Study: When Counting Premiums, US Workers Heavily Taxed

[Sarcelle]

Nonetheless true.

Profit is the almighty God here.

People’s health is what at stake here and is exploited for the sake of profit.

 

[Zzyzx_Road]

You mentioned up thread that your taxes when living in London were far higher than what you paid whilst living in the US. Can I ask what the amount difference was?

First, I said “very high tax rates”; I said nothing about my own situation which as an expat was covered by the the tax treaties between the US and the UK, these were specific to my situation and not applicable to the normal UK citizen. But I was living there, I had friends there and I could not help but notice their tax rates.

UK income tax allows for a small exclusion off the top but beyond that while there are progressive levels, they do not have itemized deductions. Like there is no deduction there for mortgage interest or local taxes. So keep that in mind when researching UK income tax rates.

For further research, check out National Insurance, council tax and VAT.

 

[Zzyzx_Road]

A few posts up, @Crocus referred to the saying “pay me now or pay me later.” With undocumented immigrants, it’s better that they receive affordable, preventative health care rather than showing up later in the emergency room, where EMTALA prohibits their being turned away. So covering this population isn’t as scandalous as it may sound.

I understand your argument regarding public health. But illegal immigrants are a net benefit only to those who employ them; they mostly don’t benefit the rest of us and providing this care above and beyond what we do for our own citizens often acts as an incentive for more of them to come here to get their conditions taken care of. Why are my local neighbors less important in this respect that my neighbors on the other side of the border? Want to come here? Get in line, apply for one of the legal visas and don’t be a public charge for at least some minimum number of years.

We’re about the only country in the world that pays for illegals to have care beyond basic emergency rooms. Most Americans instinctively understand that when something gets subsidized, one can expect a lot more of it. This goes far enough, there may be a time when people born here will claim to be illegals so they can partake in this bounty.

 

[Balto1]

But illegal immigrants are a net benefit only to those who employ them; they mostly don’t benefit the rest of us

They benefit us by giving us a wonderful opportunity to demonstrate Christ’s love.

This goes far enough, there may be a time when people born here will claim to be illegals so they can partake in this bounty.

Ludicrous.

 

[phil3]

But illegal immigrants are a net benefit only to those who employ them;

But they are a direct harm to many people. Illegals keep wages artificially low.

 

[_Ruby]

_Ruby:

You mentioned up thread that your taxes when living in London were far higher than what you paid whilst living in the US. Can I ask what the amount difference was?

First, I said “very high tax rates”; I said nothing about my own situation which as an expat was covered by the the tax treaties between the US and the UK, these were specific to my situation and not applicable to the normal UK citizen. But I was living there, I had friends there and I could not help but notice their tax rates.

UK income tax allows for a small exclusion off the top but beyond that while there are progressive levels, they do not have itemized deductions. Like there is no deduction there for mortgage interest or local taxes. So keep that in mind when researching UK income tax rates.

For further research, check out National Insurance, council tax and VAT.

Oh I don’t need further research - I am a UK citizen, I am very well acquainted with the tax I am paying.

I am less acquainted with the US tax rates in comparison, which prompted my question. 90% of the UK tax payers fall into the 20% income tax bracket and have the additional 12% national insurance contribution on top.

I Recently had a baby and joined an online forum for pregnant woman, many who are US based and often post about the cost of their healthcare insurance and deductibles etc. The amounts they are paying come nowhere close to what is taken from my pay each month in taxes, and that is just healthcare costs alone, not including their baseline tax rate, so I question how that adds up against what is considered a ‘very high tax rate’ in other places.

 

[Zzyzx_Road]

I am less acquainted with the US tax rates in comparison, which prompted my question. 90% of the UK tax payers fall into the 20% income tax bracket and have the additional 12% national insurance contribution on top.

Ruby, you know all about what I’ll put out here, I’m offering this for our fellow posters from the US.

I lived in London; pay packages in the UK frequently include a standard rate and a London supplement rate. It is not hard for a significant number of Londoners to be in the 40% bracket. Only takes about $65500 in USD. At that wage, married filing jointly in the US only pays 12% top bracket and that is after the standard deduction is subtracted ($24k for married couples so one would end up being charged tax on $41k income). If one has itemized deductions that exceed the standard deduction, then the higher itemized amount can be used in lieu of the standard deduction. UK taxpayers don’t have that. US taxpayers can deduct mortgage interest. UK taxpayers cannot.

It is easy for families here headed by self employed contractors to pay more for health insurance and deductibles than they do for taxes. But at least here, it is an option, albeit a risky one.

There is no income cap on the UK NI contribution as there is for the US FICA+Medicare. US FICA+Medicare rate is 15.3% from the first dollar to $137k. UK NI rate is somewhat dependent on income level but beyond that is 15.8% with no income limit. Remember I am calculating both the employer paid portion along with the employee portion as the employer portion must be included to get a fair reckoning of tax burdens.

UK VAT is 20%. That is rather regressive in its disproportionate effect on lower income brackets. US equivalent is sales tax and I don’t know of any locality in the US that has a rate higher than 10%. I’m sure they exist, but they’re going to be rare.

There are state income tax rates in the US, but these vary widely so I won’t go into those.

 

[phil3]

At least everybody has health coverage! It is rationed of if a pill can kinda fix the problem instead of surgery that will fix it. Youre getting a pill.

 

[Crocus]

At least everybody has health coverage! It is rationed of if a pill can kinda fix the problem instead of surgery that will fix it. Youre getting a pill.

Personal experience?

 

[blackforest]

I’m seeing here a different claim here in this Twitter exchange than ones stated in this thread. Can anybody provide links, either way?

(Please Note: This uploaded content is no longer available.)

 

[Zzyzx_Road]

For starters that fellow isn’t counting NI. At all. Between employer and employee paid portions, NI mostly 15.8% with no income cap.

Second, his personal comparison is specious and should not be taken seriously because if 4% of his income is £10 per month, then his income per month is only £250 per month, about $325. Apples vs oranges. People who make $325 per month in the US can avail themselves of Medicaid and ER’s.

 

[RCIAGraduate]

Conversely, what would be your response to the argument that having a public tier pushes the private options to be of quality; meanwhile here, we seem to have horror stories where insurers can decide to deny care which can lead to suffering and death of patients, people who paid their dues and expected their insurer to back them up but they don’t? A third of the country seems to be struggling with the health care issue because either they’re uninsured or they can’t afford medical bills like deductibles or copays for expensive medications, what can be done for them (high risk pools, premium subsidies, etc)?

That said, recalling your previous post, do you think ending that one (the Ferguson one) in order to prompt Anti Trust Action on health insurance companies would be a great start, what about that other law (was it ending or banning Certificate of Need to prevent hospital monopolies/oligopolies and promote competition), also I believe there’s a bottleneck of Medical School and Residency Slots, could ending that also help (though someone here in forum did suggest the idea of free medical school, what about the idea of offering having tuition free, free room and board (plus free books and tutoring) medical and nursing schools that way, we can promote a good job path for people (perhaps target people from more modest backgrounds) not to mention get a handle on the supply situation? As well as allowing PAs and NPs to do their thing (medical licensing reforms)?

Additionally, would speeding up and lightening the FDA process, allowing drug importation and shortening patents to 10 years help as well? I heard about the idea of tort reform to cut down on defensive medicine but are you sure that issue/problem isn’t over hyped (there’s reasons for tort law to protect patients from malpractice)? Price transparency seems to be coming though, so at least, there’s a start there but isn’t more substantive action needed to really tackle the issue?

Also, what I’ve heard is that ESI or the Employer Exclusion on Health Plans is another issue to tackle, while a lot of people have really great plans, it seems to cause people who don’t get covered by their jobs to lose out like part time workers, workers in smaller and maybe mid-sized firms as well as independent contractors (as well as self employed/small business folks trying to make it big ), what solutions can be crafted to help the working uninsured as well? And like I said already, isn’t there a point where safety nets are needed?

In the long term, would single payer be so bad, we wouldn’t want it to fund abortion/birth control, yet other than that, is that bad? The economy might get shaken up but won’t she eventually adjust, ending job lock due to health plans would promote worker mobility or even business start ups, if people can see a doctor earlier with a fear of finances (perhaps an issue for many working class or even middle class), wouldn’t that also help prevent costly treatments and tragic outcomes? Why not, if I may ask you, I’d like to hear what you say?

I want to be on your side (the “right” side of the aisle) but isn’t it easy to see why that side is construed as villains?

 

[Crocus]

@RCIAGraduate, are you considering a job as a health policy analyst? You have the energy, the ideas, research abilities, willing to work with others (even those satisfied with status quo), sense of humor, positive outlook. And, people like you!

You can use this as a reference if you like.

 

[_Ruby]

For starters that fellow isn’t counting NI. At all. Between employer and employee paid portions, NI mostly 15.8% with no income cap.

Second, his personal comparison is specious and should not be taken seriously because if 4% of his income is £10 per month, then his income per month is only £250 per month, about $325. Apples vs oranges. People who make $325 per month in the US can avail themselves of Medicaid and ER’s.

I think you may have read/done the maths wrong on this.

The tweet said 4% of his income tax was paid towards the NHS, not 4% of his Overall income.

For example, I’m currently on £40k. My income tax falls within the 20% bracket, so £445.80 was deducted in income tax from my monthly pay. If I lived in Scotland and 4% of that is going towards the NHS there, then that amounts to around £18 pounds a month on healthcare.

He also isn’t counting NI contributions because NI does not go towards the NHS funding.

 

[Peeps]

If according to most progressives the UK system is superior to the US system

No way! I will never believe this when I look at British people’s teeth. Eugh. Even the celebs, and even the ROYALS (other than Duchess Megan, from the U.S.) have horrible teeth.

Sorry, OT, I know. But sometimes little things can indicate bigger problems.

 

[blackforest]

Outdated stereotype. The myth of bad British teeth - BBC News

Only 6% of UK adults have no natural teeth, the British Dental Association says. In 1978, the figure was as high as 37% in Wales.

Meanwhile, two in three children aged 12 are now found to be free of visible dental decay, compared with fewer than one in 10 in 1973.

 

[Theo520]

That twitter poster is wrong on facts, the posters $13 a month is heavily subsidized.

A more accurate comparison would be

In June 2018, an Organization for Economic Cooperation and Development (OECD) comparison found that Americans spent $10,209 per capita on healthcare versus $4,264 in the UK.

I’m all for reducing the cost of US healthcare, what we have been doing isn’t working.

 

[DarkLight]

No way! I will never believe this when I look at British people’s teeth. Eugh. Even the celebs, and even the ROYALS (other than Duchess Megan, from the U.S.) have horrible teeth.

My understanding is this has more to do with social attitudes towards braces and crooked teeth. It’s pretty standard in the US for people to get braces at some point and we tend to expect straight teeth. Meanwhile the UK tends to not give out braces unless someone’s experiencing pain or difficulty eating. The result is that a lot of Brits have teeth that are healthy, but look bad to Americans who are not used to seeing crooked teeth.

At least everybody has health coverage! It is rationed of if a pill can kinda fix the problem instead of surgery that will fix it. Youre getting a pill.

That would be my biggest concern, honestly. I’ve heard a lot of complaints especially about mental health care in the UK. There’s a stronger preference for medications and an overemphasis on brief forms of psychotherapy that save the taxpayer money but may not actually be what the individual needs. Of course this is complicated by attitudes that - both in the US and the UK - don’t really take mental health care seriously or don’t understand how it works. (I would include in this also the very common misconception that therapy is all largely equivalent and any therapist can treat any outpatient mental health problem.)

 

[whatistrue]

No way! I will never believe this when I look at British people’s teeth. Eugh. Even the celebs, and even the ROYALS (other than Duchess Megan, from the U.S.) have horrible teeth.

Difference is that the UK culture cares more about whether the teeth are actually healthy than whether they are perfectly straight and blindingly white. By and large, dental health in the UK is just fine, if not better than in the US, even if cosmetic appearance is not perfect.

 

[Balto1]

I’m all for reducing the cost of US healthcare, what we have been doing isn’t working.

And of course the way to reduce the cost of healthcare is to remove the private companies skimming hundreds of billions of dollars in profit off the top of the nation’s healthcare spending.