Stumbling Block for Protestants?

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Hiya, Edwin! đź‘‹

Good to be back in dialogue with you. 🙂

So if you don’t think that the CC has been given the charism of infallibility, at least as it applies to discerning the NT canon, where do you think she erred?

I didn’t say it was logically necessary, given that the Church has gotten “so many things right”.

Only logically necessary for Per Crucem to conclude, specifically regarding his acknowledgement that the Church did indeed proclaim without error the canon of the NT.

That’s simply what infallible means.
According to whom? It’s not what any theological source I’m familiar with says it means. Newman makes quite a big deal about the distinction. Infallible means that the Church can’t be wrong, not simply that it is right.

You can of course use the term differently–I think a lot of folks, especially Catholics, do use it that way in practice. But I’m using it the way the Catholic Encyclopedia uses it: “infallibility means more than exemption from actual error; it means exemption from the possibility of error.” And it seems to me that this is a much better way to use the term, since we already have other ways of just saying that someone is right.

By your logic, wouldn’t Protestant churches that believe the Trinity also be “infallible”? Of course they got this from Catholicism, but still, there were doctrinal disputes regarding the Trinity in early Protestantism (and often since). Some Protestants fell into error, but others (the majority) made the right decision. No charism of infallibility, surely, is necessary to explain this?

Edwin
 
Then the fact that you can’t quite say “therefore the CC has been given the charism of infallibility” is a misstep in your own logic/reason.
I don’t see the necessary conclusion, PR. The church can get something right without having been given a charism of infallibility. That is not to say that it hasn’t been given one, just that it is not necessary. You and I can get plenty of things right without having a charism of infallibility. Even if the ancient church councils did have a charism of infallibility, it doesn’t follow that Rome can claim the same. The same argument for why Rome has it now can be made for Orthodoxy or Lutheranism or Anglicanism.

Be that as it may, I think this all had something to do with confession 🙂
 
I don’t see the necessary conclusion, PR. The church can get something right without having been given a charism of infallibility. That is not to say that it hasn’t been given one, just that it is not necessary. You and I can get plenty of things right without having a charism of infallibility. Even if the ancient church councils did have a charism of infallibility, it doesn’t follow that Rome can claim the same. The same argument for why Rome has it now can be made for Orthodoxy or Lutheranism or Anglicanism.

Be that as it may, I think this all had something to do with confession 🙂
I think the conclusion is not that “Infallibility is necessary and therefore Rome must have it”.

The correct conclusion driven forward is that “Infallibility is a logical necessity for any religion” and therefore “If Rome were to posses this infallibility, it should not shock someone that it is a foreign concept”.
 
I understand. But what I am asking is something a little different.

How did you go from “Jesus was raised from the dead” to Bible is the word of God? Is it because the Bible speaks about Jesus rising from the dead?
No, it is because Jesus affirms the Old Testament to be the word of God. Since the apostles were commissioned by Him to proclaim the word of God (i.e., His teachings, life, death, resurrection, etc.) it follows that the Triune God is with the apostolic ministry. I take that all as truth because He rose from the dead.
 
I think the conclusion is not that “Infallibility is necessary and therefore Rome must have it”.

The correct conclusion driven forward is that “Infallibility is a logical necessity for any religion” and therefore “If Rome were to posses this infallibility, it should not shock someone that it is a foreign concept”.
I disagree that it is a logical necessity. The only one necessary in the equation to be incapable of error is God.
 
I disagree that it is a logical necessity.
That is good. But you also have to give reasons. Can you perhaps take a look at what I wrote to Contarini and explain why you don’t? Also, can you reply to my other posts in reply to you?

forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=11253973&postcount=189

You also said “The only one necessary in the equation to be incapable of error is God.”. Can you elaborate how God’s infallibility helps you understand with accuracy what he is calling you to do?
 
That is good. But you also have to give reasons. Can you perhaps take a look at what I wrote to Contarini and explain why you don’t? Also, can you reply to my other posts in reply to you?
Yes, but bear in mind I am replying to four people at once 🙂 The reason it is not necessary is because God is the author of history. He is also perfect, immutable, etc. As such, it bears that whatever is in His will will be accomplished from beginning to end. Now, God could use an infallible agency (in the form of the Church) to carry out His will. Or, providence arranges things that regardless of the fallibility of the Church, history will culminate according to His providential will in the exact same way He states in Scripture. So, the only question, IMO, is not “is it necessary for the Church to be infallible,” but “What evidence exists that it is, in fact, infallible.” If the latter can be proven, more power to you. I don’t believe it to be the case.
You also said “The only one necessary in the equation to be incapable of error is God.”, is that an infallible statement?
No, just inerrant 🙂
 
Yes, but bear in mind I am replying to four people at once 🙂 The reason it is not necessary is because God is the author of history. He is also perfect, immutable, etc. As such, it bears that whatever is in His will will be accomplished from beginning to end. Now, God could use an infallible agency (in the form of the Church) to carry out His will. Or, providence arranges things that regardless of the fallibility of the Church, history will culminate according to His providential will in the exact same way He states in Scripture. So, the only question, IMO, is not “is it necessary for the Church to be infallible,” but “What evidence exists that it is, in fact, infallible.” If the latter can be proven, more power to you. I don’t believe it to be the case.

No, just inerrant 🙂
I see. So ok, if you are willing to discuss with me, can you answer my following question.

You said you knew from history that Christ rose from the dead. I agree that you can know this from history. But my question to you is, how did you go from that to accepting the Bible as the Word of God? Is it because it has that story in it?
 
I see. So ok, if you are willing to discuss with me, can you answer my following question.

You said you knew from history that Christ rose from the dead. I agree that you can know this from history. But my question to you is, how did you go from that to accepting the Bible as the Word of God? Is it because it has that story in it?
See post #194.
 
No, it is because Jesus affirms the Old Testament to be the word of God. Since the apostles were commissioned by Him to proclaim the word of God (i.e., His teachings, life, death, resurrection, etc.) it follows that the Triune God is with the apostolic ministry. I take that all as truth because He rose from the dead.
Sorry I missed this one.

But I am a bit confused. I can understand that you know Jesus died and rose from the dead through history. But how exactly did you know what Jesus said (that he affirmed the Old Testament)? What makes you think the Apostles were commissioned by him?

How also do you know that the God is triune? If it from history that is not included in the Bible? If so, are you aware of the concept of Apostolic Succession, Bishop of Rome and other elements of faith that are present in this same history? Why do you reject them while accepting the Triune nature of God? Why not reject that as well because it is not in the Bible?
 
Sorry I missed this one.

But I am a bit confused. I can understand that you know Jesus died and rose from the dead through history. But how exactly did you know what Jesus said (that he affirmed the Old Testament)? What makes you think the Apostles were commissioned by him?
I can approach the New Testament purely as a historical document, that has no inspiration to it, and still come to the conclusion that it is a reliable document on a secular level. Scholars, even atheist ones, admit as much. As such, I can trust that it accurately records what Jesus said and did. If it’s claim of the resurrection can be verified historically, than I have to take those words of Christ to their supernatural conclusion, including that Scripture is the word of God. If He didn’t rise from the dead, well, then the whole thing would be irrelevant.
How also do you know that the God is triune?
Outside of Scripture teaching it?
 
I can approach the New Testament purely as a historical document, that has no inspiration to it, and still come to the conclusion that it is a reliable document on a secular level. Scholars, even atheist ones, admit as much. As such, I can trust that it accurately records what Jesus said and did. If it’s claim of the resurrection can be verified historically, than I have to take those words of Christ to their supernatural conclusion, including that Scripture is the word of God. If He didn’t rise from the dead, well, then the whole thing would be irrelevant.
I am not sure I understand. By historical analysis, it can tell you that there is a historical tradition that suggests the first Apostles to be the authors of the New Testament. That still does not say why you should trust the first Apostles, right? Is there a specific reason you trust them? To trust them because of what is already in the NT is to say you trust them because of what they wrote about themselves. So what other reason do you have?
Outside of Scripture teaching it?
So you do hold that there are truths outside of Scripture that are equally important? How do you choose which ones to believe and which ones to reject? Why accept the Trinity while rejecting the equally mentioned concept of Apostolic Succession in the same documents that discuss the Trinity like the writings of the Church fathers?
 
a) To be Christian, one must know what it means to be truly be a Christian

If we are to hold that Christianity is the true faith, then it must follow that we must be able to know what it is.
Depends on what you mean by “know.” We must have legitimate grounds for our belief that Christianity is true and has a particular “shape.” But if by “knowledge” you mean what Aquinas means by it, then (according to Aquinas, and I think he is right) no such knowledge is possible of matters known solely from divine revelation. At the purely intellectual level, these things will always be a matter of opinion. (Note: that doesn’t mean what many modern people mean by it–a whim or a hunch–an opinion held by a rational, intelligent person will of course have plenty of rational grounds, just not demonstrative proof that puts it beyond the possibility of doubt.) The certainty, according to Aquinas, comes from the virtue of faith, which is a gift of the Holy Spirit.

More modern Christians, both Catholics and Protestants, have responded to the reality of Christian disunity and the challenges of modern secularism by seeking a more “solid” epistemological foundation. These efforts seem to me to be consistently misguided.
At a given time we may not now it completely but we must know it as much as it pertains to the circumstance at hand and in full.
I’m not quite sure what this means.
If we cannot know the actual true faith, then it does follow that Christianity is pointless since no one really knows if what they believe is actually Christian.
Not pointless, just dependent on faith, as the truth of Christianity itself is. (Again, that doesn’t mean that we have no grounds for our faith.)
b) To know what it truly means to be Christian, one needs an infallible source
This too seems to follow. We see this in the practice of even Protestants as they hold Scripture to be infallible. Of course, how they come to know if it is infallible is a big issue that suggests something missing in their thinking.
Some Protestants do fall into the error of grounding epistemological certainty in the infallibility of Scripture. The Catholic version of this is perhaps a bit better, but has the same fatal flaw. How do you know the Church is infallible?

The only answer to this that I’ve seen is the “spiral argument” popularized by Karl Keating (though it’s found in the Catholic Encyclopedia, so Keating didn’t make it up–the Protestant version, pertaining simply to Scripture, was made by Benjamin Warfield, I believe.) According to this argument,
  1. we can establish by purely historical grounds that Scripture is reliable;
  2. Scripture teaches that the Church is infallible
But both 1 and 2 are subject to all kinds of doubt. Most historians think that the “upon this rock” passage in Matt. 16, for instance (a key passage in the argument for infallibility from Scripture) was not said by Jesus but was added by the author of Matthew as a kind of theological commentary. Now they may be right, or they may be wrong, but just the possibility that they are right is enough to overthrow the argument. It is plainly false by any reasonable standard to claim that purely by historical methods one can establish the complete reliability of Scripture. Where this is believed, it is believed as a matter of faith.

Furthermore, even if all historians agreed on the reliability of Scripture, the argument would still fail, for reasons pointed out by Aquinas: as a matter of principle, no claim about history can be proven with complete certainty by reason alone. It always remains possible that some evidence not yet discovered will knock currently accepted theories into a cocked hat. (This, of course, is also why one should be slow to abandon one’s beliefs based on current scholarly theories.)

Thus, positing the infallibility of the Church doesn’t help you with the basic “certainty problem.” You still have to explain how you know that the Church is infallible in the first place.
I think if one were to think a bit on this issue, the above seems clear. With respect to writings and oral traditions, we do know that it can appear ambiguous at times. There has to be someone who can step in and say “THIS is the right interpretation”.
But for this to have a chance of working (as an answer to the problem–in my opinion a false problem–you have raised), you’d have to have a person possessed of infallibility in all their utterances. Catholicism does not claim this. (If you really want to be picky, you could argue that even a Pope who was infallible in everything he said would be subject to a kind of infinite regress–each statement clarifying the previous one would in turn need to be clarified. But in fact no such personal infallibility exists, by the common consent of all Christians, so we needn’t get that abstruse.) Only certain Papal and conciliar statements are infallible (besides the “ordinary magisterium,” which is, if anything, even harder to discern than the proper interpretation of Scripture). These statements often need to be explained, and the explanations are not usually themselves infallible (let alone the problem of discerning just which Papal and conciliar statements are infallible).
d) So infallibility seems to be a logical necessity for any religion
No, it doesn’t.
As for posterior arguments, they cannot be used because one cannot prove infallibility posteriori. It would be impossible to prove it logically because one has to presume knowledge of the infallible kind about what is been pronounced infallibly.
There is no demonstrative proof possible. But there are plausible arguments that show the reasonableness of the Catholic (as of the more broadly Christian) position.

Edwin
 
Some Protestants do fall into the error of grounding epistemological certainty in the infallibility of Scripture. The Catholic version of this is perhaps a bit better, but has the same fatal flaw. How do you know the Church is infallible?

The only answer to this that I’ve seen is the “spiral argument” popularized by Karl Keating (though it’s found in the Catholic Encyclopedia, so Keating didn’t make it up–the Protestant version, pertaining simply to Scripture, was made by Benjamin Warfield, I believe.) According to this argument,
  1. we can establish by purely historical grounds that Scripture is reliable;
  2. Scripture teaches that the Church is infallible
But both 1 and 2 are subject to all kinds of doubt. Most historians think that the “upon this rock” passage in Matt. 16, for instance (a key passage in the argument for infallibility from Scripture) was not said by Jesus but was added by the author of Matthew as a kind of theological commentary. Now they may be right, or they may be wrong, but just the possibility that they are right is enough to overthrow the argument. It is plainly false by any reasonable standard to claim that purely by historical methods one can establish the complete reliability of Scripture. Where this is believed, it is believed as a matter of faith.
That argument by Keating is certainly not very convincing because it assumes an implicit premise that we already accept the Bible as the word of God.

I would like to present an alternate argument but to do so, I must first establish something else with you. I would like to do that by first allowing our discussion to continue a bit more.

My first question you is, how do you know what it means to be Christian?
 
I can approach the New Testament purely as a historical document, that has no inspiration to it, and still come to the conclusion that it is a reliable document on a secular level. Scholars, even atheist ones, admit as much.
I’d love to hear who these scholars are. Of course many scholars, even secular ones, grant that Scripture is a valuable historical source, with some parts of it being fairly reliable and others not so much. But I don’t know of any scholars who think that the Gospels are either entirely or mostly reliable as a description of what Jesus said and did, except scholars who are committed to this position as a matter of faith. (That doesn’t make those faith-based scholars wrong–obviously non-believing scholars have their own biases, and it may be that the Gospels are the kinds of texts that can only be rightly interpreted by faith. But that’s not what you are claiming.)
If it’s claim of the resurrection can be verified historically, than I have to take those words of Christ to their supernatural conclusion, including that Scripture is the word of God. If He didn’t rise from the dead, well, then the whole thing would be irrelevant.
There are secular/non-Christian scholars (Paula Fredriksen, for instance) who say that the earliest disciples clearly believed that Jesus had risen from the dead. But that’s not the same thing as saying that He did rise. And Fredriksen certainly doesn’t think the Gospels are entirely accurate, or even primarily historical texts at all.

Edwin
 
I can approach the New Testament purely as a historical document, that has no inspiration to it, and still come to the conclusion that it is a reliable document on a secular level. Scholars, even atheist ones, admit as much.
Per Crucem, meet Bart Ehrman.
 
I am not sure I understand. By historical analysis, it can tell you that there is a historical tradition that suggests the first Apostles to be the authors of the New Testament. That still does not say why you should trust the first Apostles, right? Is there a specific reason you trust them? To trust them because of what is already in the NT is to say you trust them because of what they wrote about themselves. So what other reason do you have?
Because of what they wrote about themselves? Well, all I can say is that unless there is evidence that can concretely convince me that some Jewish fisherman and a tax collector orchestrated the entire affair under the pretenses of being the messengers of the incarnate God, the evidence as it exists says otherwise. There are numerous resources out there that give reasons as to why we can consider the apostles trustworthy. Dying for their message, the way they include even negative representations of themselves, that history affirms their historical observations, etc. But I don’t see any reason to rehash every reason here.
So you do hold that there are truths outside of Scripture that are equally important?
No.
How do you choose which ones to believe and which ones to reject?
Does the Trinity accord with Scripture and the witness of the very earliest Christian sources and continuing down the succeeding years all the way to Nicea to today?

Does purgatory?
Does papal infallibility?
Does the treasury of merit?
Does the assumption?
Why accept the Trinity while rejecting the equally mentioned concept of Apostolic Succession in the same documents that discuss the Trinity like the writings of the Church fathers?
Apostolic succession as defined by the modern Catholic Church? No, I don’t think so. At least, not the specifics.
 
As such, I can trust that it accurately records what Jesus said and did. If it’s claim of the resurrection can be verified historically, than I have to take those words of Christ to their supernatural conclusion, including that Scripture is the word of God. If He didn’t rise from the dead, well, then the whole thing would be irrelevant.
Help me understand this.

You would rather be historically critical to determine if Scriptures are Divinely Inspired?

At this point you are coming off as looking at anything but the Catholic Church (From 33AD to the Present) for anything Christian.
 
That argument by Keating is certainly not very convincing because it assumes an implicit premise that we already accept the Bible as the word of God.

I would like to present an alternate argument but to do so, I must first establish something else with you. I would like to do that by first allowing our discussion to continue a bit more.

My first question you is, how do you know what it means to be Christian?
Depends on what you mean by that. I can ascertain historically the range of meaning the word “Christian” has had. This has relevance for the project of being a Christian, obviously, but equally obviously it only goes so far.

The short answer to the question I think you are asking is, “Because I trust the testimony of the Church, confirmed at least to a large extent by historical inquiry, rational analysis, and personal experience.”

Edwin
 
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