Stumbling Block for Protestants?

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Mlon said:
I’m sorry Randy but I’m not trying to avoid your posts. In fact, I find it very difficult to keep up with all of them. My intention isn’t to offend, but challenge people. Isn’t that what your are doing in return? Over and over I have been asked to proved evidence. I have done so; however, in all cases when I ask the same it’s not returned. Finally, if you’d like I can discontinue participating if I am offending anyone. I mean that in a most sincere way.
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It seems your purpose here is to instruct us wayward Catholics. Is that about right?
 
Mlon said:
It’s also common in eastern religions to pray to relatives. Should we adopt those practices too? Illustrate biblical evidence that indicates I should pray to a Saint. It doesn’t exist. The worship of saints are something that has crept into the church over time. For example, every Christmas Christians all over the world sign the song “We Three Kings” or “We Three Wisemen” depending on the version. What most people don’t know is this is a myth that has crept in over time. The bible in all gospels do not mention kings or there were three at all. Yet, every manager scene will have three men dressed up in fine garb, like kings, bearing gifts. The worshiping of saints is a example of a traditional myth turning into a religious practice.
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Revelation 5:8

Worthy Is the Lamb

8 Now when He had taken the scroll, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb, each having a harp, and golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints.

how did the elders get these prayers and why are they the ones presenting them to Christ?

Why is incense used which corresponds to the Catholic practice of incense symbolizing prayers to God?

Revelation 8:3

Another angel came and stood at the altar, holding a golden censer; and much incense was given to him, so that he might add it to the prayers of all the saints on the golden altar which was before the throne.

Same questions here.

Also why is there an altar in heaven?

Hebrews 12:22-24

22 But you have come to Mount Zion, to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem. You have come to thousands upon thousands of angels in joyful assembly, 23 to the church of the firstborn, whose names are written in heaven. You have come to God, the Judge of all, to the spirits of the righteous made perfect, 24 to Jesus the mediator of a new covenant, and to the sprinkled blood that speaks a better word than the blood of Abel.

Why or How do we come to these heavenly people?
 
Mlon said:
It’s also common in eastern religions to pray to relatives. Should we adopt those practices too? Illustrate biblical evidence that indicates I should pray to a Saint. It doesn’t exist. The worship of saints are something that has crept into the church over time. For example, every Christmas Christians all over the world sign the song “We Three Kings” or “We Three Wisemen” depending on the version. What most people don’t know is this is a myth that has crept in over time. The bible in all gospels do not mention kings or there were three at all. Yet, every manager scene will have three men dressed up in fine garb, like kings, bearing gifts. The worshiping of saints is a example of a traditional myth turning into a religious practice.
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Nothing in the bible, that I’m aware of, says you should ask another Christian to pray for you. Are you contending that it is prohibited by scripture?
 
Mlon said:
It’s also common in eastern religions to pray to relatives. Should we adopt those practices too?
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That some false religions have adopted a practice is not an indictment of the practice.

It’s also common in eastern religions to assist the poor and needy. Should we not adopt this practice because eastern religions do this?
 
Mlon said:
The worship of saints are something that has crept into the church over time.
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Worship (latria) of anyone other than God is condemned by the Catholic Church
The bible in all gospels do not mention kings or there were three at all. Yet, every manager scene will have three men dressed up in fine garb, like kings, bearing gifts.
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The Bible also never mentions having a steeple on a church–does your church have one?

The Bible also never mentions getting married in a church, in front of a minister–did you do this?

The Bible also never mentions wearing a wedding ring–do you wear one?
The worshiping of saints is a example of a traditional myth turning into a religious practice.
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No Catholic ought to be worshipping any saints.
 
stewstew03 said:
Nothing in the bible, that I’m aware of, says you should ask another Christian to pray for you. Are you contending that it is prohibited by scripture?
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11 Wherefore also we pray always for you, that our God would count you worthy of [this] calling, and fulfil all the good pleasure of [his] goodness, and the work of faith with power:

25 Brethren, pray for us.

1 Finally, brethren, pray for us, that the word of the Lord may have [free] course, and be glorified, even as [it is] with you:

Both verses found in 1st and 2nd Thessalonians
 
Mlon said:
11 Wherefore also we pray always for you, that our God would count you worthy of [this] calling, and fulfil all the good pleasure of [his] goodness, and the work of faith with power:

25 Brethren, pray for us.

1 Finally, brethren, pray for us, that the word of the Lord may have [free] course, and be glorified, even as [it is] with you:

Both verses found in 1st and 2nd Thessalonians
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Well there’s your scriptural support. I pray that all my brothers and sisters in Christ, in Heaven and on earth, pray for you Mlon…
 
Mlon said:
llustrate biblical evidence that indicates I should pray to a Saint. It doesn’t exist.
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THIRD REQUEST

You that you have not responded to my post # 654 in which I undermined your entire premise that everything must be proved by scripture when I demonstrated that your doctrine of sola scriptura is itself unbiblical and therefore, self-refuting.

Further, you have not interacted at all with my post #667 wherein I demonstrated non-Biblical Traditions which you, as a Protestant, accept as binding and which provide further evidence that sola scriptura is false.

Until you can provide us with biblical evidence that the Bible Alone is the basis for testing and approving all things related to our faith, it is unreasonable for you to insist that evidence for our faith must be drawn from the Bible only.
 
=PRmerger;11305121]That is the current Lutheran definition of SS.
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And the historic definition, too.
But it is not how most SS advocates here on the CAFs would articulate their definition of SS.
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Yeah, I know. They’re wrong. 🙂
And, since you are essentially more Catholic than almost every Catholic I know in real life (although not as Catholic as almost all my Catholic friends here on the CAFs ;)) I don’t think you count as an advocate of SS. 😛
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:rotfl:

PR, this is the first time my defense of SS has been refuted on the grounds that I am too Catholic. I am rendered speechless. :rotfl:

Jon
 
stewstew03 said:
Poco - what is your foundation for determining Truth if it is not the Church?
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No, the “Church” is in the mix as I have posted. What was Peter 's foundation for his famous confession of whom Jesus is ?
 
JonNC said:
PR, this is the first time my defense of SS has been refuted on the grounds that I am too Catholic. I am rendered speechless. :rotfl:

Jon
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So much for your “invincible ignorance” defense. 😛
 
stewstew03 said:
Let’s pretend you’re an American Christian in the year 1845 and you live in rural Georgia. You just received news that the Baptist church was splitting over the issue of slavery. In other words, southern Christians were so offended by the idea that they were seen as “less Christian” than their northern baptist brethren, that they decided to break up the congregation and form the Southern Baptist Convention. A church… formed based on the idea that one could worship Jesus AND hold black slaves!
Now, what pops into your head in relation to priorities?
(By the way, it wasn’t until 150 years later that the SBC officially apologized for its defense of slavery).
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Not sure but didn’t CC flip flop on the slavery issue ?
 
Jon_S said:
Revelation 5:8

Worthy Is the Lamb

8 Now when He had taken the scroll, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb, each having a harp, and golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints.

how did the elders get these prayers and why are they the ones presenting them to Christ?

Why is incense used which corresponds to the Catholic practice of incense symbolizing prayers to God?

Revelation 8:3

Another angel came and stood at the altar, holding a golden censer; and much incense was given to him, so that he might add it to the prayers of all the saints on the golden altar which was before the throne.

Same questions here.

Also why is there an altar in heaven?

Hebrews 12:22-24

22 But you have come to Mount Zion, to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem. You have come to thousands upon thousands of angels in joyful assembly, 23 to the church of the firstborn, whose names are written in heaven. You have come to God, the Judge of all, to the spirits of the righteous made perfect, 24 to Jesus the mediator of a new covenant, and to the sprinkled blood that speaks a better word than the blood of Abel.

Why or How do we come to these heavenly people?
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Again Jon if I may, you have not shown a scripture where we pray to a saint, or angels or those elders in heaven. That they have them (prayers in vials), even know of them and even present them to God does not mean they were directed to them. I am pretty sure prayers in biblical context are always directed to the Godhead.
 
pocohombre said:
Not sure but didn’t CC flip flop on the slavery issue ?
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Parts, I’m sure. Look at the Popes who quite happily carved up the New World between the Crowns of Castile and Portugal. That said, we all have skeletons in closets. Both the Pentateuch and St. Paul argue for the good treatment of slaves, without directly challenging the institution of slavery itself.

Obviously, Scripture is not wrong in recommending the good treatment of slaves, and we should note the role it plays in abolitionism (being in the UK I know primarily of Wilberforce, etc., but I imagine that the process was the same - later! - in the States), but neither does it provide a quick-fix in terms of instantly providing utopian guidance for how we should all believe. Scripture is a yardstick; it is not a Sharia-Law style programme of divinely sanctioned social policy.
 
pocohombre said:
Again Jon if I may, you have not shown a scripture where we pray to a saint, or angels or those elders in heaven. That they have them(prayers in vials), even know of them and even present them to God does not mean they were directed to them. I am pretty sure prayers in biblical context are always directed to the Godhead.
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Yes I agree prayers are ALWAYS directed to God. That is Catholic teaching.

You just believe people in heaven are incapable of praying alongside you .

That someone made holy in Gods throne room cannot possibly pray for you.

That angels who have communicated with us on numerous occasions are incapable of praying for you.

You believe the dead are dead. I believe they live eternally and being in Gods presence can do amazing things for us as the verses (especially Hebrews) describe.
 
pocohombre said:
I am pretty sure prayers in biblical context are always directed to the Godhead.
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Not always.

“Bless the Lord, O you his angels, you mighty ones who do his word, hearkening to the voice of his word! Bless the Lord, all his hosts, his ministers that do his will!” (Ps. 103:20-21).
 
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