Study the Qur’an?

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worldcitizen said:
Yes. I grew up with it.
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Our Father, Who art in heaven
Hallowed be Thy Name;
Thy kingdom come,
Thy will be done,
on earth as it is in heaven.
Give us this day our daily bread,
and forgive us our trespasses,
as we forgive those who trespass against us;
and lead us not into temptation,
but deliver us from evil. Amen.

Say this from your Heart, to give you inner Peace.
 
Techno2000 said:
Our Father, Who art in heaven
Hallowed be Thy Name;
Thy kingdom come,
Thy will be done,
on earth as it is in heaven.
Give us this day our daily bread,
and forgive us our trespasses,
as we forgive those who trespass against us;
and lead us not into temptation,
but deliver us from evil. Amen.

Say this from your Heart, to give you inner Peace.
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Yes. it’s a beautiful prayer. When God’s Will will be done and people will have a Godly Kingdom not like the ungodly one now.

Thank you very much for being a friend. I consider it an honorary and privilege. It was like a gift from heaven.
 
worldcitizen said:
Yes. it’s a beautiful prayer. When God’s Will will be done and people will have a Godly Kingdom not like the ungodly one now.

Thank you very much for being a friend. I consider it an honorary and privilege. It was like a gift from heaven.
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Glory be to the Father,
and to the Son,
and to the Holy Spirit:
As it was in the beginning,
is now,
and ever shall be,
world without end.
Amen.
 
Hail Mary full of Grace, the Lord is with thee. Blessed are thou among women and blessed is the fruit of thy womb Jesus. Holy Mary Mother of God, pray for us sinners now and at the hour of our death Amen
 
JimmyDFG said:
Hail Mary full of Grace, the Lord is with thee. Blessed are thou among women and blessed is the fruit of thy womb Jesus. Holy Mary Mother of God, pray for us sinners now and at the hour of our death Amen
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Thanks Jimmy. I’m honoured and blest.
 
worldcitizen said:
Hi Techno,

Just received delivery of a Quran translated by the first western woman!!!

There is a controversial passage in sura 4:34 which speaks about wife beating but the word DARAB in Arabic has over 100 definitions one of them is to separate or go away from. So if a wife is nagging then vindictive and vicious it states not to beat her but ignore her and go away and not to harm her.

And Muhammad never beat His wives so it’s more accurate I feel.
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Refuted faithfreedom.org/Articles/ArabChristian30907.htm
 
worldcitizen said:
Hi Techno,

Just received delivery of a Quran translated by the first western woman!!!

There is a controversial passage in sura 4:34 which speaks about wife beating but the word DARAB in Arabic has over 100 definitions one of them is to separate or go away from. So if a wife is nagging then vindictive and vicious it states not to beat her but ignore her and go away and not to harm her.

And Muhammad never beat His wives so it’s more accurate I feel.
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You maybe referring to Laleh Bakhtiar’s “The Sublime Qur’an”

sublimequran.org/

which has the explanation you cite…

*Reverts 4:34 and “to beat” back to its original interpretation meaning “to go away”

With the blessings of God, this is the first complete English translation of the Quran that uses the original meaning of “to beat” in 4:34 which was “to go away.” The translator gives three arguments for why this is so:
1.The words “beat them” in 4:34 are a command, an imperative form of the verb. Yet the Prophet, peace and the mercy of God be upon him, never carried out this command. Even if one were to say that just because a word in the Quran is grammatically a command does not mean that the Prophet had to carry it out; it means it is permissible for him to do or not to do. The retort: He chose not to do it. Therefore, whoever follows the Sunnah of the Prophet should also choose not to do it.
2.The word interpreted as “to beat” for over 1400 years in the Islamic world has over 25 meanings. Why chose a meaning that goes against both the legal and moral principles of the Quran and the Sunnah of the Prophet?
3.The strongest argument for why the Arabic word does not mean “to beat” but rather means “to go away” is because interpreting the Arabic word as “to beat” contradicts another verse in the Quran. We start with a premise: Islam encourages marriage and while divorce is allowed, it is discouraged. The Prophet said: Marriage is half of faith. He also said: Divorce is deplorable.
It appears to have the "imprimatur" if I could use that term here of the Al-Azhar Islamic Research Academy … that’s good news.👍
 
worldcitizen said:
The Arabic word that means ‘beat’ also means ‘go away’.

The proper translation is to ‘go away’.
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The usual meaning of the verb daraba is to hit or beat or strike. Most Arabs reading this text would interpret it to mean “beat them” or “strike them”. In general, I’m very sympathetic towards Islam, but don’t find these new translation of this verse very convincing. They are mostly an attempt, in my opinion, to make a verse that many people now find disturbing or problematical more palatable.

But no one should use this verse to bash Islam since the Bible has plenty of its own disturbing passages.
 
Thorolfr said:
The usual meaning of the verb daraba is to hit or beat or strike. Most Arabs reading this text would interpret it to mean “beat them” or “strike them”. In general, I’m very sympathetic towards Islam, but don’t find these new translation of this verse very convincing. They are mostly an attempt, in my opinion, to make a verse that many people now find disturbing or problematical more palatable.

But no one should use this verse to bash Islam since the Bible has plenty of its own disturbing passages.
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Well I think that’s a very balanced and fair-minded post thankyou 👍

I will have to ask my wife and her family about daraba. I will report back.

.
 
Thorolfr said:
The usual meaning of the verb daraba is to hit or beat or strike. Most Arabs reading this text would interpret it to mean “beat them” or “strike them”. In general, I’m very sympathetic towards Islam, but don’t find these new translation of this verse very convincing. They are mostly an attempt, in my opinion, to make a verse that many people now find disturbing or problematical more palatable.

But no one should use this verse to bash Islam since the Bible has plenty of its own disturbing passages.
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I see your point however one thing to bear in mind is that the majority of translations are by men and women have been oppressed in both east and west for centuries so culture and habits can creep into interpretations.

But you are very fair.

I just bought a copy of the Quran by the first western female translator who uses ‘go away’ instead and I love it because it’s the translation of a woman and God created woman so I’m going with her rendering.
 
Servant19 said:
Well I think that’s a very balanced and fair-minded post thankyou 👍

I will have to ask my wife and her family about daraba. I will report back.

.
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Found it!!

2:231 But when ye divorce women, and they have fulfilled their pre-scribed time, either retain them with humanity, or dismiss them with kindness; and retain them not by violence, so that ye transgress; for he who doth this surely injureth his own soul.

Words of the translator Laleh Bakhtiar

As I reflected on this verse, I sat back and said to myself: Therefore, a Mus-lim wife who is to be divorced cannot be harmed, but a Muslim wife who wants toremain married does so under the threat of being beaten.
This not only contradicts all the verses in the Quran recommending mar-riage, but as a woman, I can conclude that I would rather be divorced than marriedwith the possibility that I might be beaten in the Name of God!
This is clearly a man-made contradiction and as such, it refutes any argu-ment that jurists have given for their interpretation of 4:34.

Note that her translation is based upon the Quran’s other verses forbidding harming a wife so it’s clear that the other translators chose the wrong word.

So one cannot try and keep a wife through violence. So to hit ones wife to try and save the marriage contradicts 2:231. The lady’s translation is correct.
 
Now to convince established schools of theology and those of teaching authority
 
worldcitizen said:
Found it!!

2:231 But when ye divorce women, and they have fulfilled their pre-scribed time, either retain them with humanity, or dismiss them with kindness; and retain them not by violence, so that ye transgress; for he who doth this surely injureth his own soul.

Words of the translator Laleh Bakhtiar

As I reflected on this verse, I sat back and said to myself: Therefore, a Mus-lim wife who is to be divorced cannot be harmed, but a Muslim wife who wants toremain married does so under the threat of being beaten.
This not only contradicts all the verses in the Quran recommending mar-riage, but as a woman, I can conclude that I would rather be divorced than marriedwith the possibility that I might be beaten in the Name of God!
This is clearly a man-made contradiction and as such, it refutes any argu-ment that jurists have given for their interpretation of 4:34.

Note that her translation is based upon the Quran’s other verses forbidding harming a wife so it’s clear that the other translators chose the wrong word.

So one cannot try and keep a wife through violence. So to hit ones wife to try and save the marriage contradicts 2:231. The lady’s translation is correct.
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4:34

Sahih International

Men are in charge of women by [right of] what Allah has given one over the other and what they spend [for maintenance] from their wealth. So righteous women are devoutly obedient, guarding in [the husband’s] absence what Allah would have them guard. But those [wives] from whom you fear arrogance - [first] advise them; [then if they persist], forsake them in bed; and [finally], strike them. But if they obey you [once more], seek no means against them. Indeed, Allah is ever Exalted and Grand.
 
Even though this is a hadith …
Narrated 'Aisha:Sahih al-Bukhari Book 4 Hadith 149
"The Prophet said to his wives, "You are allowed to go out to answer the call of nature. "

Controling and with the “strike them” in my last comment doesn’t paint a very good picture of muhammad
 
JimmyDFG said:
4:34

Sahih International

Men are in charge of women by [right of] what Allah has given one over the other and what they spend [for maintenance] from their wealth. So righteous women are devoutly obedient, guarding in [the husband’s] absence what Allah would have them guard. But those [wives] from whom you fear arrogance - [first] advise them; [then if they persist], forsake them in bed; and [finally], strike them. But if they obey you [once more], seek no means against them. Indeed, Allah is ever Exalted and Grand.
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This just highlights how translators translate differently but 2:231 in the Quran says not to use violence which supports the lady’s translation to ‘go away’ and condemns the wrong translations which promote violence.

It’s very clear in,light of 2:231

But when ye divorce women, and they have fulfilled their pre-scribed time, either retain them with humanity, or dismiss them with kindness; and retain them not by violence, so that ye transgress; for he who doth this surely injureth his own soul.
 
JimmyDFG said:
Even though this is a hadith …
Narrated 'Aisha:Sahih al-Bukhari Book 4 Hadith 149
"The Prophet said to his wives, "You are allowed to go out to answer the call of nature. "

Controlling and with the “strike them” in my last comment doesn’t paint a very good picture of Muhammad
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I would consider it does not paint a very good light upon the Christian Faith when they would like all to treat the Bible and the Prophets with Reason and JUSTICE, but then do not apply that same standard to another religion.

There is not one Teaching of Muhammad that was not applicable and reasonable to the age in which it was revealed. It is Gods Word for that Age.

That man added His own little/big variations to them is not unique to Islam, but can not be attributed to what was from God.

Regards Tony
 
TonyBS said:
There is not one Teaching of Muhammad that was not applicable and reasonable to the age in which it was revealed. It is Gods Word for that Age.

Regards Tony
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Would that make the quran and/or the hadith irrelevant in this day and age?
 
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