Study the Qur’an?

[TonyBS]

Muhammad promotes his own modified view of Christianity and Jesus’ life. The quran goes to great lengths to deemphasize Jesus as a divine figure, proclaiming he was simply another “Messenger” like muhammad.

With muhammads spin on the crucifixion hes making look as if Jesus did not died on the cross for our sins. Which muhammad should of been thankful for

Consider, if it is indeed a Book from God, then it is Gods Word we play with in our denouncing of the Religion of Muhammad.

Given this is may pay to study this from a different perspective.

It is great the Baha’u’llah has given is such a wonderful Love of Muhammad and the Koran. With this Frame of Reference based in Love and Unity, what was not seen before becomes apparent.

Regards Tony

 

[JimmyDFG]

Personally I don’t believe in the quran. I find too many manipulations

 

[Servant19]

For me, I like to have historical and where possible scientific evidence to support large events in religious books. I understand that this is not always possible but in this particular case there is historical evidence that proves Jesus was crucified under the Roman Prefect Pontius Pilate. Therefore, unless you can produce reliable historical evidence, the Quran and the Islamic view of Jesus’ death are just conjecture,

The question is how do you know that the verse in the Quran you have problems with is relating to a physical event?

.

 

[JimmyDFG]

Tell me if Christ is dead!

If Christ is not dead, you have what these verses are telling you.

Also ask who allowed this event to happen and what did the event achieve!

God Bless and Regards Tony

In regards to this comment
Quran 4:157-158
157-And [for] their saying, “Indeed, we have killed the Messiah, Jesus, the son of Mary, the messenger of Allah .” And they did not kill him, nor did they crucify him; but [another] was made to resemble him to them. And indeed, those who differ over it are in doubt about it. They have no knowledge of it except the following of assumption. And they did not kill him, for certain.

158-Rather, Allah raised him to Himself. And ever is Allah Exalted in Might and Wise.

So muslims believe Christ is alive? and Christians believe he’s alive after his resurrection.
Your quote " If Christ is not dead, you have what these verses are telling you."

From my understanding on what you are saying…
The end result is Christ is alive…but for the islamic belief it totally bypasses the crucifixion of Jesus. Is it denial of Christ dying on the cross for our sins? I do believe so.

Your other comment…
“Also ask who allowed this event to happen and what did the event achieve!”
We all sin …so we are the ones that allowed it to happen

The destination is to be one with Jesus in Heaven. Its Jesus’s crucifixion on the cross that can bring us there

 

[arte]

The question is how do you know that the verse in the Quran you have problems with is relating to a physical event?

.

I can see where you are going with this. Extract from the site you quoted; the Islamic view of Jesus’ death:

“While others opine that God gave someone Jesus’ appearance, causing everyone to believe that Jesus was crucified (majority view)”.

I assume by your question you are taking the majority view in that God gave someone Jesus’ appearance. This would allow for the witnesses to the crucifixion believing that Jesus was crucified when in fact He was not. This thereby renders all evidence to this fact null and void. Although not mentioned on the site, I believe the biggest problem for Muslims is that they cannot have Jesus dying and then raising himself from death because this shows He is God and not just a prophet. Therefore, Muslims cannot have Jesus dying on the cross.

I read the Quran exegesis to support Quran Surah 4:157-158 at the bottom of the site you quoted. **Both the Quran verse and especially its exegesis are obviously fiction. ** I mean no disrespect in saying this.

 

[JimmyDFG]

I can see where you are going with this. Extract from the site you quoted; the Islamic view of Jesus’ death:

“While others opine that God gave someone Jesus’ appearance, causing everyone to believe that Jesus was crucified (majority view)”.

I assume by your question you are taking the majority view in that God gave someone Jesus’ appearance. This would allow for the witnesses to the crucifixion believing that Jesus was crucified when in fact He was not. This thereby renders all evidence to this fact null and void. Although not mentioned on the site, I believe the biggest problem for Muslims is that they cannot have Jesus dying and then raising himself from death because this shows He is God and not just a prophet. Therefore, Muslims cannot have Jesus dying on the cross.

I read the Quran exegesis to support Quran Surah 4:157-158 at the bottom of the site you quoted. **Both the Quran verse and especially its exegesis are obviously fiction. ** I mean no disrespect in saying this.

Good point!!
What I don’t understand is why would “allah” deceive all Christians into believing Jesus died on the cross

 

[arthra]

Although many Muslims interpret the Quranic verse 4:157 to mean there was no crucifixion there are alternate views.

The Baha’i view of the Quranic verses 4:157 was provided by Abdul-Baha… What it suggests is that Jesus body was crucified not His Spirit:

'Abdu’l-Baha’s interpretation of the verse is provided in a Tablet published in Star of the West, vol. 2, no. 7, p. 13, in which He has written:

*“In regard to the verse, which is revealed in the Koran, that His Highness, Christ, was not killed and was not crucified, by this is meant the Reality of Christ. Although they crucified this elemental body, yet the merciful reality and the heavenly existence remain eternal and undying, and it was protected from the oppression and persecution of the enemies, for Christ is eternal and Everlasting. How can He die? This death and crucifixion was imposed on the physical body of Christ, and not upon the Spirit of Christ”
*

Also consider the Quranic verse 2:154

“And do not say about those who are killed in the way of Allah , “They are dead.” Rather, they are alive, but you perceive [it] not.”

The Qur’an also states that Jesus was taken up to Allah… Read Surih 4:158:

"Nay, Allah raised him up unto Himself; and Allah is Exalted in Power, Wise;-

Which confirms the last words of Jesus provided by the Gospel of Luke:

*…and when Jesus had cried out in a loud voice, He said, “Father, into Your hands I commit my Spirit” with these words he breathed His last.

*~ Luke 22:46

 

[JimmyDFG]

Although many Muslims interpret the Quranic verse 4:157 to mean there was no crucifixion there are alternate views.

The Baha’i view of the Quranic verses 4:157 was provided by Abdul-Baha… What it suggests is that Jesus body was crucified not His Spirit:

'Abdu’l-Baha’s interpretation of the verse is provided in a Tablet published in Star of the West, vol. 2, no. 7, p. 13, in which He has written:

*“In regard to the verse, which is revealed in the Koran, that His Highness, Christ, was not killed and was not crucified, by this is meant the Reality of Christ. Although they crucified this elemental body, yet the merciful reality and the heavenly existence remain eternal and undying, and it was protected from the oppression and persecution of the enemies, for Christ is eternal and Everlasting. How can He die? This death and crucifixion was imposed on the physical body of Christ, and not upon the Spirit of Christ”
*

Also consider the Quranic verse 2:154

“And do not say about those who are killed in the way of Allah , “They are dead.” Rather, they are alive, but you perceive [it] not.”

The Qur’an also states that Jesus was taken up to Allah… Read Surih 4:158:

"Nay, Allah raised him up unto Himself; and Allah is Exalted in Power, Wise;-

Which confirms the last words of Jesus provided by the Gospel of Luke:

*…and when Jesus had cried out in a loud voice, He said, “Father, into Your hands I commit my Spirit” with these words he breathed His last.

*~ Luke 22:46

Surah 4:158
And [for] their saying, “Indeed, we have killed the Messiah, Jesus, the son of Mary, the messenger of Allah .” And they did not kill him, nor did they crucify him; but [another] was made to resemble him to them. And indeed, those who differ over it are in doubt about it. They have no knowledge of it except the following of assumption. And they did not kill him, for certain.

If someone was in place of Jesus (as stated in the quran) …than they didn’t crucify nor did he die. So how is it confirming the last words of Jesus provided by the Gospel of Luke as you said?

Emphasis should be placed on Luke 23:45 as well

 

[TonyBS]

Surah 4:158
And [for] their saying, “Indeed, we have killed the Messiah, Jesus, the son of Mary, the messenger of Allah .” And they did not kill him, nor did they crucify him; but [another] was made to resemble him to them. And indeed, those who differ over it are in doubt about it. They have no knowledge of it except the following of assumption. And they did not kill him, for certain.

If someone was in place of Jesus (as stated in the quran) …than they didn’t crucify nor did he die. So how is it confirming the last words of Jesus provided by the Gospel of Luke as you said?

Emphasis should be placed on Luke 23:45 as well

No one was in Place of Jesus and this passage is not telling us, it has to be looked at in another way.

I see it as they did not see the “Spiritual” Jesus - They did not see the “Messiah” that would come from the Old Testament, they saw another, they saw but a man like them. Their hearts were cold to this most Majestic Sacrifice for the Sins of Man. They did not Kill the Christ, they did not see Him as He was.

God Bless and Regards Tony

 

[TonyBS]

I can see where you are going with this. Extract from the site you quoted; the Islamic view of Jesus’ death:

“While others opine that God gave someone Jesus’ appearance, causing everyone to believe that Jesus was crucified (majority view)”.

I assume by your question you are taking the majority view in that God gave someone Jesus’ appearance. This would allow for the witnesses to the crucifixion believing that Jesus was crucified when in fact He was not. This thereby renders all evidence to this fact null and void. Although not mentioned on the site, I believe the biggest problem for Muslims is that they cannot have Jesus dying and then raising himself from death because this shows He is God and not just a prophet. Therefore, Muslims cannot have Jesus dying on the cross.

I read the Quran exegesis to support Quran Surah 4:157-158 at the bottom of the site you quoted. **Both the Quran verse and especially its exegesis are obviously fiction. ** I mean no disrespect in saying this.

See the post above, you are still looking at this the wrong way.

You have to consider they only saw a man Like them, they did not see Jesus the Christ. No one replaced Him they did not see him, they saw another.

Regards Tony

 

[arte]

Good point!!
What I don’t understand is why would “allah” deceive all Christians into believing Jesus died on the cross

Allah (God) didn’t deceive Christians because the Bible tells us that Jesus died on the cross, was buried and rose from the dead after 3 days. The only reason why the true account of what happened is changed about 600 years later by Mohamed and his scribes is to take away the Son of God status from Jesus. Doing that allows Mohamed to become the final prophet and Jesus, the penultimate prophet. Basically, Mohamed becomes the “top dog”.

 

[arte]

Good point!!
What I don’t understand is why would “allah” deceive all Christians into believing Jesus died on the cross

Allah (God) didn’t deceive Christians because the Bible tells us that Jesus died on the cross, was buried and rose from the dead after 3 days. The only reason why the true account of what happened is changed about 600 years later by Mohamed and his scribes is to take away the Son of God status from Jesus. Doing that allows Mohamed to become the final prophet and Jesus, the penultimate prophet. Basically, Islam becomes the Number 1 religion and Christianity and Judaism are behind it.

 

[TonyBS]

Allah (God) didn’t deceive Christians because the Bible tells us that Jesus died on the cross, was buried and rose from the dead after 3 days. The only reason why the true account of what happened is changed about 600 years later by Mohamed and his scribes is to take away the Son of God status from Jesus. Doing that allows Mohamed to become the final prophet and Jesus, the penultimate prophet. Basically, Islam becomes the Number 1 religion and Christianity and Judaism are behind it.

Allah gathered Jesus and caused him to be resurrected and ascended to Allah himself (3: 55; 4:158*).

Jesus was sent by Allah, who supported him with the Holy Spirit to tell the world Allah’s will (2: 87; 5: 110-117*).

Allah gave to the world Jesus, exalted him above all others, and supported him with the Holy Spirit as proof of his sovereignty (2: 253*).

Regards Tony

 

[Servant19]

I can see where you are going with this. Extract from the site you quoted; the Islamic view of Jesus’ death:

“While others opine that God gave someone Jesus’ appearance, causing everyone to believe that Jesus was crucified (majority view)”.

I assume by your question you are taking the majority view in that God gave someone Jesus’ appearance. This would allow for the witnesses to the crucifixion believing that Jesus was crucified when in fact He was not. This thereby renders all evidence to this fact null and void. Although not mentioned on the site, I believe the biggest problem for Muslims is that they cannot have Jesus dying and then raising himself from death because this shows He is God and not just a prophet. Therefore, Muslims cannot have Jesus dying on the cross.

I read the Quran exegesis to support Quran Surah 4:157-158 at the bottom of the site you quoted. **Both the Quran verse and especially its exegesis are obviously fiction. ** I mean no disrespect in saying this.

What I am suggesting is that perhaps, when someone sees me today, it is made to APPEAR to be me, but in REALITY, it is not me at all…

I’ll be honest, just as the Old Testament is more clearly understood after reading the New Testament, I can honestly say that the Quran becomes fully clarified by studying the Baha’i Writings.

It is only through the Revelation of Baha’u’llah that Islam and Christianity can find significant unification and understanding.

.

 

[Servant19]

Good point!!
What I don’t understand is why would “allah” deceive all Christians into believing Jesus died on the cross

It’s not a deception, it’s a reality that we, as finite human beings are unable to conceive.

Twin foetuses in a womb. One says that this placenta is such an important part of who he is. The other says that the placenta is not really us, it’s just a deception made to appear that it is part of us.

They both live in a reality that this is it with the placenta, but the BIGGER PICTURE is obviously different.

The Quran talks about the BIGGER PICTURE…

.

 

[sennincatholic]

We Christians believe thatJesus Christ was crucified under Pontius Pilate,died and was buried.He descended to hell.On the 3rd day He rose from the dead body and Soul,and about a month or so later ascended body and Soul into Heaven.
There is no ambiguity to this.It is not open to interpretation.It is straightforward and clear.
Our whole belief depends on this.It is not some apparent crucifixion or someone taking His place on the cross as Muslims claim…There is no philosophical spin to the account of the crucifixion as the Bahais claim.
Christ indeed died on the cross and was resurrected,and is God.!!

 

[arte]

See the post above, you are still looking at this the wrong way.

You have to consider they only saw a man Like them, they did not see Jesus the Christ. No one replaced Him they did not see him, they saw another.

Regards Tony

The verse from the Quran: Surah 4:157
And [for] their saying, “Indeed, we have killed the Messiah, Jesus, the son of Mary, the messenger of Allah.” And they did not kill him, nor did they crucify him; but [another] was made to resemble him to them. And indeed, those who differ over it are in doubt about it. They have no knowledge of it except the following of assumption. And they did not kill him, for certain.

Your “take” on this passage: “No one was in Place of Jesus and this passage is not telling us, it has to be looked at in another way. I see it as they did not see the “Spiritual” Jesus - They did not see the “Messiah” that would come from the Old Testament, they saw another, they saw but a man like them. Their hearts were cold to this most Majestic Sacrifice for the Sins of Man. They did not Kill the Christ, they did not see Him as He was”. (my emphasis in bold)

The passage from the Quran is very clear especially the part I put in bold. The passage in bold is telling us that Jesus was replaced by someone else who looked like Jesus. “but [another] was made to resemble him to them’. The other parts of your post I have put in bold are very confusing to say the least.

Your post to me; “See the post above, you are still looking at this the wrong way”.

“You have to consider they only saw a man Like them, they did not see Jesus the Christ. No one replaced Him they did not see him, they saw another”.
(My emphasis in bold)

Again, more confusion especially if we add in the post from arthra. If they saw another, the Gospel writers would have reported it in the Bible and the secular historians would have done likewise. Furthermore, the Jewish high priests and the Romans would have stopped the crucifixion.

We have all this confusion because you and **arthra **are having to cover up something that is simply not true in the Quran. I mean no disrespect by saying this but I cannot think of any other way of putting it across. You and your religion are not responsible for this – Mohamed, the Quran scribes and Islamic scholars are to blame. Again I cannot think of any other way of putting that across. What other way is there?

 

[Servant19]

We Christians believe thatJesus Christ was crucified under Pontius Pilate,died and was buried.He descended to hell.On the 3rd day He rose from the dead body and Soul,and about a month or so later ascended body and Soul into Heaven.
There is no ambiguity to this.It is not open to interpretation.It is straightforward and clear.
Our whole belief depends on this.It is not some apparent crucifixion or someone taking His place on the cross as Muslims claim…There is no philosophical spin to the account of the crucifixion as the Bahais claim.
Christ indeed died on the cross and was resurrected,and is God.!!

So for 3 days, Jesus had no consciousness, He was dead, there was no God for three days?

That’s not a philosophical spin, that’s openly irrational. Jesus was alive before He had a body, during having a body, and after He had a body.

Are you denying this? Or are you simply writing what you have been told?

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[Servant19]

The verse from the Quran: Surah 4:157
And [for] their saying, “Indeed, we have killed the Messiah, Jesus, the son of Mary, the messenger of Allah.” And they did not kill him, nor did they crucify him; but [another] was made to resemble him to them. And indeed, those who differ over it are in doubt about it. They have no knowledge of it except the following of assumption. And they did not kill him, for certain.

Your “take” on this passage: “No one was in Place of Jesus and this passage is not telling us, it has to be looked at in another way. I see it as they did not see the “Spiritual” Jesus - They did not see the “Messiah” that would come from the Old Testament, they saw another, they saw but a man like them. Their hearts were cold to this most Majestic Sacrifice for the Sins of Man. They did not Kill the Christ, they did not see Him as He was”. (my emphasis in bold)

The passage from the Quran is very clear especially the part I put in bold. The passage in bold is telling us that Jesus was replaced by someone else who looked like Jesus. “but [another] was made to resemble him to them’. The other parts of your post I have put in bold are very confusing to say the least.

Your post to me; “See the post above, you are still looking at this the wrong way”.

“You have to consider they only saw a man Like them, they did not see Jesus the Christ. No one replaced Him they did not see him, they saw another”.
(My emphasis in bold)

Again, more confusion especially if we add in the post from arthra. If they saw another, the Gospel writers would have reported it in the Bible and the secular historians would have done likewise. Furthermore, the Jewish high priests and the Romans would have stopped the crucifixion.

We have all this confusion because you and **arthra **are having to cover up something that is simply not true in the Quran. I mean no disrespect by saying this but I cannot think of any other way of putting it across. You and your religion are not responsible for this – Mohamed, the Quran scribes and Islamic scholars are to blame. Again I cannot think of any other way of putting that across. What other way is there?

Your translation of that verse, especially the bolded bit is not 100% accurate.

The word [another] is throwing you off.

The word “resemblance” is more accurate but still not 100%.
“MADE TO APPEAR” is a better translation and in Baha’i theology we are “spiritual beings made to appear in a physical garb”

Hope that helps

.

 

[JimmyDFG]

As arte mentioned …
" We have all this confusion because you and arthra are having to cover up something that is simply not true in the Quran. I mean no disrespect by saying this but I cannot think of any other way of putting it across. You and your religion are not responsible for this – Mohamed, the Quran scribes and Islamic scholars are to blame. Again I cannot think of any other way of putting that across. What other way is there?"

I’m sorry for this quote again
“We killed Christ Jesus the son of Mary, the Messenger of Allah”;- but they killed him not, nor crucified him, but so it was made to appear to them, and those who differ therein are full of doubts, with no (certain) knowledge, but only conjecture to follow, for of a surety they killed him not:-
Nay, Allah raised him up unto Himself; and Allah is Exalted in Power, Wise;-
Qur’an, sura 4 (An-Nisa) ayat 157-158

“Some believe that in the Biblical account, Jesus’s crucifixion did not last long enough for him to die, while others opine that God gave someone Jesus’s appearance, causing everyone to believe that Jesus was crucified (majority view). A third explanation could be that Jesus was nailed to a cross, but as his body is immortal he did not “die” or was not “crucified” [to death]; it only appeared so. In opposition to the second and third foregoing proposals, yet others maintain that God does not use deceit and therefore they contend that crucifixion just did not occur.” From Wikipedia Islamic view of Jesus’ death

To me its almost like casting doubt… and that in itself would start a separation from Jesus and what actually happen to Jesus. Furthermore in the quran its says

"Those who say, “God is the Messiah, son of Mary,” have defied God. The Messiah himself said; “Children of Israel, worship God, my Lord and your Lord.” If anyone associates others with God, God will forbid him from the Garden, and Hell will be his home. No one will help such evildoers. Those people who say that God is the third of three are defying [the truth]: there is only One God. If they persist in what they are saying, a painful punishment will afflict those of them who persist. Why do they not turn to God and ask his forgiveness, when God is most forgiving, most merciful? The Messiah, son of Mary, was only a messenger; other messengers had come and gone before him; his mother was a virtuous woman; both ate food. See how clear We make these signs for them; see how deluded they are.
 Qur’an, sura 5 (Al-Ma’ida), ayat 72-75[4]

Christians have the Passion of Christ which we believe through eye witness accounts. On the other hand you have muhammad who trys and disproves factual events because he said so. If he was a “prophet” why so much effort to disprove a religion …why not solely promote “islam” on good works given to prophets by God