Stumbling Block for Protestants?

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** Originally Posted by Per Crucem View Post

Does the Trinity accord with Scripture and the witness of the very earliest Christian sources and continuing down the succeeding years all the way to Nicea to today?**

Matthew 28:19

“Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost.”

Thus sayeth the Son.It doesn’t get any more authentic or more obvious than that.
 
** Originally Posted by Per Crucem View Post

Does the Trinity accord with Scripture and the witness of the very earliest Christian sources and continuing down the succeeding years all the way to Nicea to today?**

Matthew 28:19

“Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost.”

Thus sayeth the Son.It doesn’t get any more authentic or more obvious than that.
You’re right, it doesn’t. The initial question was rhetorical.
 
In respect to the fact that he teaches apostolic doctrine, yes.
That is not what Apostolic succession is. It means that you have a bishop who was ordained by a bishop who was ordained by a bishop who was ordained by a bishop… who was ordained by one of the Apostles. You must succeed in an unbroken line, all the way back or you do not have Apostolic succession.
 
What would jeopardize a someone’s salvation? I would like to say for starters that I (and all other humans on the earth that are honest) can not for certain say who is or is not going to Hell.
This is very Catholic. 👍
Now, for your examples. I do not think that praying to Mary or any of the other people that are thought to be in Heaven, is a sin. There does not seem to be anything in the Bible that would contradict it. Refusing blood transfusion for a child could fall under “You shall not kill”.
Fair enough. But how do you know? Who decides?
Now onto what constitutes the canon of the Bible. I cannot claim to be an expert on the matter, but can add my 2 cents. I cannot comprehensively say what should be in the Bible, but I can say with some certainty what should not. The Apocryphal books contain errors and contradictions. Later tonight or tomorrow morning I will post what appears to be wrong with the Apocryphal books
Yes. That would be helpful.

And please note: you cannot use the criterion “it teaches something that’s contrary to the Bible, therefore it doesn’t belong in the Bible”…

because, of course, that is circular reasoning.

You need to have some other criterion for how to know what to exclude or include in the Bible.
 
According to whom?
According to the Church, Edwin. The charism of infallibility means that the Church is protected by the Holy Spirit from teaching error.

That is, it is a negative charism. That which she proclaims will never be in error.
It’s not what any theological source I’m familiar with says it means. Newman makes quite a big deal about the distinction. Infallible means that the Church can’t be wrong, not simply that it is right.
Yep. That’s exactly what I’ve said. 👍
But I’m using it the way the Catholic Encyclopedia uses it
Me, too.
By your logic, wouldn’t Protestant churches that believe the Trinity also be “infallible”?
If they were the ones who proclaimed it, then, yes, indeed, they would. 🙂

But the fact is, the Protestant churches which proclaim the Trinity do so on the back of the Catholic Church, which discerned this dogma for us.
 
That is not what Apostolic succession is. It means that you have a bishop who was ordained by a bishop who was ordained by a bishop who was ordained by a bishop… who was ordained by one of the Apostles. You must succeed in an unbroken line, all the way back or you do not have Apostolic succession.
If Per Crucem’s bishop rec’d laying on of hands from a European bishop [Lutheran] he would have AP. I think the Diocese of North America are mainly former LCMS members.
 
I don’t see the necessary conclusion, PR. The church can get something right without having been given a charism of infallibility.
Except, Per Crucem, they did this on multiple occasions.

They did so at the Synod of Rome.
And then at Hippo.
And then again at Carthage.
And again at Carthage a few decades later.
And then at Nicea.
And then again at Florence
And then again at Trent.

So you’d really have to suspend any kind of logic in order to continue to say, “Well, the Church didn’t err at Rome… And she didn’t err at HIppo. And she didn’t err at Carthage. And again at Carthage. And she didn’t err at Nicea. And she didn’t err at Florence. And she didn’t err at Trent…But she’s *still *not infallible.” :whacky:
 
Yeah, Jesus talked about false Prophets however and then talked about those who say, “Lord Lord.” Muslims are not Christians, JW’s are not Christians and Mormons are not Christians. I don’t know why Protestants are ever compared to any of them.
I am not comparing Protestants to them.

I am simply saying that if you use the criteria of “My church does a lot of good. We have a lot of nice people. We baptize a lot of folks. It makes me feel good to worship there”…then this would mean that Mormons also should remain in their church…even if their doctrines are in error. Point is that they are happy where they are and spread bonhomie and good will.
 
You asked why I thought their witness to the resurrection was reliable.
Yes, but that doesn’t make them reliable with respect to everything else they said. The resurrection only constitutes a very small percentage of even the gospel narratives.
You’d have to point out what it is they accept that I reject.
Well, Marian doctrine for one I am sure you reject. The office of Bishop being above that of priest for one which you certainly have to reject in order to even become Protestant (its founder Luther was a priest).
I am not arguing that Rome thinks the Orthodox are in heresy. My point is, the west and east do not agree on the details of apostolic succession. Rome believes succession is irrevocable. The east does not. That is why the east does not believe the west has valid apostolic succession, because to her, the west teaches false doctrine. Therefore, their succession has been lost.
Yes, but all of this relies on whether or not you accept the East vs. the West. As far as Apostolic Succession goes, both sides agree that it is a valuable part of the Church. Protestants on the other hand do not.

So lets work one thing at a time. Do you admit that at least the concept of Apostolic Succession was rejected by Protestants in an unreasonable manner when the entire Church apart from it accepts its validity as historical?
 
If Per Crucem’s bishop rec’d laying on of hands from a European bishop [Lutheran] he would have AP. I think the Diocese of North America are mainly former LCMS members.
What is the origin of the very first Bishop? Luther, as you may already know, was not a Bishop.
 
I see. It appears there is much difference between you and I on what constitutes plausible reasons.
Yes. You appear to be what William Abraham calls a “hard rationalist,” while I am a “soft rationalist.”
To better understand you, can you explain what are plausible reasons for believing God is a trinity
  1. There is good historical reason to believe that the first-century rabbi called Jesus of Nazareth acted in very weird ways for someone who appears to have been a remarkably wise and good person. (i.e., the “liar, lunatic, Lord” argument, though it is commonly given far too “hard rationalist” a form.) The Christian tradition’s explanation of this weird behavior is that Jesus was the incarnation of the divine Logos, and that the human Jesus’ trusting relationship with God mirrored an eternal relationship between the Logos and the Father. This is weird, but weird in the same way the historical Jesus appears to have been weird—weird in the way that observable reality is repeatedly weird.
  2. Christians over time, including myself (though being a doubting, hesitating kind of person, I can’t claim that my own experience is terribly compelling) have experienced God’s presence in our lives in a way that Christian tradition describes in terms of the Holy Spirit–the living breath of God, personal in the same way God the Father and the Son are personal, but one Being with them.
  3. The idea is just beautiful, and beauty is the best reason for believing anything.
  4. The Trinity makes sense of the statement “God is love.”
  5. It posits both unity and plurality in God, and thus accounts for human intuition and experience of the divine better than either a “simple monotheist” or polytheist account does.
These are just the first five reasons that come to mind. They don’t stand well as isolated arguments–the point I’m trying to make is that historical and rational and experiential considerations all reinforce each other (and/or clash with each other–there are reasons not to believe in the Trinity, of course, though from my perspective very few to believe in a strictly monotheistic, non-Trinitarian, non-incarnating, transcendent Deity). The many other reasons for trusting both Scripture and the Church are also an indispensable part of why I believe in the Trinity–in fact, the witness of the Church, as I said in my earlier post, is the primary reason.

I must decline to go through all my beliefs and list all my reasons for believing in them. That would just take too long! Indeed, listing reasons in this way really doesn’t describe anything very adequately. A better way to put it would be this:

I have been taught certain beliefs from childhood. As I grew up, I challenged these beliefs. Some of them came to seem very unconvincing (dispensationalist eschatology, for instance, or a strictly invisible view of the Church, or the sinfulness of drinking alcohol). Others continue to compel me. My reasons for believing what I believe are narrative. I don’t start out by compiling a list of pros and cons. I think this is a very bad way to arrive at any important belief. Rather, you start where you are, and you challenge what you come to see as needing challenging.
Well for one, you haven’t given reasons. So can you explain? Is it historical? Or is it based on your personal preference?
Yes. It’s not either/or.

The Church is trustworthy for thousands of reasons (and untrustworthy for hundreds). But again, just to list a few, they would be:
  1. The witness of the earliest Christians to the resurrection, which gives me plausible reason to think that God has really broken into history in a very strange way.
  2. The consistency and beauty of the development of Catholic faith from radical, apocalyptic Judaism, assimilating elements of pagan thought and creating an intellectual, aesthetic, and spiritual synthesis combining the strengths of both Judaism and Greco-Roman paganism. I.e., as a Catholic Christian I can have both Isaiah and Plato. And if Isaiah and Plato are not both more or less right about the things that matter most, then it seems hardly worthwhile to think about anything at all. Or, more broadly, as I said above, Catholic Christianity manages to combine elements of monotheism and polytheism. Rather than a weakness, this seems to me to be an almost unbeatable strength.
  3. The examples of sanctity produced by the Church.
  4. The Church’s survival in spite of the conspicuous lack of sanctity of many of its leaders.
  5. The persistence of the radical witness of Jesus within an institution that often seems to have betrayed that witness.
Of course each of these could be expanded on, and I could go on listing other factors all night.

Edwin
 
What I am saying is that they changed the Bible to mean what they want it to say, not what the Greek says.
Every translation is a “translation”. Does it matter what the Greek or the Latin says or does it matter what God wants to say?
The word, “Trinity” seems absurd if you have not read the Bible; but if one reads the Bible, one can understand it.
Jehovah’s Witness read the same Bible. They don’t see eye to eye with you.
To say that the Trinity is not found in Scripture just because the word Trinity does not appear is not true at all. Trinity is just the word we use to define the Father, Son and Holy Spirit working in Unity as One. We could still believe in the Trinity based on what Scripture says without calling it, “The Trinity.”
Spoken like a TRUE CATHOLIC 🙂

What you may have not realized is that every Catholic doctrine appears this way in Scripture and Tradition too. You will just say that you do not like the Catholic interpretation of Scripture that suggests such things.

So this is what I want you to realize.

Protestants ask for everything to be shown to be in the Bible when they themselves believe things that are not explicit in the Bible.

Protestants themselves accept a particular interpretation of the Bible among many yet they disagree with the Catholic interpretation of it.

What basis does a Protestant have to pick one interpretation as better than another? Is it reason? If reason were a basis, the doctrine of the Trinity would be the first to be thrown out.
 
What is the origin of the very first Bishop? Luther, as you may already know, was not a Bishop.
You are the second poster to suggest that Luther was a bishop or consecreted a bishop :confused:
Lutheran claims to apostolic succession

In Scandinavia, most Lutheran churches participating in the Porvoo Communion, those of Iceland, Norway, Sweden, Finland, Estonia, and Lithuania, believe that they ordain their bishops in the apostolic succession in lines stemming from the original apostles.[89] The New Westminster Dictionary of Church History states that “In Sweden the apostolic succession was preserved because the Catholic bishops were allowed to stay in office, but they had to approve changes in the ceremonies.”[90]
What made the Church of Sweden an evangelical-catholic church was to Archbishop Söderblom the fact that the Reformation in Sweden was a ‘church improvement’ and a ‘process of purification’ which did not create a new church. As a national church, the Church of Sweden succeeded in bringing together medieval Swedish tradition with the rediscovery of the gospel which the Reformation brought with it. Archbishop Söderblom included the historic episcopate in the tradition-transmitting elements. The Church of Sweden was, according to Söderblom, in an even higher degree than the Anglican Church a via media. —Together in Mission and Ministry: The Porvoo Common Statement[91]
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apostolic_succession#Lutheran_churches
 
Yes, but that doesn’t make them reliable with respect to everything else they said. The resurrection only constitutes a very small percentage of even the gospel narratives.
Why doesn’t it? You believe the apostles to have been completely trustworthy with saying that a dead man rose from the grave, but you say “ehhhhh I dunnooooo…” when it comes to them saying He told them to pass on His teachings?
Well, Marian doctrine for one I am sure you reject.
Depends on the doctrine.
The office of Bishop being above that of priest for one which you certainly have to reject in order to even become Protestant (its founder Luther was a priest).
I hold to a threefold division of the office of the ministry. Bishop, presbyter, and deacon. You do know there were bishops who supported the Reformation, yes?
Yes, but all of this relies on whether or not you accept the East vs. the West. As far as Apostolic Succession goes, both sides agree that it is a valuable part of the Church. Protestants on the other hand do not.
Depends on the Protestant. Anglicans certainly do.
So lets work one thing at a time. Do you admit that at least the concept of Apostolic Succession was rejected by Protestants in an unreasonable manner when the entire Church apart from it accepts its validity as historical?
Again, it depends on the Protestant. I think some of them dismissed it far too cavalierly. I’m thinking of the Reformed here.
 
If Per Crucem’s bishop rec’d laying on of hands from a European bishop [Lutheran] he would have AP. I think the Diocese of North America are mainly former LCMS members.
Well, I am too tired to go down that road tonight. We would not, I believe, agree that a bishop ordaining other bishops without the approval of the pope and possibly in conflict with the pope, has a valid ordination. But I’ve heard your argument, realize you believe it and respect that. That’s about as far as I want to go. 🙂

Have a good night.

Steve
 
Except, Per Crucem, they did this on multiple occasions.

They did so at the Synod of Rome.
And then at Hippo.
And then again at Carthage.
And again at Carthage a few decades later.
And then at Nicea.
And then again at Florence
And then again at Trent.

So you’d really have to suspend any kind of logic in order to continue to say, “Well, the Church didn’t err at Rome… And she didn’t err at HIppo. And she didn’t err at Carthage. And again at Carthage. And she didn’t err at Nicea. And she didn’t err at Florence. And she didn’t err at Trent…But she’s *still *not infallible.” :whacky:
I dunno…whole lotta eastern churches there. Do they still possess a charism of infallibility on faith and morals?
 
Yes. You appear to be what William Abraham calls a “hard rationalist,” while I am a “soft rationalist.”
  1. There is good historical reason to believe that the first-century rabbi called Jesus of Nazareth acted in very weird ways for someone who appears to have been a remarkably wise and good person. (i.e., the “liar, lunatic, Lord” argument, though it is commonly given far too “hard rationalist” a form.) The Christian tradition’s explanation of this weird behavior is that Jesus was the incarnation of the divine Logos, and that the human Jesus’ trusting relationship with God mirrored an eternal relationship between the Logos and the Father. This is weird, but weird in the same way the historical Jesus appears to have been weird—weird in the way that observable reality is repeatedly weird.
  2. Christians over time, including myself (though being a doubting, hesitating kind of person, I can’t claim that my own experience is terribly compelling) have experienced God’s presence in our lives in a way that Christian tradition describes in terms of the Holy Spirit–the living breath of God, personal in the same way God the Father and the Son are personal, but one Being with them.
  3. The idea is just beautiful, and beauty is the best reason for believing anything.
  4. The Trinity makes sense of the statement “God is love.”
  5. It posits both unity and plurality in God, and thus accounts for human intuition and experience of the divine better than either a “simple monotheist” or polytheist account does.
These are just the first five reasons that come to mind. They don’t stand well as isolated arguments–the point I’m trying to make is that historical and rational and experiential considerations all reinforce each other (and/or clash with each other–there are reasons not to believe in the Trinity, of course, though from my perspective very few to believe in a strictly monotheistic, non-Trinitarian, non-incarnating, transcendent Deity). The many other reasons for trusting both Scripture and the Church are also an indispensable part of why I believe in the Trinity–in fact, the witness of the Church, as I said in my earlier post, is the primary reason.

I must decline to go through all my beliefs and list all my reasons for believing in them. That would just take too long! Indeed, listing reasons in this way really doesn’t describe anything very adequately. A better way to put it would be this:

I have been taught certain beliefs from childhood. As I grew up, I challenged these beliefs. Some of them came to seem very unconvincing (dispensationalist eschatology, for instance, or a strictly invisible view of the Church, or the sinfulness of drinking alcohol). Others continue to compel me. My reasons for believing what I believe are narrative. I don’t start out by compiling a list of pros and cons. I think this is a very bad way to arrive at any important belief. Rather, you start where you are, and you challenge what you come to see as needing challenging.

Yes. It’s not either/or.

The Church is trustworthy for thousands of reasons (and untrustworthy for hundreds). But again, just to list a few, they would be:
  1. The witness of the earliest Christians to the resurrection, which gives me plausible reason to think that God has really broken into history in a very strange way.
  2. The consistency and beauty of the development of Catholic faith from radical, apocalyptic Judaism, assimilating elements of pagan thought and creating an intellectual, aesthetic, and spiritual synthesis combining the strengths of both Judaism and Greco-Roman paganism. I.e., as a Catholic Christian I can have both Isaiah and Plato. And if Isaiah and Plato are not both more or less right about the things that matter most, then it seems hardly worthwhile to think about anything at all. Or, more broadly, as I said above, Catholic Christianity manages to combine elements of monotheism and polytheism. Rather than a weakness, this seems to me to be an almost unbeatable strength.
  3. The examples of sanctity produced by the Church.
  4. The Church’s survival in spite of the conspicuous lack of sanctity of many of its leaders.
  5. The persistence of the radical witness of Jesus within an institution that often seems to have betrayed that witness.
Of course each of these could be expanded on, and I could go on listing other factors all night.

Edwin
Hmm. Very interesting.

But to raise one concern, it is that none of the things you mention can be used together with some rule we are familiar with respect to attaining knowledge to conclude that we must therefore believe in it, right?

Even the fact that Jesus was merely weird doesn’t help as much if not for the resurrection, right? Explanatory scope of Christianity is also not that great because of most of the valuable truths it claims to explain are beyond direct verification. The beauty exists but we know that beauty can be skin deep sometimes.

I was also not sure how you would know through experience that God is triune. Could you elaborate a bit more on that point.

Another question I would like to ask is, if you were an agnostic seeking for the truth, how would you arrive at Christianity as you know it? Here I do not mean how you come to know all the truths of Christianity are true. That is impossible because you cannot know most of the truths. That is why you have faith. But what I am asking is how do you verify enough truths of Christianity using reason/history to arrive at the conclusion that the truths you hold today are reasonable to accept as true and part of the package known as Christianity?
 
Well, I am too tired to go down that road tonight. We would not, I believe, agree that a bishop ordaining other bishops without the approval of the pope and possibly in conflict with the pope, has a valid ordination. But I’ve heard your argument, realize you believe it and respect that. That’s about as far as I want to go. 🙂

Have a good night.

Steve
Oh come on…you just came back to the thread. You can’t be tired already!
 
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