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TonyBS
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Martin - What we have not considered is how accurate 2 Timothy 3 is in relation to us all.Who’s rejecting God? Can you be more specific?
MJ
Regards Tony
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Regards Tony
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MartinJordan
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This part? :
2 Timothy 3
13 In fact, everyone who wants to live a godly life in Christ Jesus will be persecuted, 13 while evildoers and impostors will go from bad to worse, deceiving and being deceived. 14 But as for you, continue in what you have learned and have become convinced of, because you know those from whom you learned it, 15** and how from infancy you have known the Holy Scriptures, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus. **
But as for you, continue in what you have learned and have become convinced of, because you know those from whom you learned it, 15 and how from infancy you have known the Holy Scriptures, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus.**
MJ**
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benhur
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Well, the greatest evangelizer ever said he became all things so that some might be saved. He also used knowledge of where people were at, even in their religion, to that end, as evidenced at the Mars Hill discourse. Of course, he was strong in the faith and gifted to be such an apostle.
Part of studying any book is to know its context historically and know what interpretations are out there. And as always, in much counsel is wisdom.That is, there are experts to learn from. I would say given today’s context , such studies are important. I find it interesting that an Islamic leader (Egypt) could close 900 mosques in His country for fear of and knowledge of jihadist activity taking place in them, and over here we have a president and others choosing not to utter ‘terrorist’ and “Islamic” together, as if if they are mutually exclusive.
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arte
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I assume you have included Muhammad Jamaluddin in your reply to give some form of legitimacy to Mohamed as a prophet and someone worth dying for. Muhammad Jamaluddin protested his love for Mohamed and all who loved him. He said this because of accusations made against him over defamation of Aisha, Abu Bakr and Umar, following the Nusayri faith and permitting the drinking of wine. He was a Shia cleric who I believe was sentenced to death by Sunni authorities – not 100% sure? In fairness to the man who was brutally killed, we will say he was a martyr. However, it doesn’t add credibility to Mohamed in that he should be believed over Christian witnesses of an event that took place 600 years earlier. In fact, the opposite because Mohamed is only adding to the already deservedly questionable status of his character in order to put out his version of events. Can you see God changing His mind on the fate of His Son? By Mohamed saying that Jesus only “appeared to die” on the cross, he is effectively committing blasphemy.And then we have Muhammad Jamaluddin al-Makki al-Amili al-Jizzini, (1334–1385), brutally martyred as the First Martyr of Islam, his death witnessed by so many that we lose count, historically verified as DEAD, and yet Prophet Muhammad says:
“And do not say about those who are killed in the way of Allah , “They are dead.” Rather, they are alive, but you perceive [it] not.” - 2:154
This Prophet is full of lies…seriously…just lie after lie after lie…
I see why so many Christians don’t like Him.
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Obviously Mohamed would say that someone who dies in the way of Allah is not dead but alive meaning “in Heaven”. Christians would say the same about Christian martyrs and it is likely the same for all other religions. It doesn’t add anything to the case that Jesus wasn’t crucified and did not die even though the word “perceive” is used. We all know Jesus is in Heaven and alive.
There is something very ominous about the verse that you have chosen.
“And do not say about those who are killed in the way of Allah , “They are dead.” Rather, they are alive, but you perceive [it] not.” - 2:154
This verse can easily be used by Islamic terrorists as a way of indoctrinating fellow Muslims into joining Islamic terrorist groups. They are fighting for Allah and even if they are killed; they are alive.
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TonyBS
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Faithdancer
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Well at least he got this part right: “This Prophet is full of lies…seriously…just lie after lie after lie…”
Yep, no argument here. False prophet, false religion and no we do not worship the same God. Tolerance for peaceful Muslims? Absolutely. Recognition of their religion as valid? Impossible for Christians.
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Servant19
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No…
I’m baffled as to how many Catholics do not understand the context of a post in this thread…
(I sometimes wonder maybe English is not the primary language of many)
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JimmyDFG
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I apologize for getting off topic on this comment but here’s an article written by Michael P. Orsi (a Catholic priest) on islam. He quotes from an interview …
"This has been highlighted brilliantly by a man who knows Islamist fanaticism from the inside, Mosab Hassan Yousef, the son of a founding member of the Palestinian terrorist group, Hamas. In a recent Wall Street Journal interview, Yousef told of his conversion to Christianity, and his love for Jesus Christ. When asked if he considered his father a fanatic, he described him rather as “a very moderate, logical person.”
****“What matters is not whether my father is a fanatic or not,” Yousef said. “He’s doing the will of a fanatic God. It doesn’t matter if he’s a terrorist or a traditional Muslim. At the end of the day, a traditional Muslim is doing the will of a fanatic, fundamentalist, terrorist God.”
hprweb.com/2012/03/challenging-islam/**
Its worth a read**
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JimmyDFG
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Jesus dying on the cross for our sins and for us to have everlasting life. Is totally different than being killed and “alive” in the way of allah
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Servant19
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Now your putting words into the mouth of Prophet Muhammad.
Can you show me a verse in the Quran that says Jesus’ sacrifice did not atone our sins?
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JimmyDFG
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That no bearer of burdens will bear the burden of another quran 53:38
Say, “Is it other than allah I should desire as a lord while He is the Lord of all things? And every soul earns not [blame] except against itself, and no bearer of burdens will bear the burden of another. Then to your Lord is your return, and He will inform you concerning that over which you used to differ.” quran 6:164
“O People of the Scripture, do not commit excess in your religion or say about allah except the truth. The Messiah, Jesus, the son of Mary, was but a messenger of allah and His word which He directed to Mary and a soul [created at a command] from Him. So believe in allah and His messengers. And do not say, “Three”; desist - it is better for you. Indeed, allah is but one God. Exalted is He above having a son. To Him belongs whatever is in the heavens and whatever is on the earth. And sufficient is allah as Disposer of affairs.” quran 4:171
“Christ, the son of Mary, was no more than a Messenger; many were the Messengers that passed away before him…see how God doth make His Signs clear to them, yet see in what ways they are deluded away from the truth” quran 5:75
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TonyBS
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The passages are not proving the point you wish to make. This does not at all answer the question "Can you show me a verse in the Quran that says Jesus’ sacrifice did not atone our sins’?
The quoted Koran verse 53:38 just supports the following biblical passages
Galatians 6:4 “But each one must examine his own work, and then he will have reason for boasting in regard to himself alone, and not in regard to another. 5 For each one will bear his own load”.
Romans 14:11 It is written: “‘As surely as I live,’ says the Lord, ‘every knee will bow before me; every tongue will acknowledge God.’” 12 So then, each of us will give an account of ourselves to God.
One needs to study the Koran and they will find it compliments the Bible. The key is that a person must first consider that the Koran is from God. then positive connections and clarification of misunderstandings are made.
Regards Tony
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Techno2000
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Islam is a Heresy, and will alway be that way to the Catholic Church.One needs to study the Koran and they will find it compliments the Bible. The key is that a person must first consider that the Koran is from God. then positive connections and clarification of misunderstandings are made.
Regards Tony
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MartinJordan
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I would humbly postulate that If Islam provides texts directly using the Christian Gospel and prove analytical and orderly from its Tradition passed down that it was part of the Church that put the Gospel together, and insists a non Divine Jesus, then Islam becomes a Heresy.
Otherwise it needs Evangelizing. I would charitably suggest that.
MJ
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JimmyDFG
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If you want a verse that strictly says “Jesus’ sacrifice did not atone our sins” no. But anyone can put two and two together with the verses I’ve given earlier. Furthermore, I’ll give statements from an islamic website on the matter of atonement …
Christian concept of atonement, that is, Jesus dying for the sins of humankind, and we will discover that this concept is totally rejected by Islam.
Tawheed is an Arabic word that means oneness, and when we talk about tawheed in relation to God it means realising and affirming God’s oneness. It is the belief that God is One, without partner or associate. There is no god worthy of worship but Allah, and this is the foundation of Islam. To profess such a belief along with the belief that Muhammad is His messenger is what makes a person Muslim.
“Say (O Muhammad): He is Allah , (the Unique) One. Allah, the Eternal (Foundation). He begets not, nor was He begotten; and there is none co-equal or comparable unto Him.” (Quran 112)
“Verily I am Allah None has the right to be worshipped but I, so worship Me ” (Quran 20:14)
“He is the Originator of the heavens and the earth. How can He have children when He has no wife? He created all things and He is the All-Knower of everything. Such is Allah, your Lord! La ilaha illa Huwa (none has the right to be worshipped but He), the Creator of all things. So worship Him (Alone), and He is the Trustee, Disposer of affairs, Guardian, over all things. No vision can grasp Him, but His Grasp is over all vision. He is the Most Subtle and Courteous, Well Acquainted with all things.” (Quran 6:101-103)
The Christian belief that Jesus is the son of God or God himself is in direct opposition to tawheed. The concept of a Trinity, Father, Son, and Holy Spirit is also firmly rejected by Islam. The idea that Jesus atoned (or saved our souls) by dying is a concept completely at loggerheads with Islamic belief.
“O people of the Scripture! Do not exceed the limits in your religion, nor say of God anything but the truth. The Messiah Jesus, son of Mary, was a Messenger of God and His Word, which He bestowed on Mary and a spirit created by Him; so believe in God and His Messengers. Say not, ‘Trinity!’ Cease; it is better for you! For God is One God, far removed is He from every imperfection, Far Exalted is He above having a son. To Him belongs all that is in the heavens and all that is in the earth. And God is All Sufficient as a Disposer of affairs.” (Quran 4:171)
The idea of Jesus dying on the cross is central to the Christian belief. It represents the conviction that Jesus died for the sins of humankind. In other words a person’s sins have been ‘paid’ for by Jesus, and one is free to do as he pleases, for in the end he will attain salvation by belief in Jesus. This is absolutely rejected in Islam.
There is no need for God, or even a Prophet of God to sacrifice himself for humankind’s sins in order to buy forgiveness. Islam refuses this view entirely. The foundation of Islam rests on knowing with certainty that nothing should be worshipped but God alone. Forgiveness emanates from the One True God; so, when a person seeks forgiveness, he must turn to God submissively with true remorse and ask for forgiveness, promising not to repeat the sin. Then and only then will sins be forgiven by God Almighty.
Islam teaches that Jesus did not come to atone for the sins of humankind; rather, his purpose was to reaffirm the message of the Prophets before him.
“… None has the right to be worshipped but God, the One and the Only True God” (Quran 3:62)
The Islamic belief about Jesus’ crucifixion and death is clear. He did not die to atone for humankind’s sins. There was a plot to crucify Jesus but it did not succeed; he did not die but rather ascended into heaven. In the last days leading up to the Day of Judgement, Jesus will return to this world and continue to spread the belief in the Oneness of God. The Quran tells us that on the Day of Judgement Jesus will deny ever asking the people to worship him instead of, or along with God.
“And (remember) when God will say (on the Day of Resurrection): ‘Jesus, son of Mary! Did you say unto men: Worship me and my mother as two gods besides God?’ He will say, ‘Glory be to You! It was not for me to say what I had no right (to say). Had I said such a thing, You would surely have known it. You know what is in my inner‑self though I do not know what is in Yours; truly, You, only You, are the All‑Knower of all that is hidden (and unseen). Never did I say to them aught except what You (God) did command me to say, Worship God, my Lord, and your Lord. And I was a witness over them while I dwelt amongst them, but when You took me up (to heaven), You were the Watcher over them; and You are a Witness to all things.” (Quran 5:116-117)
God tells us in Quran that there is only one unforgiveable sin, and that is if one dies having associated partners with God and did not repent from it before his death.
“Verily, God forgives not that partners should be set up with Him in worship, but He forgives except that (anything else) to whom He pleases, and whoever sets up partners with God in worship, he has indeed invented a tremendous sin.” (Quran 4:48)
In his traditions Prophet Muhammad, may the mercy and blessings of God be upon him, informed us that God said, “I am the Self-sufficient, I am in no need of having an associate. Thus he who does an action for someone else’s sake as well as Mine will have that action renounced by Me to him whom he associated with Me”.[1]
islamreligion.com/articles/3684/salvation-in-islam-part-2/
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JimmyDFG
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If a Christian was to study the quran , that person should remember the passage Matthew 24:11 Many false prophets will arise; they will deceive many,One needs to study the Koran and they will find it compliments the Bible. The key is that a person must first consider that the Koran is from God. then positive connections and clarification of misunderstandings are made.
Regards Tony
I really don’t see how it “compliments” the Bible in anyway. They are both different books…from its teachings to Jesus/Isa to salvation and love, even the love of nonbelievers.
As for believing the quran being from God , I doubt that because most of the “revelations” received by muhammad were committed to memory, parts were written down on parchment, stone, palm leaves. Caliph Abu Bakr, the first leader of the muslim community after muhammad, ordered the collection of all quranic material in the form of a book. Also because of the contradictions between the two
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TonyBS
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One thing can be said with much truth - Many have been deceived Now it is up to us to consider if we are part of all the man made deception.
All would have to put their hands up to this unfortunately.
Time rolls on and to the future we head and I will Study this Most Holy Koran a lot more, that is for sure
God bless all and regards Tony
Now it is up to us to consider if we are part of all the man made deception.All would have to put their hands up to this unfortunately.
Time rolls on and to the future we head and I will Study this Most Holy Koran a lot more, that is for sure
God bless all and regards Tony
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Servant19
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A huge AMEN!!One thing can be said with much truth - Many have been deceived
All would have to put their hands up to this unfortunately.
Time rolls on and to the future we head and I will Study this Most Holy Koran a lot more, that is for sure
God bless all and regards Tony
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JimmyDFG
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Matthew 14:30-33One thing can be said with much truth - Many have been deceived
All would have to put their hands up to this unfortunately.
Time rolls on and to the future we head and I will Study this Most Holy Koran a lot more, that is for sure
God bless all and regards Tony
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Techno2000
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GREAT, and when you do keep these Scriptures in MindOne thing can be said with much truth - Many have been deceived
All would have to put their hands up to this unfortunately.
Time rolls on and to the future we head and I will Study this Most Holy Koran a lot more, that is for sure
God bless all and regards Tony
…The Spirit clearly says that in later times some will abandon the faith and follow deceiving spirits and things taught by demons.** 1 Timothy 4:1
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But I am not surprised! Even Satan disguises himself as an angel of light**. 2 Corinthians 11:14
For there shall be a time, when they will not endure sound doctrine; but, according to their own desires, they will heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears: **** 2 Timothy 4:3
and many false prophets will appear and deceive many people. Matthew 24:11
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