s hand me downs from stores I wouldn’t imagine regularly shopping in. My husband drives a ten year old car, a joke compared to the newer (and financed) cars driven by every one of his employees, including the $9/hour recptionist.
(cont’d)

 

[just5kids]

But isn’t it more intelligent, as pittsburg jeff suggests, to avoid student loans at the outset? I didn’t have any undergrad debt because I waited tables in college. Scholarships are readily available to any high school graduate willing to spend their summer researching and applying for them. It might take unlimited hours, and you might be turned down for 950+ of the thousand for which you apply, but if you get 30 scholarships at $1000 each, you’re good for four years.
Obviously, it is too late for most of us, who long ago chose to do what is “normal” and finance our educations.
But to labchick, I say, consider this: there are still plenty of places in America where there is no managed care, low malpractice insurance rates, and high insurance reimbursement. Unfortunately, they are not in midtown Manhattan or the Bay area. We were so stubborn about returning to our big city life after residency, so that we could enjoy all the fruits of our labors. After practicing eight years, we were no closer to paying off our loans or winning at money than the day we received our professional degrees. After searching and hoping for a way to fix our financial decisions within the city where we lived, we made a dramatic decision to move to a really ugly place, but one where doctors are still independent physicians. He insisted on a first-rate hospital and a specific number in his call group, but after a nationwide search of over a year, we moved our four kids eight hours away from everything we knew and believe we have truly found our last stop. We also insisted on an in-town airport with access to major carriers, and that has helped immensely, but we gave up four star french restaurants, the opera, and proximity to a Lexus dealer–we didn’t much use them anyway (esp. since his clunker is a Volvo!). Today he is poised to triple his income of a year and a half ago, we cut our home value by two thirds, and our lifestyle costs hardly make a dent. So our loans are gone, as are our payments on anything except a house, but we expect to pay that off in less than a decade as well. A medical career isn’t hopeless, although I will admit we aren’t encouraging our children in that direction (mostly I suggest a vocation).
(cont’d)

 

[just5kids]

ANYONE can do this, not just because we have a big shovel–remember, we had lots more debt than most people. And I left law after four years to stay home with my kids, still with the debt, and we suffered giving up that salary, even with a doctor’s income. I know from reading posts here some will say that it is not possible for them, but I say it is, even if it means a dramatic career change for the breadwinner or eating lots of tuna fish ( I am specifically thinking of Enid, and I agree, you are not living a life of luxury or indulging. You have an income issue that you will need to address to get ahead, because as I am sure you know, at $20k a year, you are well below the average household family income).
And just in case you wonder where all this comes from, I previously recommended herein Dave Ramsey, on radio or in numerous of his books–he changed our lives and encouraged us to become debt free, to live on what we make, and his stories of people who have accumulated wealth on a fraction of our income and with a disproportionate amount of debt will inspire you.

 

[pittsburghjeff]

Thank you all for weighing in on this. I guess there are others who have the same thoughts/experiences we’ve had.

I also note that I touched a major raw nerve with some. Especially the person who said she was never so angry at a man as to when she stumbled on this thread. I could not have imagined that raising this topic of carefulness in considering student loans would have drawn anger from anyone on this board.
But for some reason it did.

But I guess any kind of a debt decision is a real problem that real people have to live with. It is just like if you were buying a car. Before taking out a large loan you would ask yourself:

1. Do I really want this car?
2. Is it really worth the money I am going to spend?

Those are smart questions to ask before going into debt over anything.

Maybe another problem is that by their nature student loan decisions are made by young people sometimes before they even learn the real value of money. A lot of times these are 18 year olds making these big decisions to borrow. Very few people that age are required to make decisions about getting a mortgage for a house, but many have to make decisions about borrowing student loans that will last for years. A lot of 18 years olds don’t know what they want out of life (what career, marriage, the priesthood) and they end up making a decision to borrow big bucks and then changing their mind at a more mature age but then it is too late.

 

[Scanner]

Just5kids,

It was interesting to hear your story on managed care + malpractice. I am a chiropractor in a heavily penetrated managed care environment often dreaming of getting out.

Thanks.

 

[marciadietrich]

My saga with student loans is unusual. I had 2 years of college and around $10,000 in debt before I entered the army, and I went in under a plan which paid my loans off after I had remained in service for a certain period of time.

So after I got out of the Army free from the student loans and with money saved under the VEAP program I went back to try to finish my degree. I was married and had my oldest son that first year back to school. I managed to take a year or so to get an AA degree in Accounting( a switch in majors and did the AA just in case I couldn’t finish the BA). That I came out okay because it was at the community college. Was able to pay for it all with the VEAP money and working part-time.

After that I went to a 4 yr private university since the local 4 year public at that point was not accredited. Got another almost $10,000 in loans to finish school. Had my second son by that time. Most of my army money had gone to pay for child care for two young kids and gas for commuting.

Having spent time away from the boys finishing school, I took time off after graduating. I didn’t really want to go to work. My husband had been working for several years and was making a decent salary. He had hardly any college and never finished college. I never went to work. For a while I’d pay on the loans, then get behind (it was always top on the list of bills to put off) and then I’d get a deferment or forebearance. Over ten years later I still have student loan debt to pay off and my oldest boy is going to be college bound in another 2 years.

Was it worth the money? I think so, as it never hurts to be educated even if you do stay home with the kids. But I think it is best if the debt can be avoided and work, save, etc. instead of loans. Probably smarter to go to state schools and community colleges to avoid the huge debt. Women do need to consider how it will effect their family life even if they aren’t married yet. Women can’t have children their whole life, it is a limited window. Women usually desire to spend time with their young children. Catholics would have to perpetually be using NFP (which should be an exception for serious situations) given a scenario of being in debt and needing to work … and the debt will increase when you have kids and need a bigger house and bigger vehicles.

For us the student loan debt wasn’t the hugest debt we had, but it was one more thing on top of other debts and maintaining a household on one salary. (Now 2 households on one salary as we are living seperately.)

Good subject for discussion.

Marcia

 

[goingthere]

With three girls of my own, they all will be encouraged to go to universities, and if you, there boyfriends want them to stay home- I suggest that you get your nose to the grind stone and make yourself worthy.

 

[PiercedBySorrow]

We are an one income family and we are doing just fine. My husband isn’t a doctor or a lawyer… he is a elementary school teacher.
I am a stay at home mother with a college education. We are fortunate that my education was completely paid for so we do not have a student loan for me.
We do have a student loan for my husband… about $30,000 for his BS and masters.
We might not own a house or an expensive car… but we are raising our children.
It’s a sacrifice… but well worth it.

 

[PiercedBySorrow]

We are an one income family and we are doing just fine. My husband isn’t a doctor or a lawyer… he is a elementary school teacher.
I am a stay at home mother with a college education. We are fortunate that my education was completely paid for so we do not have a student loan for me.
We do have a student loan for my husband… about $30,000 for his BS and masters.
We might not own a house or an expensive car… but we are raising our children.
It’s a sacrifice… but well worth it.

 

[Fitz]

pittsburghjeff:

Thanks guys (and “girls” ) for the insights and concerns.

My point was that young people need to think through borrowing decisions when it comes to student loans and consider the future consequences. And women should understand that unless they are going to marry someone really wealthy that when they make the decision to borrow a lot of money, they are making the decision to work outside the home. And thats OK, if that is what they want.

Jeff, you are making a mature point. I know that when young people are making these life decisions they don’t look down the road a few years to understand what it might mean. I tried to tell my kids. They don’t always want to listen to their parents.

However, I did have a college loan, but managed to stay at home one year after marriage when my daughter was born. I did not have a cell phone, a T.V., new furniture, or a second car, or many new clothes. I did not belong to a health club, nor did my husband. I did not make many long distance calls and I wrote letters home (we were out of state from family). We made some Christmas gifts our first year married. Imagine, we didn’t have a computer or email- not invented for homes yet! I did not turn on the air conditioner until I was really really needing it. I actually hung laundry out to dry. I know I don’t have to go on. This was 29 years ago.
Flash forward: I have 4 children. They believe in computers, cell phones, T.V.s, DVD machines, and on and on. I know they will have a much harder time than I did. I feel like I never taught them that in the beginning, less is better. I tried, but they saw so much growing up and they picked up the materialsitic values of our society although we as parents battled it. My kids are actually pretty thrifty, but they still outspend me and their age. If that makes sense. They are Catholic, but they are American through and through.
College loans are just the beginning of the problem. The education is worth it, but getting an undergraduate degree cheaper sometimes is better unless you are in Medical School or a very particular major.
I do know that there is never a perfect time financially to have a child. Let God help you, because in this He does know best. I wouldn’t trade my kids for any material thing.
Be realistic and don’t expect to live like your parents first year into your marriage.

 

[SHEMP]

LabChick:

Women go to college because they are human beings, not just machines that pop out babies. When I finish medical school next year, I’ll be over $150,000 in debt and, based on the lives I’ve saved and people I’ve touched, I’m proud of every penny.

LC

My wife and I are physicians. We were lucky and had minimal debt. I went to state schools and lived at home. She had a generous grandmother.

I choose to work at a Catholic university medical center. The pay is good but less than one third of the going rate in the private world.

My wife would love to stop working and stay at home with the kids. She has a number of problems to over come to do this. If she quits then we have to pay “tail” insurance. This is very expensive for a pediatrician since you need this coverage for life.

Another option is for her to work part-time. She is working two days per week right now. She is getting tremendous pressure to work full-time because of malpractice insurance premiums are not much cheaper for part-time doctors compared to full-time doctors. The malpractice premium is the single largest overhead cost in a practice.

She would pay to quit and she pays to work.

PS: You did not save any lives! Only God saves lives. We just do our humble work her on earth.

 

[TeAmo]

Hi, you guys-

I am sorry, but I had to laugh at a lot of these posts. Quite a few of them seem to assume that you’re going to find a guy to marry right after you graduate from high school. I’m a college student right now- not dating anyone. What am I supposed to do in the years inbetween “finding the right guy” if I don’t go to college? What if I don’t find him till I’m thirty-five? Should I sacrifice years of learning and a decent job with decent pay in the meantime? What if I don’t find one at all, but discover later in life that I’m really meant to be single-or join the religious life(quite a few orders require a college degree)? In the meantime I’m stuck cleaning toilets.

 

[Fitz]

TeAmo:

Hi, you guys-

I am sorry, but I had to laugh at a lot of these posts. Quite a few of them seem to assume that you’re going to find a guy to marry right after you graduate from high school. I’m a college student right now- not dating anyone. What am I supposed to do in the years inbetween “finding the right guy” if I don’t go to college?

This is so correct. I was 27 before marrying, and I was happy that I had finished college. You make the best point of all for women to be educated. No one knows their future!