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JimmyDFG
Guest
I’m thinking the “mistake” is sugar coating a deception and giving innuendos and saying to study itI actually heard a Jew say that about the New Testament this week!!
Lol
How mistakes keep repeating themselves
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arte
Guest
I’m sorry Tony but it has not been answered. We have taken away the word “another” but the verse still reads that Jesus has been replaced by someone.
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arte
Guest
Like my reply to Tony, you have not answered to the meaning of the verse less the word “another”. Even with the word “another” removed, it still reads that Jesus was substituted with someone else. All the above is just evasion.
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arthra
Guest
Arte…
I agree that many Muslims believe there was a “substitute” but the verse in question can also have alternate meaning…
I’d recommend you consider some of the translations into English that are also accepted.
See the following:
Pickthall:
And because of their saying: We slew the Messiah, Jesus son of Mary, Allah’s messenger - they slew him not nor crucified him, but it appeared so unto them; and lo! those who disagree concerning it are in doubt thereof; they have no knowledge thereof save pursuit of a conjecture; they slew him not for certain.
Yusuf Ali:
That they said (in boast), “We killed Christ Jesus the son of Mary, the Messenger of Allah”;- but they killed him not, nor crucified him,** but so it was made to appear to them**, and those who differ therein are full of doubts, with no (certain) knowledge, but only conjecture to follow, for of a surety they killed him not:-
corpus.quran.com/translation.jsp?chapter=4&verse=157
The Arabic word in question is “Shub bi ha” and translates as “it was made to appear (so)”
corpus.quran.com/wordmorphology.jsp?location=(4:157:15
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TonyBS
Guest
Arthra has given a balanced reply, it may also be worth considering this as well;
If we are unable to look at the spiritual meaning behind this statement, then this approach can be applied to these verses, which proves one another other than Jesus Will Come and will have a new name.
John 16:7 - “Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you”
John 14:16 “And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you forever”.
Revelation 3:12 “Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name”.
Revelation 2:17 “He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the hidden manna, and will give him a white stone, and in the stone a new name written, which no man knoweth saving he that receiveth it”.
To me the Koran is a key to help apply further understanding to Biblical Passages.
Regards Tony
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JimmyDFG
Guest
We have all these witnesses, Matthew said Jesus was crucified. Mark said that He was crucified. Luke said He was crucified. John said He was crucified. Paul said He was crucified. Peter said He was crucified. So you have all these witnesses. And after 600 years someone from Arabia comes, “No, they didn’t crucify Him!” Whom should we believe? These witnesses who are honest, with great integrity, many of them died as martyrs because they believed in the crucifixion of Jesus, …or believe muhammed?To me the Koran is a key to help apply further understanding to Biblical Passages.
Regards Tony
What tangible credibility does muhammad have for changing the truth? Expressly 600 years after the fact of the crucifixion. Changes the story to fit his own agenda
There is nothing the quran can do to help in understanding the Biblical Passages
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Marie5890
Guest
Roman historian and senator, Taticus, also wrote of Jesus’ crucifixion.
“Consequently, to get rid of the report, Nero fastened the guilt and inflicted the most exquisite tortures on a class hated for their abominations, called Christians by the populace. Christus, from whom the name had its origin, suffered the extreme penalty during the reign of Tiberius at the hands of one of our procurators, Pontius Pilatus, and a most mischievous superstition, thus checked for the moment, again broke out not only in Judæa, the first source of the evil, but even in Rome, where all things hideous and shameful from every part of the world find their centre and become popular. Accordingly, an arrest was first made of all who pleaded guilty; then, upon their information, an immense multitude was convicted, not so much of the crime of firing the city, as of hatred against mankind”.
“Consequently, to get rid of the report, Nero fastened the guilt and inflicted the most exquisite tortures on a class hated for their abominations, called Christians by the populace. Christus, from whom the name had its origin, suffered the extreme penalty during the reign of Tiberius at the hands of one of our procurators, Pontius Pilatus, and a most mischievous superstition, thus checked for the moment, again broke out not only in Judæa, the first source of the evil, but even in Rome, where all things hideous and shameful from every part of the world find their centre and become popular. Accordingly, an arrest was first made of all who pleaded guilty; then, upon their information, an immense multitude was convicted, not so much of the crime of firing the city, as of hatred against mankind”.
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JimmyDFG
Guest
That they said (in boast), “We killed Christ Jesus the son of Mary, the Messenger of Allah”;- but they killed him not, nor crucified him, but so it was made to appear to them, and those who differ therein are full of doubts, with no (certain) knowledge, but only conjecture to follow, for of a surety they killed him not:-
Nay, Allah raised him up unto Himself; and Allah is Exalted in Power, Wise;-
— Qur’an, sura 4 (An-Nisa)
"Here is what Noble Verse 19:33 states: “So peace is upon me [Jesus] the day I was born, the day that I die, and the day that I shall be raised up to life.”
I guess that’s to say islam believes Christ wasn’t crucified. Furthermore I’ll like to add another verse from the quran …
‘The punishment of those who wage war against Allah and His Messenger, and strive with might and main for mischief through the land is: execution, or crucifixion, or the cutting off of hands and feet from opposite sides, or exile from the land: that is their disgrace in this world, and a heavy punishment is theirs in the Hereafter.’ Surah 5:33
By that verse allah wouldn’t of placed Jesus on the cross to die for our sins.
…Funny
Nay, Allah raised him up unto Himself; and Allah is Exalted in Power, Wise;-
— Qur’an, sura 4 (An-Nisa)
"Here is what Noble Verse 19:33 states: “So peace is upon me [Jesus] the day I was born, the day that I die, and the day that I shall be raised up to life.”
I guess that’s to say islam believes Christ wasn’t crucified. Furthermore I’ll like to add another verse from the quran …
‘The punishment of those who wage war against Allah and His Messenger, and strive with might and main for mischief through the land is: execution, or crucifixion, or the cutting off of hands and feet from opposite sides, or exile from the land: that is their disgrace in this world, and a heavy punishment is theirs in the Hereafter.’ Surah 5:33
By that verse allah wouldn’t of placed Jesus on the cross to die for our sins.
…Funny
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Servant19
Guest
And then we have Muhammad Jamaluddin al-Makki al-Amili al-Jizzini, (1334–1385), brutally martyred as the First Martyr of Islam, his death witnessed by so many that we lose count, historically verified as DEAD, and yet Prophet Muhammad says:
“And do not say about those who are killed in the way of Allah , “They are dead.” Rather, they are alive, but you perceive [it] not.” - 2:154
This Prophet is full of lies…seriously…just lie after lie after lie…
I see why so many Christians don’t like Him.
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JimmyDFG
Guest
Muhammad? Yes I agreeThis Prophet is full of lies…seriously…just lie after lie after lie…
I see why so many Christians don’t like Him.
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Servant19
Guest
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arte
Guest
Many thanks for the information. I was going to use the Pichthall version but thought it best to use the Sahih International version on the Nobel Quran website. I had read that Sahih meant authentic and the Nobel Quran website seems to be the best for mainstream Islam. I agree with you about the “substitute” being the position for many Muslims. This is backed up by the discussions on this thread.Arte…
I agree that many Muslims believe there was a “substitute” but the verse in question can also have alternate meaning…
I’d recommend you consider some of the translations into English that are also accepted.
See the following:
Pickthall:
And because of their saying: We slew the Messiah, Jesus son of Mary, Allah’s messenger - they slew him not nor crucified him, but it appeared so unto them; and lo! those who disagree concerning it are in doubt thereof; they have no knowledge thereof save pursuit of a conjecture; they slew him not for certain.
Yusuf Ali:
That they said (in boast), “We killed Christ Jesus the son of Mary, the Messenger of Allah”;- but they killed him not, nor crucified him,** but so it was made to appear to them**, and those who differ therein are full of doubts, with no (certain) knowledge, but only conjecture to follow, for of a surety they killed him not:-
corpus.quran.com/translation.jsp?chapter=4&verse=157
The Arabic word in question is “Shub bi ha” and translates as “it was made to appear (so)”
corpus.quran.com/wordmorphology.jsp?location=(4:157:15
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arte
Guest
I agree, Arthra has given a balanced reply and he states that many Muslims go for the “substitute” theory. The passages from John are describing the coming of the Holy Spirit. I don’t know what you are trying explain with your 2 quotes from Revelation.Arthra has given a balanced reply, it may also be worth considering this as well;
If we are unable to look at the spiritual meaning behind this statement, then this approach can be applied to these verses, which proves one another other than Jesus Will Come and will have a new name.
John 16:7 - “Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you”
John 14:16 “And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you forever”.
Revelation 3:12 “Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name”.
Revelation 2:17 “He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the hidden manna, and will give him a white stone, and in the stone a new name written, which no man knoweth saving he that receiveth it”.
To me the Koran is a key to help apply further understanding to Biblical Passages.
Regards Tony
I agree with JimmyDFG in that there is nothing in the Quran that can help in understanding Biblical Passages. If anything, from what has been discussed here on the crucifixion of Jesus, the Quran would deviate off course to a falsehood.
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MartinJordan
Guest
John 16:7? Why stop Jesus’ words up to that point? Tony. Can you complete his words please?
MJ
MJ
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JimmyDFG
Guest
If the quran is true, then islam is false? The quran says to trust the Gospels, but the four Gospels contradict the quran. This means the quran can’t be true if it says the Gospel message is also true…
1.None can change allah’s words1.6:34, “Rejected were the messengers before thee: with patience and constancy they bore their rejection and their wrongs, until Our aid did reach them: there is none that can alter the words (and decrees) of allah. Already hast thou received some account of those messengers.”
2.6:115, “The word of thy Lord doth find its fulfilment in truth and in justice: None can change His words: for He is the one who heareth and knoweth all.”
3.18:27, “And recite (and teach) what has been revealed to thee of the Book of thy Lord: none can change His Words, and none wilt thou find as a refuge other than Him.”
Jesus was given the Gospel…
1.57:27, “Then, in their wake, We followed them up with (others of) Our messengers: We sent after them Jesus the son of Mary, and bestowed on him the Gospel; and We ordained in the hearts of those who followed him Compassion and Mercy. But the Monasticism which they invented for themselves, We did not prescribe for them: (We commanded) only the seeking for the Good Pleasure of allah; but that they did not foster as they should have done. Yet We bestowed, on those among them who believed, their (due) reward, but many of them are rebellious transgressors.”
Ask Christians about spiritual things…
10:94So if you are in doubt, [O muhammad], about that which We have revealed to you, then ask those who have been reading the Scripture before you. The truth has certainly come to you from your Lord, so never be among the doubters.
So, if the quran confirms the Gospels which say that Jesus was crucified (Matthew 27:26–31; Mark 15:15–20; Luke 23:32–34; John 19:17-18) and the quran says Jesus was not crucified (Surah 4:157), then the quran is false. But if it says that the Gospels are false, then the quran denies its own teaching, and islam is false.
1.None can change allah’s words1.6:34, “Rejected were the messengers before thee: with patience and constancy they bore their rejection and their wrongs, until Our aid did reach them: there is none that can alter the words (and decrees) of allah. Already hast thou received some account of those messengers.”
2.6:115, “The word of thy Lord doth find its fulfilment in truth and in justice: None can change His words: for He is the one who heareth and knoweth all.”
3.18:27, “And recite (and teach) what has been revealed to thee of the Book of thy Lord: none can change His Words, and none wilt thou find as a refuge other than Him.”
Jesus was given the Gospel…
1.57:27, “Then, in their wake, We followed them up with (others of) Our messengers: We sent after them Jesus the son of Mary, and bestowed on him the Gospel; and We ordained in the hearts of those who followed him Compassion and Mercy. But the Monasticism which they invented for themselves, We did not prescribe for them: (We commanded) only the seeking for the Good Pleasure of allah; but that they did not foster as they should have done. Yet We bestowed, on those among them who believed, their (due) reward, but many of them are rebellious transgressors.”
Ask Christians about spiritual things…
10:94So if you are in doubt, [O muhammad], about that which We have revealed to you, then ask those who have been reading the Scripture before you. The truth has certainly come to you from your Lord, so never be among the doubters.
So, if the quran confirms the Gospels which say that Jesus was crucified (Matthew 27:26–31; Mark 15:15–20; Luke 23:32–34; John 19:17-18) and the quran says Jesus was not crucified (Surah 4:157), then the quran is false. But if it says that the Gospels are false, then the quran denies its own teaching, and islam is false.
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HungerNThirst4R
Guest
I believe lack of an understanding of Biblical Greek and Biblical Hebrew when studying the Bible can lead to some the same problems the OT discussed. Hence why there are 40,000 Protestant denominations.
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TonyBS
Guest
Or our understanding is incorrect
Given History of us rejecting God, I think one should look at this option
Regards Tony
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MartinJordan
Guest
Who’s rejecting God? Can you be more specific?Or our understanding is incorrect
Given History of us rejecting God, I think one should look at this option
Regards Tony
MJ
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Faithdancer
Guest
Fair enough, you’re reading it for the noble purpose of apologetics and to refute said pack of lies.
I tried something similar with the book of atheism once, but the pages were all blank.
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Faithdancer
Guest
Homer’s works aren’t proposed as dogmatic truth and the Olympian gods aren’t diametrically opposed to Christianity and Western civilization. Further, nobody really believes in the Olympian gods, much less is anyone willing to strap on a bomb belt for them.
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