Student loans and NFP

[Syri]

I personally see nothing wrong with using welfare and find the term “welfare baby” very degrading. I always thought it was funny how people assail food stamps and WIC yet will not hesitate to apply for unemployment compensation, use public education and apply for financial aid, apply for medicare and social security benefits, etc. It’s pretty subjective IMO what people find is acceptable to take from government and what is not acceptable.
**
But anyways, yeah many people go overboard with reasons to use nfp**. Ex.) insisting that people have to be near death or be living worst than the poorest of the poor in Africa to use NFP.

Another bad thing is insisting people need to get permission from a priest to use NFP. I have never read or heard of the church requiring such a thing. It seems like they are legislating extra laws on believers with that one. Sure, getting advice from a priest may be wise, but it’s not really necessary or really practical in every case.

Like the one user who goes around saying you must have GRAVE reason, when the actual wording is JUST. You do not have to be dying to use NFP.

My husband and I, our financial situation changed soon before marriage. We’re living with his parents, in a small area, we make, together, less than $150 a week. He’s starting school full time so we can earn our own way, meaning I’ll be the soul providor, working for his mother for about 60 a week and otherwise tending the home. I’m disabled visually, I can’t drive to a different job, I work from the home. We have no assets to fall back on, no money for anything aside from our essential needs, and we’ve decided our children deserve a more stable home to be born into. Yet I’m sure many here will readily condemn me. I’m not trying hard enough, I should get a better job. It seems to be the mentality here that you are REQUIRED to overhaul your life, change evrything about you, so you CAN squeeze in as many baby’s as your body will allow, instead of doing as the church allows and planning your family as you prayerfully see fit.

I don’t CARE if others are doing worse, I don’t CARE if some woman in Africa is dirt poor but loves all 22 of her kids. I don’t CARE if the Duggars can do it. All I care about is that we’re doing what we can with the present circumstances, and they are NOT the conditions I want to bring a baby into.

 

[Bookcat]

From the Compendium --issued by Pope Benedict XVI:

1. When is it moral to regulate births?

2368-2369
2399

The regulation of births, which is an aspect of responsible fatherhood and motherhood, is objectively morally acceptable when it is pursued by the spouses without external pressure; when it is practiced not out of selfishness but for serious reasons; and with methods that conform to the objective criteria of morality, that is, periodic continence and use of the infertile periods.

1. What are immoral means of birth control?

2370-2372

Every action - for example, direct sterilization or contraception - is intrinsically immoral which (either in anticipation of the conjugal act, in its accomplishment or in the development of its natural consequences) proposes, as an end or as a means, to hinder procreation.

---

I would also note that in order for the reasons to use NFP to avoid for a time etc …in order for them to be “just reasons” they need to be “serious reasons”…which of course does not mean only life or death things…and which can take many forms in life…something a couple need to judge before God (perhaps with outside advice…say from a good Priest etc).

 

[Bookcat]

From the Compendium --issued by Pope Benedict XVI:

1. When is it moral to regulate births?

2368-2369
2399

The regulation of births, which is an aspect of responsible fatherhood and motherhood, is objectively morally acceptable when it is pursued by the spouses without external pressure; when it is practiced not out of selfishness but for serious reasons; and with methods that conform to the objective criteria of morality, that is, periodic continence and use of the infertile periods.

1. What are immoral means of birth control?

2370-2372

Every action - for example, direct sterilization or contraception - is intrinsically immoral which (either in anticipation of the conjugal act, in its accomplishment or in the development of its natural consequences) proposes, as an end or as a means, to hinder procreation.

---

I would also note that in order for the reasons to use NFP to avoid for a time etc …in order for them to be “just reasons” they need to be “serious reasons”…which of course does not mean only life or death things…and which can take many forms in life…something a couple need to judge before God looking to what the Church has stated about such (perhaps with outside advice…say from a good Priest etc).

 

[Bookcat]

Like the one user who goes around saying you must have GRAVE reason, when the actual wording is JUST. You do not have to be dying to use NFP.

See last post.

 

[puzzleannie]

So
My main question. Do you think it would be okay to use NFP after marrying to be able pay debt down faster to a more manageable level for one income? Postponing pregnancy for a year or two could allow each spouse to earn an income. ?

sorry I am not understanding the dilemma, in my generation we got married, had kids, finished school, and most of us worked at least for some of those years our kids were growing up, and paid on our student loans, got mortgages etc. Actually made my last student loan payment the exact month we paid the first installment of DD’s college tuition.

short answer, it is not wrong for a couple to use NFP to delay pregancy for any prudent reason, and their own judgment informed by prayer is a reliable guide, but having a hard time seeing why it is necessary. However, that was another time and place. Don’t know why you are worried about this now, but why not put your priorities in order, and worry about what is of concern today, not making up problems for tomorrow.

 

[ryecroft]

One must judge before God…

(I am not so sure though that such would be a serious reason… Debt is a fact of life for the college grad in the west… one can provide for ones children with less than one thinks…at least the first!..families in other poorer countries have been seen to be happier with more children and less than what we in the west tend to look think is needful)

One can really one just consolidates the loans and gets a lower smaller payment…and well one is going to pay them for years anyhow.

An it is very good for the marriage for children to come sooner than later…and do not count on stats in terms of infertility…my wife was was 29 when we married…and we have had a only one child born to us thus far …she is now 37 …and that was after seeing a doctor trained by the Paul VI institute and a pilgrimage to Lourdes (the rest have gone ahead of us to God).

Compendium of the Catechism issued by Pope Benedict XVI

1. When is it moral to regulate births?

2368-2369
2399

The regulation of births, which is an aspect of responsible fatherhood and motherhood, is objectively morally acceptable when it is pursued by the spouses without external pressure; when it is practiced not out of selfishness but for serious reasons; and with methods that conform to the objective criteria of morality, that is, periodic continence and use of the infertile periods.

1. What are immoral means of birth control?

2370-2372

Every action - for example, direct sterilization or contraception - is intrinsically immoral which (either in anticipation of the conjugal act, in its accomplishment or in the development of its natural consequences) proposes, as an end or as a means, to hinder procreation

---

Compendium of Social Doctrine

“232. The family contributes to the social good in an eminent fashion through responsible motherhood and fatherhood, the spouses’ special participation in God’s work of creation[519]. The weight of this responsibility must not be used as a justification for being selfishly closed but must guide the decisions of the spouses in a generous acceptance of life. “In relation to physical, economic, psychological and social conditions, responsible parenthood is exercised both in the duly pondered and generous decision to have a large family, and in the decision, made for serious reasons and in respect of the moral law, to avoid for a time or even indeterminately a new birth”[520]. The motivations that should guide the couple in exercising responsible motherhood and fatherhood originate in the full recognition of their duties towards God, towards themselves, towards the family and towards society in a proper hierarchy of values.”

vatican.va/roman_curia/pontifical_councils/justpeace/documents/rc_pc_justpeace_doc_20060526_compendio-dott-soc_en.html

Get a copy of the book “Covenanted Happiness” by Msgr. Cormac Burke (who served on the Roman Rota)

I’m sorry where do you get that it’s better for “An it is very good for the marriage for children to come sooner than later” ?
Personally, my husband and I believe it would be irresponsible to begin having children while having such a high debt - it’s not a good example to the children. And what if one of those children did have a huge medical problem with big costs? Personally, we wouldn’t want to bring kids into the world if we were just barely ‘getting by’ - we’ve been brought up that this is irresponsible and that we should do our best to give the child/children that we have the best advantages in life. And personally, we’re glad that after we first got married we were able to have time just to ‘ourselves’ to get used to living with one another and just being a couple alone. If we had gotten pregnant (which we did at one point while using NFP) - and been able to carry the child to full term (health problems) - we would have dealt. I’ve seen a view on here (and I’m not saying this is you) - that unless it’s a health reason, then it’s not ‘grave’ reason to put off having children. I believe that if the Church had believed this, they wouldn’t have said just ‘grave’ reasons, they would have said ‘grave medical or health reasons’. We want to be able to give our children every opportunity to excel in life - in every area. Some people seem to believe that this isn’t the most important thing - but I do have one last point - and regardless of if what you’re doing - and how exacting you’re geing with charts, etc, it is still very possible to get pregnant while using NFP (or any other form of controlling births) -
The OP also mentioned how many children he might like to have - I just remind him (although I’m sure he is aware) - is that any decision on using NFP - any decision regarding when to have or not have children is something that his fiance and he need to discuss prior to getting married - make sure the 4-6 kids you want is also what your future wife may want. I know this seems obvious but I’ve seen many a ‘disagreement’ on this after the marriage - also, only you, your future spouse and God can determine what ‘grave’ matter is. For us, we obviously believe differently than some of the other posters on here, although we’re also Catholic.
God Bless
Rye

 

[Bobby_Jim]

Just with regards to extending your loan repayment terms to 25 years… just imagine the prospects of still paying off your own student loans while also trying to pay for your kids to go to college. Kind of mind boggling. I recommend keeping the payment term to 10 years if you can manage.

 

[Onegin]

This topic is really dear to my heart. Dear in the sense that I worry about it to the point of illness, though I wish it weren’t an issue.

As a quick rundown, I financed my own college and law school education through a number of sources including scholarships, savings, working and grants. Given the inflated cost of education (and the skyrocketing variable interest rates!), I still have about $10,000 of college left to pay and about $100,000 in law school expenses. I have a job, but it doesn’t allow me to pay the $1k+/month student loan payments AND still be able to pay rent/food/car payment/etc. I was 19 years old when I began law school and didn’t really understand the magnitude of what this debt meant, I just trusted the school and signed on the dotted line, thinking that the money would be a worthwhile investment in my future. Nevertheless, I am the one who took out the loans and I am responsible for them. After graduation, I struggled for a couple years to make the interest-only payments but after a while the hardship was too much. Two of my private loans defaulted and are in collections, which is a nightmare in and of itself.

As a Catholic woman, I feel that these loans are a huge disadvantage to me when it comes to this issue specifically. The first is that I don’t think anyone looks at that kind of debt and sees you as a responsible individual. Instead they see someone who didn’t bother to budget or made a bad financial decision. I’m torn between agreeing with this and disagreeing. I am the first member of my family ever to attend graduate school. I wanted to do this so I could support myself and not have to rely on my family or anyone else (if it came to that) to support me. I also wanted a career that would allow me the flexibility to work from home if necessary as well as the freedom to start my own practice. I have all of that now but I’m not sure the price tag attached was worth it.

Currently, I’ve been dating a wonderful gentleman who is also educated. However, unlike myself, his family was more privileged and he grew up in a country where the cost of education is nowhere near what it is in the US. Consequently, he has spent his younger years working hard and saving money. We’ve discussed getting married and he is clear that he thinks of the husband and wife as “one” and that the debts of one belong to the other. However, I’m having a hard time with this as 1) I have no desire to in any way saddle him with the responsibility of this kind of debt, and 2) I’m not sure he fully appreciates the consequences of what owing this kind of money means. He has encouraged me to try to put away money each month so we can save for a house (good, right?) but I think he has a hard time understanding how I don’t have any money to save, and how I haven’t been able to save money or anything due to making these interest payments on student debt.

Finally, I don’t want to press the issue because, quite frankly, I am afraid that the knowledge of the significance of student debt like this will scare him away and I would be heartbroken. I hate what this debt has done to my life. It started out as a way for me to gain freedom by having the education to choose a job that I love and hopefully invest in my future, however I now feel more enslaved than ever. At this point now I think the debt is not only ruining me economically, but it is ruining my chances at a happy life or a family, as it does not allow me to make the financial plans that I would have been able to had I not gone to school.

Is anyone else struggling with this? How do I come clean about this horrible thing? I know a lot of my former classmates were struggling but a lot were bailed out by their parents. I don’t want anyone to bail me out, I just want to be able to live a relatively normal life without this issue controlling me. Should anyone in my situation even be thinking about getting married or having a family? I don’t foresee my financial situation changing within the next 5 years, by which time I will be 30.

 

[MAV0524]

This topic is really dear to my heart. Dear in the sense that I worry about it to the point of illness, though I wish it weren’t an issue.

As a quick rundown, I financed my own college and law school education through a number of sources including scholarships, savings, working and grants. Given the inflated cost of education (and the skyrocketing variable interest rates!), I still have about $10,000 of college left to pay and about $100,000 in law school expenses. I have a job, but it doesn’t allow me to pay the $1k+/month student loan payments AND still be able to pay rent/food/car payment/etc. I was 19 years old when I began law school and didn’t really understand the magnitude of what this debt meant, I just trusted the school and signed on the dotted line, thinking that the money would be a worthwhile investment in my future. Nevertheless, I am the one who took out the loans and I am responsible for them. After graduation, I struggled for a couple years to make the interest-only payments but after a while the hardship was too much. Two of my private loans defaulted and are in collections, which is a nightmare in and of itself.

As a Catholic woman, I feel that these loans are a huge disadvantage to me when it comes to this issue specifically. The first is that I don’t think anyone looks at that kind of debt and sees you as a responsible individual. Instead they see someone who didn’t bother to budget or made a bad financial decision. I’m torn between agreeing with this and disagreeing. I am the first member of my family ever to attend graduate school. I wanted to do this so I could support myself and not have to rely on my family or anyone else (if it came to that) to support me. I also wanted a career that would allow me the flexibility to work from home if necessary as well as the freedom to start my own practice. I have all of that now but I’m not sure the price tag attached was worth it.

Currently, I’ve been dating a wonderful gentleman who is also educated. However, unlike myself, his family was more privileged and he grew up in a country where the cost of education is nowhere near what it is in the US. Consequently, he has spent his younger years working hard and saving money. We’ve discussed getting married and he is clear that he thinks of the husband and wife as “one” and that the debts of one belong to the other. However, I’m having a hard time with this as 1) I have no desire to in any way saddle him with the responsibility of this kind of debt, and 2) I’m not sure he fully appreciates the consequences of what owing this kind of money means. He has encouraged me to try to put away money each month so we can save for a house (good, right?) but I think he has a hard time understanding how I don’t have any money to save, and how I haven’t been able to save money or anything due to making these interest payments on student debt.

Finally, I don’t want to press the issue because, quite frankly, I am afraid that the knowledge of the significance of student debt like this will scare him away and I would be heartbroken. I hate what this debt has done to my life. It started out as a way for me to gain freedom by having the education to choose a job that I love and hopefully invest in my future, however I now feel more enslaved than ever. At this point now I think the debt is not only ruining me economically, but it is ruining my chances at a happy life or a family, as it does not allow me to make the financial plans that I would have been able to had I not gone to school.

Is anyone else struggling with this? How do I come clean about this horrible thing? I know a lot of my former classmates were struggling but a lot were bailed out by their parents. I don’t want anyone to bail me out, I just want to be able to live a relatively normal life without this issue controlling me. Should anyone in my situation even be thinking about getting married or having a family? I don’t foresee my financial situation changing within the next 5 years, by which time I will be 30.

I don’t think you should be against your b/f helping you pay the debt once you are married. He should fully know what he is getting into marrying you though. Sit down with him and go over your finances (if you haven’t already done this). Yes, it might scare him, but like you probably agree, he deserves to know. You should be open to him helping pay for your education. It can be a source of wrongful pride to refuse help when needed in my humble opinion, whether it be from state assistance, parents, or spouses.

I don’t think it necessarily shows that you were irresponsible. How many 19 year old’s know the consequences of debt well into the future? I sure didn’t. I decided to major in political science when I was 18-19ish, because I wanted to change the world via politics. I realized as I got closer to graduation that a poli sci degree isn’t the best major for getting a job, so I went to grad school for a masters in public administration (a much more marketable degree yet in a limited field). I hoped it would pay off (and still think it will eventually) and would help me be able to support a family one day. I took advantage of many grants and such and got a tuition waiver for grad school, but living expenses ate me alive in graduate school. I also made some poor financial decisions my senior year of college that increased the debt, but the poor decisions were more so due to being naive than foolishness. It seems very common for young lawyers to facing heavy debts as law school is incredibly expensive and doesn’t bring in the big bucks like medical school as you know.

Say some prayers to St. Joesph and Mary. They were pretty poor when they had Jesus and were probably facing underemployment when they moved to Egypt. A confessor recommended this to me once. I think it has helped overcome some anxiety and believe it gained their assistance

 

[MAV0524]

This topic is really dear to my heart. Dear in the sense that I worry about it to the point of illness, though I wish it weren’t an issue.

As a quick rundown, I financed my own college and law school education through a number of sources including scholarships, savings, working and grants. Given the inflated cost of education (and the skyrocketing variable interest rates!), I still have about $10,000 of college left to pay and about $100,000 in law school expenses. I have a job, but it doesn’t allow me to pay the $1k+/month student loan payments AND still be able to pay rent/food/car payment/etc. I was 19 years old when I began law school and didn’t really understand the magnitude of what this debt meant, I just trusted the school and signed on the dotted line, thinking that the money would be a worthwhile investment in my future. Nevertheless, I am the one who took out the loans and I am responsible for them. After graduation, I struggled for a couple years to make the interest-only payments but after a while the hardship was too much. Two of my private loans defaulted and are in collections, which is a nightmare in and of itself.

As a Catholic woman, I feel that these loans are a huge disadvantage to me when it comes to this issue specifically. The first is that I don’t think anyone looks at that kind of debt and sees you as a responsible individual. Instead they see someone who didn’t bother to budget or made a bad financial decision. I’m torn between agreeing with this and disagreeing. I am the first member of my family ever to attend graduate school. I wanted to do this so I could support myself and not have to rely on my family or anyone else (if it came to that) to support me. I also wanted a career that would allow me the flexibility to work from home if necessary as well as the freedom to start my own practice. I have all of that now but I’m not sure the price tag attached was worth it.

Currently, I’ve been dating a wonderful gentleman who is also educated. However, unlike myself, his family was more privileged and he grew up in a country where the cost of education is nowhere near what it is in the US. Consequently, he has spent his younger years working hard and saving money. We’ve discussed getting married and he is clear that he thinks of the husband and wife as “one” and that the debts of one belong to the other. However, I’m having a hard time with this as 1) I have no desire to in any way saddle him with the responsibility of this kind of debt, and 2) I’m not sure he fully appreciates the consequences of what owing this kind of money means. He has encouraged me to try to put away money each month so we can save for a house (good, right?) but I think he has a hard time understanding how I don’t have any money to save, and how I haven’t been able to save money or anything due to making these interest payments on student debt.

Finally, I don’t want to press the issue because, quite frankly, I am afraid that the knowledge of the significance of student debt like this will scare him away and I would be heartbroken. I hate what this debt has done to my life. It started out as a way for me to gain freedom by having the education to choose a job that I love and hopefully invest in my future, however I now feel more enslaved than ever. At this point now I think the debt is not only ruining me economically, but it is ruining my chances at a happy life or a family, as it does not allow me to make the financial plans that I would have been able to had I not gone to school.

Is anyone else struggling with this? How do I come clean about this horrible thing? I know a lot of my former classmates were struggling but a lot were bailed out by their parents. I don’t want anyone to bail me out, I just want to be able to live a relatively normal life without this issue controlling me. Should anyone in my situation even be thinking about getting married or having a family? I don’t foresee my financial situation changing within the next 5 years, by which time I will be 30.

Is it possible as a lawyer to work part-time and make a decent wage? Maybe the you could live off your husband’s income and pay your loans with part-time work. Or work full-time for a couple years then switch part-time putting everything you make towards loans and everything he makes toward living expenses. or something like that…

Of course, it’s not ideal but the real world isn’t always ideal. If you can keep the two incomes from supporting a two-income standard of living , it obviously won’t be for materialistic purposes.

 

[Onegin]

Is it possible as a lawyer to work part-time and make a decent wage? Maybe the you could live off your husband’s income and pay your loans with part-time work. Or work full-time for a couple years then switch part-time putting everything you make towards loans and everything he makes toward living expenses. or something like that…

Of course, it’s not ideal but the real world isn’t always ideal. If you can keep the two incomes from supporting a two-income standard of living , it obviously won’t be for materialistic purposes.

Thanks for the helpful suggestions. As a lawyer I can work full-time, part-time, whatever, as long as there are clients and/or a flexible firm. My current job is full time and then I take private clients on the side as well as representing a local corporation part time as a way of earning a bit extra on top.

I think you’re right about the pride issue, but my feeling is mostly that it simply wouldn’t be fair to do that. I wouldn’t want someone I loved to be saddled with the stress and misery of worrying about making those payments. I would rather he take care of the expenses that are dearer to his heart (one of which is buying a house) and I can continue to put my income towards student loans while hopefully having some extra to contribute towards family expenses.

The problem here, of course, is this depends upon my working at least full time given my current income. One idea I thought of was teaching for a time, the money is usually decent and much of it doesn’t require my utilising office hours.

Anyways, thanks again for the suggestions, it’s a lot to mull over. I guess my big concern here is whether it is financially responsible for me to consider getting married and whether it is morally right to saddle a spouse with that kind of debt burden worry before it is paid off (or at least substantially paid down!) I know that I have the tools to succeed in life but at the moment I’m a bit of a financial dead weight.

 

[MAV0524]

Thanks for the helpful suggestions. As a lawyer I can work full-time, part-time, whatever, as long as there are clients and/or a flexible firm. My current job is full time and then I take private clients on the side as well as representing a local corporation part time as a way of earning a bit extra on top.

I think you’re right about the pride issue, but my feeling is mostly that it simply wouldn’t be fair to do that. I wouldn’t want someone I loved to be saddled with the stress and misery of worrying about making those payments. I would rather he take care of the expenses that are dearer to his heart (one of which is buying a house) and I can continue to put my income towards student loans while hopefully having some extra to contribute towards family expenses.

The problem here, of course, is this depends upon my working at least full time given my current income. One idea I thought of was teaching for a time, the money is usually decent and much of it doesn’t require my utilising office hours.

Anyways, thanks again for the suggestions, it’s a lot to mull over. I guess my big concern here is whether it is financially responsible for me to consider getting married and whether it is morally right to saddle a spouse with that kind of debt burden worry before it is paid off (or at least substantially paid down!) I know that I have the tools to succeed in life but at the moment I’m a bit of a financial dead weight.

I understand the “fair issue,” but guys being guys will want to provide for their wives. It doesn’t necessarily mean they are being taken advantage of. I personally liked someone who was looking at big time student loans. If we had dated and married, I wouldn’t have minded helping pay for some of her loans. I probably wouldn’t be able to pay all the loans myself in a reasonable time-frame though. Paying for part of it would help me feel like a provider.

There is nothing morally wrong with bring debt into a marriage. The debt was incurred in the past and there is nothing you can do about if for the time being. I do think Catholics who want to have families, especially Catholic women, need to carefully consider incurring debt before marriage. Nevertheless, many of us made decisions for better or worse in the past that can’t be changed. Whether it would be prudent to marry now is something to seriously consider. It stinks that money plays a role in when you get married but such is life.

On a side note, early home ownership is not always wise. Home ownership has its risks. I want to own a home someday, but it might not happen for 7-10 years or so due to student loans, low starting salaries, and a future car loan. I personally like the freedom of renting for the time being. It gives you the freedom to move for a better paying job every few years!