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pocohombre
Guest
oops.Think I meant who said there wasn’t ,and i see now who said it .Sorry
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pocohombre
Guest
For myself not sure authority is the word as much as is the word evidence.
For you as a Catholic I used it as authority, for it is part of Tradition (Father writings) that CC uses as authority.
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pocohombre
Guest
Partly .By definition tradition can simply be oral transmission of the gospel, not necessarily a practice or dogma surrounding it (another part of a possible definition). As I have stated in other threads, to me SS is adherence to what God has said (vocally or by inspiration), and what He has done, then put into writing. So one can cite what God has said, or what he has done, because it is in writing. So while we use the word “tradition” to describe the first preaching, we would not know with as much surety what was actually said had it not been written down. Because I agree to the obvious, oral transmission was before written, does not take away from a SS stance one takes after Jesus gave His written Word.Excellent. So you are not a Sola Scriptura advocate.
Of course, I already knew that. Anyone who accepts the 27 book canon of the NT can’t be a SS advocate.
But it’s nice to see you acknowledge that Sacred Tradition is part of the Faith.
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Porknpie
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By your logic Poco you should go get a Catholic bible with all 73 books…for only having 66 books is breaking from the Tradition that you acknowledge above.
This would be true if SS rejected the teaching role of the Church. But that is not the case. SS does not speak to what books make up the canon of scripture. That is the job of the Church. The Church then uses scripture as its final norm when determining doctrine and teaching. SS is simply the Church using scripture as the final norm to hold teaching and doctrine accountable.Excellent. So you are not a Sola Scriptura advocate.
Of course, I already knew that. Anyone who accepts the 27 book canon of the NT can’t be a SS advocate.
But it’s nice to see you acknowledge that Sacred Tradition is part of the Faith.
For the sola scripturist, Sacred Tradition is, of course, part of faith. It is a witness to the truth of the faith, the truth of scripture, though not equal to it.
Jon
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zz912
Guest
If you asked a Christian in the first 3 centuries what the New Testament was, what would be their response?
It wasn’t the 27 books we call the NT. A Christian in the first 3 centuries would point to the Eucharist and tell you that is the New Testament.
(BTW, “testament” means “covenant”, so New Testament really means New Covenant.)
Luke 22:14 When the hour came, he took his place at table with the apostles. 15 He said to them, “I have eagerly desired to eat this Passover with you before I suffer, 16 for, I tell you, I shall not eat it [again] until there is fulfillment in the kingdom of God.” 17 Then he took a cup, gave thanks, and said, “Take this and share it among yourselves; 18 for I tell you [that] from this time on I shall not drink of the fruit of the vine until the kingdom of God comes.” 19 Then he took the bread, said the blessing, broke it, and gave it to them, saying, “This is my body, which will be given for you; do this in memory of me.” 20 And likewise the cup after they had eaten, saying, “This cup is the new covenant in my blood, which will be shed for you.
It wasn’t the 27 books we call the NT. A Christian in the first 3 centuries would point to the Eucharist and tell you that is the New Testament.
(BTW, “testament” means “covenant”, so New Testament really means New Covenant.)
Luke 22:14 When the hour came, he took his place at table with the apostles. 15 He said to them, “I have eagerly desired to eat this Passover with you before I suffer, 16 for, I tell you, I shall not eat it [again] until there is fulfillment in the kingdom of God.” 17 Then he took a cup, gave thanks, and said, “Take this and share it among yourselves; 18 for I tell you [that] from this time on I shall not drink of the fruit of the vine until the kingdom of God comes.” 19 Then he took the bread, said the blessing, broke it, and gave it to them, saying, “This is my body, which will be given for you; do this in memory of me.” 20 And likewise the cup after they had eaten, saying, “This cup is the new covenant in my blood, which will be shed for you.
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Mlon
Guest
As a fellow Protestant I too have the same issues as you state above. The example for defense rooted in Old Testament Jewish tradition as far as I am concerned doesn’t make me feel warm a fuzzy. While the New Testament is rooted in the Old Testament the new covenant established by Christ’s sacrifice doesn’t mean we follow all the tenants of the law of Moses like circumcision, dietary and other areas of the old covenant. In fact, Paul chastised Peter for requiring Gentiles follow those very same traditions of the old covenant.
The point I am trying to make praying to anyone other to God is not scriptural. Like you said its one thing to hold them with respect and reverence, but completely another to ask them for intercession. Let me illustrate my point in a story. A number of years ago I used to live in a suburban community in the Pittsburgh, PA area. One day when driving through an adjacent neighborhood I noticed a yard with two statues, one of Jesus the other Mary. I was struck by the contrast of the two. The statue of Mary was around 2 foot tall while the one of Jesus was only 12" tall. The first thought that popped into my head was that’s someone who clearly doesn’t have their priorities straight. While Mary is truly blessed among women she cannot intercede for your sins. Sorry but ancient Jewish customs aside it is not scriptural and I will challenge anyone to find biblical reference to back it up.
Finally, the Job example of priestly intercession is the weakest argument of all that has been presented to me in my discussions. First, Job was written before the new convenient and Jesus’ sacrifice as the true mediator between humanity and the Father. In fact, since Job is the oldest book with no known author it could be dated before the great flood as far as we know. The point is intercession was completely different pre New Testament. Blood offering were commonplace usually through a priest.
Does all that mean not to join the RC church - no. In my opinion if there are elements that you do not agree with then don’t practice them. I know a person who is a practicing RC who is very devout, yet he does not agree with praying to saints or some of the other things discussed. I would challenge anyone to try to make a case against him. He is the type of person who truly walks the talk and is an example to anyone claiming to be a Christian. Just my thoughts. I’m now ready for the onslaught from my RC friends.
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stewstew03
Guest
And yet, among the reasons given by protestants (like Matt Slick) for excluding the deuterocanonical books is “Jewish Tradition.”
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stewstew03
Guest
So, when a plaintiff “prays for relief” in federal court…would you consider that idolatry?
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stewstew03
Guest
You can’t be serious… think of the possibilities:
- “My bible has more books; therefore, I am more biblically literate.”
- “My church is bigger; therefore, we love God more.”
- “My pastor is louder and more long-winded; therefore, he speaks more of God’s truth.”
- “My cross is bigger than my neighbor’s; therefore, I love Jesus more than he/she does.”
Let’s pretend you’re an American Christian in the year 1845 and you live in rural Georgia. You just received news that the Baptist church was splitting over the issue of slavery. In other words, southern Christians were so offended by the idea that they were seen as “less Christian” than their northern baptist brethren, that they decided to break up the congregation and form the Southern Baptist Convention. A church… formed based on the idea that one could worship Jesus AND hold black slaves!
Now, what pops into your head in relation to priorities?
(By the way, it wasn’t until 150 years later that the SBC officially apologized for its defense of slavery).
What is a Christian? Are JWs Christians? Are Mormons? (And please cite your authority for being able to make a determination on who is / who is not a Christian).…He is the type of person who truly walks the talk and is an example to anyone claiming to be a Christian. Just my thoughts. I’m now ready for the onslaught from my RC friends.
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Jon_S_1
Guest
For all who are “concerned” about the communion of Saints, please watch this short video.As a fellow Protestant I too have the same issues as you state above. The example for defense rooted in Old Testament Jewish tradition as far as I am concerned doesn’t make me feel warm a fuzzy. While the New Testament is rooted in the Old Testament the new covenant established by Christ’s sacrifice doesn’t mean we follow all the tenants of the law of Moses like circumcision, dietary and other areas of the old covenant. In fact, Paul chastised Peter for requiring Gentiles follow those very same traditions of the old covenant.
The point I am trying to make praying to anyone other to God is not scriptural. Like you said its one thing to hold them with respect and reverence, but completely another to ask them for intercession. Let me illustrate my point in a story. A number of years ago I used to live in a suburban community in the Pittsburgh, PA area. One day when driving through an adjacent neighborhood I noticed a yard with two statues, one of Jesus the other Mary. I was struck by the contrast of the two. The statue of Mary was around 2 foot tall while the one of Jesus was only 12" tall. The first thought that popped into my head was that’s someone who clearly doesn’t have their priorities straight. While Mary is truly blessed among women she cannot intercede for your sins. Sorry but ancient Jewish customs aside it is not scriptural and I will challenge anyone to find biblical reference to back it up.
Finally, the Job example of priestly intercession is the weakest argument of all that has been presented to me in my discussions. First, Job was written before the new convenient and Jesus’ sacrifice as the true mediator between humanity and the Father. In fact, since Job is the oldest book with no known author it could be dated before the great flood as far as we know. The point is intercession was completely different pre New Testament. Blood offering were commonplace usually through a priest.
Does all that mean not to join the RC church - no. In my opinion if there are elements that you do not agree with then don’t practice them. I know a person who is a practicing RC who is very devout, yet he does not agree with praying to saints or some of the other things discussed. I would challenge anyone to try to make a case against him. He is the type of person who truly walks the talk and is an example to anyone claiming to be a Christian. Just my thoughts. I’m now ready for the onslaught from my RC friends.
This is why we ask the Saints to pray with us and for us.
It is a beautiful, effective and powerful way to show the unification of the ENTIRE Body of Christ.
Watch this and tell me Christ is not center or God is not there.
Ordination LitAny of the Saints- youtu.be/NOxMzNLiEEY
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Randy_Carson
Guest
Or maybe the family living in that house simply hadn’t found a larger Jesus statue that fit within their budget.
Let me get this straight…You’re basing your opinion of Catholic spirituality on a drive-by sighting of a statue in some neighborhood in Pittsburgh without actually speaking to the owners to determine exactly why their “priorities” were, in your estimation, all wrong? Then you want to come onto a Catholic forum with rock-solid evidence for your anti-Catholic pre-suppositions like that?
Wow. It’s a pity that a second, better thought didn’t immediately follow the first.
I’m trying hard these days to put forth a kinder, gentler face to my apologetics work, but this is a real test of my patience.
Let me ask you this: I live in the Bible Belt. Wanna know how many Baptists I see with statues of Jesus of any size in their yards? ZERO.
Now, who is making more effort to witness publicly that they are Christians? The Baptist family with no public display or the Catholic family who bought the wrong-sized Jesus?
Sheesh.
And since you’ve got me riled up, let me remind you that you have not responded to my post # 654 in which I undermined your entire premise that everything must be proved by scripture when I demonstrated that your doctrine of sola scriptura is itself unbiblical and therefore, self-refuting.
Further, you have not interacted at all with my post #667 wherein I demonstrated non-Biblical Traditions which you, as a Protestant, accept as binding and which provide further evidence that sola scriptura is false.
Until you can provide us with biblical evidence that the Bible Alone is the basis for testing and approving all things related to our faith, I suggest you back off on the idea.
[/rant]
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stewstew03
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#ImOnTeamRandyCarson
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pablope
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pablope
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dronald
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Why do Protestants nit pick and yet ignore points like this?
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Jon_S_1
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pocohombre
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I acknowledged it only for Catholics(or anyone else who says tradition is equal to Scripture).By your logic Poco you should go get a Catholic bible with all 73 books…for only having 66 books is breaking from the Tradition that you acknowledge above.
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PRmerger
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Partly? Not fully?
How else do you know that the Epistle to the Hebrews is inspired, except through the CC?
What other “part” gives you this assurance?
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PRmerger
Guest
Excellent.
And that makes you not a Sola Scriptura advocate.
Incidentally, did you know that St. Paul preached in the temple for 3 months?
[BIBLEDRB]Acts 19:8[/BIBLEDRB]
Do you think it’s possible that everything he preached, for 3 months, was put to papyrus?
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