Study: When Counting Premiums, US Workers Heavily Taxed

[PetraG]

We all need housing and transportation too. Just because something is a necessity doesn’t mean you have a right to have it provided for you.

Our healthcare system needs fixed, and there needs to be a safety net for the poor, but universal health care isn’t the answer.

When comparing tax burdens, however, it is more realistic to count expenses required to make up major things like health care. It really isn’t fair to say someone else has far higher taxes when those taxes relieved them of a major expense that when all is said and done our society actually does provide for those who can’t pay for it.

We have “universal health care” because we have laws that forbid hospitals from refusing to treat the dangerously ill or injured because they can’t pay. Everyone does have a right to some level of health care, then. We just have a very bad system of providing it. Since we’re really not willing to let people go without a minimal level of health care, we ought to just admit that and come up with a better–more cost-effective and better-designed–system for providing it.

what would coverage be like? we have the VA as an example and the system is terrible (YMMV).

I’d say the VA system saves money partly by making the use of the private system seem like a good alternative. Based on other countries, that isn’t how universal health care systems work.

Our main problem is coming up with a sliding co-pay system. I don’t know about other countries, but citizens of the US abuse anything that is offered to them for free. We have too many people who are just shameless that way: no scruples at all about thinking about themselves and nobody else. It may seem harsh to say it, but it is a fact of life.

 

[RCIAGraduate]

How would you do things?

 

[JimR-OCDS]

First I would’ve improved ACA by adding the Government Option, which Obama had in his proposal, but Nancy Pelosi removed because of pressure.

Then, I would’ve expanded Medicare down to age 55, then 50 and eventually for everyone with a single payer universal system. My own primary care physician told me this what he and his peers wanted to see.

Also, for profit doctors and hospitals would not be in the system. They’re gouging the American public almost as much as the drug companies.

 

[JoeShlabotnik]

Insurance companies exist to max the money they can make off of people. They could care less about providing any actual help to those who need health care. That is why insurance companies should be taken out of the equation.

 

[Peeps]

Actually, a single-payer system does keep costs down substantially because there’s more accountability. If we’re not picking up the tab for what the system won’t cover, health care entities will be forced to lower their prices.

I don’t think it’s possible for health care systems to lower their prices much more.

The cost of the technology is, in the words of our current President, “HUUUGE!” The instrumentation in a hospital lab runs into the millions. We have three hospital systems in our city, and it would seem that the hospital labs could share these instruments–but it’s simply not practical. Many of the instruments are able to delivers results in minutes, and the time spent transporting patient specimens to a central “lab instrument site” would mean less-favorable outcomes for patients (to put it bluntly, pain, suffering, fear, and DEATH!).

I’m sure that other departments like medical imaging, respiratory, etc. have equally-advanced and EXPENSIVE instruments.

And the cost of medical personnel is also very high…but there is a huge shortage of these professionals. First, a lot of the medical careers are unknown to students, teachers in the school system, and the parents! On those stupid television hospital series (e.g., the Good Doctor, etc.), all we see are doctors and nurses. Bah, humbug!!! Why don’t the TV shows ever highlight med techs (lab), respiratory tech, X-Ray techs, medical records pros, PAs, APNs, etc. etc. etc. !!! And why don’t school counselors ever suggest these careers, which pay a decent wage?

BUT…all of these careers required schooling post high school, and that means (1) actually graduating from high school or earning a GED after high school and (2) getting post high school further education, generally a Bachelor’s Degree!!

And even though there are all kinds of touching stories about teens from poor families who qualify for college scholarships, many middle-income families cannot qualify for any significant scholarship aid, but don’t make enough money even if they scrimp on every personal expense, to pay for their children to go for a Bachelor’s Degree.

But the saddest thing is–for those who DO pay for all that extra education and become a med tech or resp. tech or PT–we just don’t get paid that much, and for a young person who owes tens of thousands in student loans–it hardly seems worth it. One of my co-workers turned 40 last year, and she is STILL trying to pay off her student loans!!! (She didn’t get married until she was 32, and she didn’t have her first baby until she was 36).

I simply can’t understand how any kind of government-controlled health care system will pay for all this. I personally think that other countries that have lower health care costs simply don’t have the level of health care that the U.S. does–the technology, the personnel with advanced education, and the options for patients to receive treatment and care.

 

[RCIAGraduate]

First I would’ve improved ACA by adding the Government Option, which Obama had in his proposal, but Nancy Pelosi removed because of pressure.

You mean the Public Option, maybe like make it free by for those 250% of the FPL and below? ACA’s premium tax credits/subsidies also seem promising as well if you take it further (like make it where only up to 5% of your income is needed, Germany seems to have a system where you only need pay 2% of income of total medical costs, maybe move to something like that though there’s still deductibles and after coinsurance and copays to take into account (1% if you’re sick though it’s on top on payroll taxes as well). Deductibles are super high too. How can someone living paycheck to paycheck afford a deductible? I understand Germany has multi-payer over single-payer maybe the GOP can adopt that?

Then, I would’ve expanded Medicare down to age 55, then 50 and eventually for everyone with a single payer universal system

Ah, you mean gradually instead of all at once to make it sustainable and more feasibly easier to do? Maybe trade in expanded Medicare for getting SS under control?

Also I know it seems like markets are the problem, but why not try a free market and subsidize gaps or what you want is a basic medical option and allow people to pursue further if they wish?

What about concerns that the system will fund contraception and abortion or is that another battle to fight over?

 

[blackforest]

What about concerns that the system will fund contraception and abortion or is that another battle to fight over?

Sorry - checking in on this thread a little late.

Your insurance company already does fund these things through the premiums you pay. Germany’s system sounds intriguing; I’ll have to look into that.

 

[DarkLight]

There’s also the problem that taking better care of yourself starting from childhood isn’t actually a choice. Been some fun studies lately on how childhood issues can affect later life. Unfortunately people don’t get to choose their childhoods. Even basic things - when you see a small child that’s very overweight, it’s not like we can hold the kid responsible.

We all need housing and transportation too. Just because something is a necessity doesn’t mean you have a right to have it provided for you.

Our healthcare system needs fixed, and there needs to be a safety net for the poor, but universal health care isn’t the answer.

I think this is interesting actually, because these are also both very big issues. In fact I’ve commented before that one of the biggest poverty traps in the US is that, outside of a select few urban areas, affordable housing is not served by public transit, and public transit does not serve the hours that low-wage workers need. But right now we don’t really have a good solution to that either.

 

[Peeps]

There’s also the problem that taking better care of yourself starting from childhood isn’t actually a choice. Been some fun studies lately on how childhood issues can affect later life. Unfortunately people don’t get to choose their childhoods. Even basic things - when you see a small child that’s very overweight, it’s not like we can hold the kid responsible.

Yes, definitely.

I have some relatives who are raising train-wrecks…uh, I mean boys.

We have watched for 17 years the disaster in the making because of so many poor child-rearing choices. It started when the oldest boy was a baby. My husband and i both noticed several symptoms of autism in the baby boy and pointed it out to the parents, but they reacted with anger and complete denial that anything was wrong.

The boy suffered terribly throughout pre-school, kindergarten, and grade school at the hands of teachers in his “Christian” school who had no idea that his behavior was not rebellion, but autism. His parents continued to deny his condition until he was around 10 years old, when they finally were forced to take him to a counselor, who informed them that the boy had autism and had grown up with untreated autism.

Grr. I love the boy so much and grieve for him today. He has so many good traits, but it will be a miracle if he can overcome the years of lack of treatment that would have helped him to learn to cope with his condition and achieve success in school and social settings. Believe it or not, Facebook has been very helpful for him–he has a wonderful Facebook page with thoughtful and often very funny postings.

I took him out yesterday and we talked about the possibility of his achieving an independent life, and he told me he has been working on “life skills” and wished that instead taking all the stupid classes he is required to take in high school, they would require a “Life Skills” class that teaches kids how to cook simple meals, manage a budget, get a job, clean, do simple repairs, etc. Smart kid. Too bad his parents sabotaged his chances.

His siblings aren’t much better off. One of them also has autism of a different type, and it is highly unlikely that he will ever be able to live independently of his parents. He’s very difficult to get along with and has no friends.

As for the parents–one of them works as a mechanic, but the other…wait for it…has a Masters Degree in Nursing!! And yet, they denied the autism for years and insisted that their kids were just fine, leave’ 'em alone!

Grrr. Makes my blood pressure go through the roof. I hate to see a neglected child. We tried to intervene, but were basically told to go away.

 

[Socrates92]

Are they at least starting to treat the autism now though? I would be pretty embarrassed if I had the M.A in nursing at this point…

 

[Peeps]

Are they at least starting to treat the autism now though? I would be pretty embarrassed if I had the M.A in nursing at this point…

Yes, thank you for asking. And I think the boys are a little happier now that they are aware that their issues are not “self-made” but are caused in large part by their autism.
They are old enough to take some responsibility for cooperating with their various treatments.

 

[phil3]

And there’s this from Pope Francis: https://www.commonwealmagazine.org/pope-says-universal-health-care-inalienable-right

He is wrong again…

 

[upant]

And there’s this from Pope Francis: https://www.commonwealmagazine.org/pope-says-universal-health-care-inalienable-right

are you sure pope francis said that?

it is from 2010 per the link that opened for me

but no matter, we already had what Benedict described. anyone could have gone to the emergency room and receive care. we had a minimal level of care.

minimal levels of medical attention to all is “commonly accepted as a fundamental human right.”

 

[RCIAGraduate]

but no matter, we already had what Benedict described. anyone could have gone to the emergency room and receive care. we had a minimal level of care.

I think the ER is lacking though, aren’t they mostly geared towards stabilizing patients which isn’t so helpful for those in need of more routine and regular care. Maybe pair it with Community Health Centers can be do more like the primary and preventative stuff and maybe more if they had more help or give a generous grant to hospitals (we already did but maybe something bigger to account for a larger uninsured population) so they can create their own indigent health care systems?

How do you think we can reduce the number of uninsured, maybe create a set aside for Medicaid at least though I am worried people might just end up bandwagoning that program or employers might drop their workers because they know there’s a back up available, but what about those who aren’t covered?

How would you alleviate the gap? We have public exchanges, couldn’t pouring more money into them and making sure they don’t cover abortion/contraception be something you support?

 

[phil3]

Honestly, I’m open to a creative-problem-solving approach to this problem. Medicare-for-All may be one solution. Others have proposed that private insurance no longer be employer-based and instead go out on an open, more competitive market. I’ll frankly take either option over what we have now.

I agree with “private insurance no longer be employer-based and instead go out on an open, more competitive market”. Competition will lower the cost.

I also think there can be a 10.5% voluntary tax that people who need health care can have deducted from their check into the medcaid/medicare system. Other who want to help can have 6% taken from their check to help those in need.

I love my health care and since my health care cost the government nothing, it is none of their business how much I spend on it.

 

[Sarcelle]

Whether or not we oppose universal healthcare, the state of healthcare in this nation needs to be fixed and fast.

The state of healthcare as it stands now is optimized for the benefit of insurance companies and big pharma to our detriment.

It’s not enough to be satisfied with the status quo.

Sure one may have the care they need now but anything can and will change. Lose a job, get sick and before you know it, you’re looking bankruptcy in the eye.

 

[Sarcelle]

I agree with “private insurance no longer be employer-based and instead go out on an open, more competitive market”. Competition will lower the cost.

To make it even more free market, get rid of the insurance government lobbyists.

These companies should sink or swim on their own without buying off politicians.

 

[Sarcelle]

Hmm, I do care deeply about the state of healthcare in this country.

It’s like the way some people care about climate change.

I’ll look deeper into what can be done and maybe there is something I can do in my own small way and may God multiply my meager loaves and fishes.

 

[DarkLight]

I think the ER is lacking though, aren’t they mostly geared towards stabilizing patients which isn’t so helpful for those in need of more routine and regular care.

A lot of people miss this point. The trouble is you get people cycling in and out of the ER because they can’t afford their medicine. An ER will keep you from dying once you’re there. They won’t give you the care you need to stay out. Nor the care to recover once you don’t need to be in the hospital.

 

[RCIAGraduate]

Yeah maybe partnering with Community Health Centers or giving grants to hospitals to providing a more comprehensive network of (uncompensated) care could help address that?

I know high risk pools aren’t perfect but maybe a generously funded one could work, the issue is funding said pools.