Study the Qur’an?

[MartinJordan]

Yes Martin - Those parts to

Regards Tony

You’ve yet to answer why you used John 16:7 ( among the others)and didn’t finish Jesus’ words. Plus where in the Qur’an does it use John 16:7?

MJ

 

[worldcitizen]

Hi everyone,

My main concern is prejudice rearing its ugly head once again to precipitate a world war.

I have studied the Quran in depth about 40 years but am not a Muslim. The Quran is not understood in the west. It does not teach any form of violence but one requires a detailed knowledge of the history behind the verses. Fanatical groups such as Isis do not follow the Quran. They cherry pick verses out of context to make it look like the Quran promotes aggression such as 2:191 ‘kill them wherever you find them’ but the preceding verse which says ‘do not attack unless attacked first. God does not like such injustice’ is never quoted along with it.

Worldwide there are movements on the internet that deliberately quote out of context to their ignorant audience to create hatred & prejudice against Muslims. It would be as if you were an ignorant Christian audience and I said Christianity promoted violence by quoting ‘I come not to bring peace but a sword’ and mislead the entire audience and make thrm prejudiced against Christians.

This is what is happening throughout some sections in the west. Again, The Quran teaches only self defense no matter what you’ve been told. When Muhammad taught there was only one God, those who collected huge funds from the 360 idols they gathered felt threatened.
First they tried to bribe Him but He refused. Then they began persecution and finally killing His followers. When He still wouldn’t worship their idols then they decided that the entire Muslim community had to be exterminated. In other words GENOCIDE - a recognised war crime today unacceptable to anyone. Muhammad has no choice but to defend them or allow them to be brutally massacred.

Muhammad continued to free oppressed people but never attacked unless attacked.

After He died the Caliphs seized power although they knew the true successor was Ali and they began conquering with the sword especially the Umayyaids and Abbasids and to this day they are the ancestors of Isis.

There are so many verses proving that Muhammad loved the Christians, and His Edicts with groups like the monks of Sinai that ANY well educated person knows that Islam in its pure form was never violent but that the Caliphs corrupted it.

Matter of fact, IF Muslims read the Quran for themselves without the interpretation of their leaders the world today would not be threatened with terrorism.

Websites I visit accuse the pope and Catholics of trying to be friendly with Muslims and are against them having good relations but the Pope has the TRUE version of Islam and knows that the Quran does not teach violence.

Today’s terrorists have muddied the water only for those who are uneducated. But as I am fully educated I can see their cherry picking a mile away and it is designed to promote HATE something Christ was opposed to. Christ taught love.

But those who are killing in the name of God kill not in the name of God but in their own name. The verses of the Quran are taken out of context. They also use sayings which are not authoritative. The ONLY authoritative Book which Muhammad gave the Muslims was the Quran, any additions are NOT from God.

I fear those whipping up hatred will turn Christians against Muslims due mainly to ignorance.

Please, I pray God, be on your guard with people trying to create hatred between Muslims and Christians. They are not sincere and should be avoided as they are not lovers of God or Christ or humanity. We should love all humanity as they are all God’s children.

 

[TheAtheist]

Hi everyone,

My main concern is prejudice rearing its ugly head once again to precipitate a world war.

Welcome to the party… pulll up a deck chair… I’m pretty sure at this rate we’re heading there as it is.

It does not teach any form of violence but one requires a detailed knowledge of the history behind the verses. Fanatical groups such as Isis do not follow the Quran.

There are several Christians/Catholics on this thread or who have participated on this thread who might disagree with you just a tad. Not being a Qur’anic scholar, i’ll defer to your collective knowledge on this issue.

But i’d like to point out something regarding the issue of your true Islam argument.

Let’s call it the Pragmatic Definition problem.

None of us outside of Islam, whether we’re Christians, atheists, Jews, Bahais, etc can actually pin point what is “true Islam.”

We can name trends within Islam, schools within Islam, we can tell a person how Islam was practiced in one social context or another, we can tell how it was practiced in historically.

But true Islam? We can’t - none of us believe in what is written in the Koran.

This would be like me attempting to judge between say the Catholics or the Protestants about what is “true Christianity” Yes sure, I can read all their arguments - but from a person coming in from the Outside, that’s what they just look like at the end of the day - arguments.

So what we’re ultimately stuck with at the end of the day isn’t so much a quest for true Islam, but rather a more nuanced question of:

How is Islam being interpreted by a majority of its believers at this current time?

Because whatever that interpretation is…well…that’s the one we have to live with as people coming Outside of their faith.

This is what is happening throughout some sections in the west.

But don’t you see why that would logically be the case?

Think on this for a second - heck use this Board as your primary data set.

I’ve said this once, and i’ll say it again - all these religious boards on the internet don’t need more theologians of other religions = they need Anthropologists.

Many people here and in other places I frequent only know what a Muslim is as a theoretical construct.

An abstraction built on what they’ve seen and what they’ve read, but not on what the have experienced.

So there is already a kind of gap there based on contact/interest. This gap is further widened by the fact that…well… they have faith commitments too.

I’m not saying its impossible for people of different viewpoints to be friendly to one another… But there is a kind of inherent knee-jerk reaction to see when something goes wrong in another person’s enterprise to give yourself a psychological pat on the back…

And all i’ve mentioned above are just the background theoretical issues, haven’t even touched on the practical/pragmatic problems by the fear created by random terrorism coupled with an inherent…anxiety?.. the West seems to be feeling at this point regarding the waves of immigration out of the Middle East.

The fear in some cases is quite palpable… can you really expect people to keep their heads about them in a time like this?

After He died the Caliphs seized power although they knew the true successor was Ali and they began conquering with the sword especially the Umayyaids and Abbasids and to this day they are the ancestors of Isis.

I see, you’ve unilaterally judged the Shi’ite position to be correct…
…

There are so many verses proving that Muhammad loved the Christians, and His Edicts with groups like the monks of Sinai that ANY well educated person knows that Islam in its pure form was never violent but that the Caliphs corrupted it.

You can assert that all you want.

Your detractors can assert otherwise all they want as well.

As i maintain, “truth” here is irrelevant - its only what the pragmatic outcome will look like that matters.

I fear those whipping up hatred will turn Christians against Muslims due mainly to ignorance.

Too late. That ship left port a while back (i think the time window to actually address this issue was the last 5 or 6 year time gap).

Fret not, there’s still enough of the Christian population who can emphatize with err… “Ahmed the Kebab guy” if i may draw on a stereotype (actually I do know an Ahmed the Kebab guy, he’s a refugee from the first war in Kabul… ) to realize that Ahmed and his family pretty much want what every other immigrant wants - a chance.

The more things blow up however and patience wears thin… will see how long empathy can last.

Because well, sadly, Fear tends to be a much greater force for people than either your Love or my Reason.

 

[Techno2000]

they need Anthropologists.

For mankind… in the end it all comes down to this…

Pride
Envy
Wrath
Greed
Lust
Laziness
Gluttony

 

[worldcitizen]

We can choose to get alarmed and also be incited against others but the majority of Muslims are not warring people. That’s the impression the media portrays so we should not be too worried yet unless we start hating back. Then it could be Islam vsnChristianity which we don’t want all over again.

There must be another way to get along without this silly violence. Muhammad never came to conquer cities but to bring God to idol worshippers. Only the terrorists use Islam for evil not all Muslims so there’s nothing to fear from Muslims in general.

The main purposes of Muhammad and the Quran was twofold. First to bring the knowledge of one God to the idol worshippers and two to unite the warring tribes of Arabia into a city state with proper laws instead of the lawlessness that prevailed at the time.

His message was therefore firstly to conquer men’s hearts and instill into them love for One God and next to give them moral and legal laws to live by in a virtuous society.

The verse below shows that self defense was the only form of war acceptable in His religion.

2:190

Fight for the sake of God those that fight against you, but do not attack them first. God does not love aggressors.

The pope is a very saintly and good man. He’s trying to promote harmony and friendship on earth.

I Fully support his messages of peace and tolerance towards all.

 

[JimmyDFG]

You will need to go back to the Old Testament and look up what prophecy was not fulfilled with Christ, there are a few that are very obvious.

The Jews would have a very long List

Muhammad is foretold in the Old Testament as well, as is the Bab and Baha’u’llah

God Bless and Regards Tony

Where exactly and specificity in the Old Testament is muhammad foretold and what prophecies he fulfill?

 

[JimmyDFG]

There is very reliable Information, 1st the Bible, 2nd the Koran and 3rd the writings of the Bab

All p(name removed by moderator)oint the End Times as commencing in the Mid 1800’s. the dates actually work amazingly well, but not many look. Start a new thread if you wish and quite some amazing facts will be disclosed…wait a minute, think that has been done a few times over

Regards Tony

Matthew 24:36 But as for that day and hour, nobody knows it, neither the angels of heaven, nor the Son, no one but the Father alone

 

[Servant19]

Matthew 24:36 But as for that day and hour, nobody knows it, neither the angels of heaven, nor the Son, no one but the Father alone

But people will know the time AFTER it happens Jimmy…

Today is AFTER it happened

.

 

[JimmyDFG]

Does islam think highly of baha’i, as baha’i thinks of islam? Baha’i seems like an updated religion to Islam. If you have a religion that seemingly teaches the same ideals and “truths” of islam, why should a muslim want to reject it? Is there something that causes muslims to doubt Baha’ullah’s claims?
To me its seems like baha’is read or “study” all scriptures and draw their own conclusion from it. Almost like a new aged religion

 

[Servant19]

No one knows when End Times will come so you cannot say “we currently live in those Times” unless you have reliable information to the contrary. In fairness to you, I have Christian friends who say the same thing. There have been many people, mainly Christians from what I have read, who say we are in End Times. Some give dates but the dates never work out so they shift the date further back accordingly. I put Jehovah Witnesses in that basket. There are Christians who can’t wait for End Times to come so that they go to Heaven and the rest go to hell. The main concern I have for the future is the “Muslim Trojan Horse” we are seeing in non Muslim countries particularly in Europe.

Arte, can you seriously tell me that when the End Times do come, no one will know?
You are expecting the stars to fall, the sun to not give its light, the trumpets to blast from heaven, the entire world to be destroyed and a new one to be laid out in its stead and you’re gonna look at all this and say “Nope, no one will know when the End Times are coming. This isn’t it.”



.

 

[JimmyDFG]

But people will know the time AFTER it happens Jimmy…

Today is AFTER it happened

.

Ooooooh…kay

 

[JimmyDFG]

Arte, can you seriously tell me that when the End Times do come, no one will know?
You are expecting the stars to fall, the sun to not give its light, the trumpets to blast from heaven, the entire world to be destroyed and a new one to be laid out in its stead and you’re gonna look at all this and say “Nope, no one will know when the End Times are coming. This isn’t it.”



.

Tell me on what day the “Day of Resurrection” will be?

 

[Servant19]

Does islam think highly of baha’i, as baha’i thinks of islam? Baha’i seems like an updated religion to Islam. If you have a religion that seemingly teaches the same ideals and “truths” of islam, why should a muslim want to reject it? Is there something that causes muslims to doubt Baha’ullah’s claims?
To me its seems like baha’is read or “study” all scriptures and draw their own conclusion from it. Almost like a new aged religion

Nope, to Islam, the Baha’i Faith today is a heresy. My relative was killed for being a Baha’i by the Iranian government.

Yes, the Baha’i Faith is like an update of Islam. It is actually the fulfilment of all the major religions before it.

Muslims reject the Baha’i Faith because they interpret their Scriptures the same way that Jews interpreted theirs and rejected Christ

Baha’is don’t draw their own conclusions. Do Christians draw their own conclusions about the Torah? It’s a Revelation given to fulfill, to complete what was missing, to demystify the mysteries of old.

It’s not a new aged religion. It’s a global independent religion. The second most widespread in the world after Christianity. There is not a country, state or territory that doesn’t have Baha’is in it, and still one undivided religion.

.

 

[Servant19]

Tell me on what day the “Day of Resurrection” will be?

23rd May 1844.
It already happened.

The End Times occurred during Pauls times too.
It happens after every Manifestation of the Word appears on earth with a new Revelation.

.

 

[TonyBS]

Does islam think highly of baha’i, as baha’i thinks of islam? Baha’i seems like an updated religion to Islam. If you have a religion that seemingly teaches the same ideals and “truths” of islam, why should a muslim want to reject it? Is there something that causes muslims to doubt Baha’ullah’s claims?
To me its seems like baha’is read or “study” all scriptures and draw their own conclusion from it. Almost like a new aged religion

We study the Koran, New Testament and Old Testament as they are From God as all the Holy Scriptures are.

It is not a Bahai that draws His own Conclusion, it is again Written for all to see. We can have our own Ideas but that is all they are and only the Authorised Writings and Authorised Interpretations can be used as the official view.

God bless and regards Tony

 

[Techno2000]

We study the Koran, New Testament and Old Testament as they are From God as all the Holy Scriptures are.

It is not a Bahai that draws His own Conclusion, it is again Written for all to see. We can have our own Ideas but that is all they are and only the Authorised Writings and Authorised Interpretations can be used as the official view.

God bless and regards Tony

Oh you mean as Servant19 says… blind faith

 

[Techno2000]

Arte, can you seriously tell me that when the End Times do come, no one will know?
You are expecting the stars to fall, the sun to not give its light, the trumpets to blast from heaven, the entire world to be destroyed and a new one to be laid out in its stead and you’re gonna look at all this and say “Nope, no one will know when the End Times are coming. This isn’t it.”



.

Mother Shipton (16th century). "The great chastisement will come when

carriages go without horses and many accidents fill the world with woe. It will

come when ‘thoughts are flying round the earth in the twinkling of an eye’ , when

long tunnels are made for horseless machines, when men can fly in the air and

ride under the sea, when ships are wholly made of metal, when fire and

water ‘great marvels do’, when even the poor can read books, when many taxes

are levied for war."

 

[Servant19]

Oh you mean as Servant19 says… blind faith

If everything in the Baha’i Faith didn’t make total and under sense, I wouldn’t be a Baha’i.
It’s called a faith of spirit AND reason

.

 

[Servant19]

Mother Shipton (16th century). "The great chastisement will come when

carriages go without horses and many accidents fill the world with woe. It will

come when ‘thoughts are flying round the earth in the twinkling of an eye’ , when

long tunnels are made for horseless machines, when men can fly in the air and

ride under the sea, when ships are wholly made of metal, when fire and

water ‘great marvels do’, when even the poor can read books, when many taxes

are levied for war."

Sounds a bit like my local village
Are we in End Times Techno?

.

 

[TonyBS]

Oh you mean as Servant19 says… blind faith

Please explain how I was talking about blind Faith.

Also please advise who is now the Authority that Gives meaning to the Old Testament?

The answer to these questions may lead is back to why one needs to study the Koran.

Regards Tony