Submission as a wife

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LisaLisa - it seems obvious from your remarks that you are not a Christian. You need to submit to the authority of Jesus Christ and repent of your sin.

If you are a Christian, then you are living in disobedience to God’s “rules”.

Are you a Christian? Are you a practicing Catholic? Does your priest know about your unsubmissive attitude?
Wow, another poster who has a crystal ball. How do you know Lisa is not a Christian? How do YOU know she is in need of repentance…because YOU said so.

So what if her priest knows? It’s none of his business. What’s going to do to her, hang her up with thumbscrews?

You can’t be serious.
 
I’m sorry but I don’t know anyone who follows your beliefs with being submissive. Actually, I only know one and her relationship is an abusive one. Tell you what, I will print out this thread and show it to my priest. Then I will let you know what he said.
I am a woman. I am married (have been for 7 years). I am SUBMISSIVE to my husband. We are Catholics. No, I am not abused by him…I love him and he loves me.

** When he is acting towards me as Christ does towards His Church, I have no problem submitting to his authority.**

The big issue is authority. Most people (myself included) get all ruffled by the term. It invokes visions of losing one’s own personality and never speaking your mind. HA! Ask my husband if I speak my mind;) .

The point is, that when it comes down to making a decision, if we disagree and neither one of us is morally wrong, I will choose to submit to his authority as the head of the household. But only after we have a nice long talk about why each of us holds the opinion that we do.

We, as Catholic wives, are called to submit to our husbands. I respect the Catholic faith and it has changed my life for the better (I am a convert). But please understand, that submit does not mean to be bullied or be lorded over by our husbands. Our husbands are called to love us as Christ loves His Church.

I actually feel that the husbands have the raw end of the deal. Think about what they have to live up to!!! They must be super patient, understanding, and forgiving. When we are called to be submissive, all we have to do is obey (if the husband is acting with love). Us women have it easy!


Malia
 
i am sorry… i didnt want this discussion to turn so heated…

i attended some marriage counselling to help me understand what i did wrong in my marriage and one of the things that has always troubled me is this point of submission… although i was completely submissive about the barcalounger and about telling your husband that you were going out with ur friends and making sure that he was ok with it… i was wondering about when his ways are a sure fire way to bring you to ruin, is that the time also to submit?

he was a spendthrift and had i given my finances into his hands he would have spend it all on materialistic stuff instead of something concrete like a house or something…
Then in this case, if he is spendthrift, you should take over the finances. Perhaps a financial counselor is in order vs. a marriage counselor. Perhaps if your husband is “shown” that when he spends money without consequence, what the result is. Is the marriage counselor blaming all this on your lack of submission, while leaving him in the clear? If so, change marriage counselors.
 
Then in this case, if he is spendthrift, you should take over the finances. Perhaps a financial counselor is in order vs. a marriage counselor. Perhaps if your husband is “shown” that when he spends money without consequence, what the result is. Is the marriage counselor blaming all this on your lack of submission, while leaving him in the clear? If so, change marriage counselors.
Oh no… this is all hindsight… I am currently going through a divorce and trying to understand what went wrong… one thing that he blamed me all the time for was lack of submission which i could not understand… when the marriage broke down and we were talking to the elders of the church, they told me later on that the primary reason was money as far as they could see and the only thing that I did was that i did not give him free rein to spend the money as he saw fit as i saw that all his money was going towards parties and friends and good living…
 
the only thing that I did was that i did not give him free rein to spend the money as he saw fit as i saw that all his money was going towards parties and friends and good living…
you didn’t do anything wrong! Being submissive does not require you to watch your family fall into financial ruin. You must only submit to the loving and moral “demands” (for lack of a better word) of your husband. You were totally right not to submit to his selfishness!

** I am so sorry that you are going through a divorce. But I think you are doing great by really looking at what went wrong and your responsiblity in it all. It will help you grow as a person.**

Malia
 
Oh no… this is all hindsight… I am currently going through a divorce and trying to understand what went wrong… one thing that he blamed me all the time for was lack of submission which i could not understand… when the marriage broke down and we were talking to the elders of the church, they told me later on that the primary reason was money as far as they could see and the only thing that I did was that i did not give him free rein to spend the money as he saw fit as i saw that all his money was going towards parties and friends and good living…
Sorry to hear about the divorce Mariam. Looks to me like you saw that the bills got paid, and that wasn’t up there on his “to do” list. You can only “party” so much, then reality sets in and taking care of living expenses jumps to the forefront. I don’t find it difficult to believe that the elders (no, let me guess, all male) suggested you give him free reign of the money. If it was to teach “him” a lesson…it would be at the expense of you and your marriage. Not a good lesson. Do you work outside the home? Hate to ask, but there is a reason. If you work outside the home, alot of couples have 2 separate accounts. So if he spends all his money, you will have at least enough to eat. A woman’s independence begins with her own money. Doesn’t matter if he makes more than you…you have a skill or vocation that you can fall back on.

My heart goes out to the girls who married right out of high school with no skills, no career, and end up totally “dependent” on their husbands. Submission takes on a new meaning. With all the lay offs going on, it would be beneficial if a woman had a job, to help carry the load. Marriage is a partnership/tag team effort.
 
actually, it was kind of a blessing that we had separate bills to pay and since i saw that he was living with no care for tomorrow, i just let it continue that way but that led to the complete deterioration of the marriage… the way i thought was that the pressure to at least pay his own bills would prevent him from going overboard with everything as he would only have so much to spend…
the elders of the church did not blame me for anything… infact they were totally supportive and tried their level best to change his mind… as far as i can remember it was the ladies who expected me to completely submissive… go figure… 😦
i do work outside the home and that is what is sustaining me right now… though when i think back i feel that if i had not worked outside the home, we would not have had this issue to begin with. 😦 and this money is not helping me now when i am alone at home during xmas thinking about my marriage which is now lost…
just trying to understand what was wrong and what i did wrong so that i can understand my mistakes and move on with a better understanding of what God wants of me as a wife.
 
I am a woman. I am married (have been for 7 years). I am SUBMISSIVE to my husband. We are Catholics. No, I am not abused by him…I love him and he loves me.

When he is acting towards me as Christ does towards His Church, I have no problem submitting to his authority.

The big issue is authority. Most people (myself included) get all ruffled by the term. It invokes visions of losing one’s own personality and never speaking your mind. HA! Ask my husband if I speak my mind;) .

The point is, that when it comes down to making a decision, if we disagree and neither one of us is morally wrong, I will choose to submit to his authority as the head of the household. But only after we have a nice long talk about why each of us holds the opinion that we do.

We, as Catholic wives, are called to submit to our husbands. I respect the Catholic faith and it has changed my life for the better (I am a convert). But please understand, that submit does not mean to be bullied or be lorded over by our husbands. Our husbands are called to love us as Christ loves His Church.

I actually feel that the husbands have the raw end of the deal. Think about what they have to live up to!!! They must be super patient, understanding, and forgiving. When we are called to be submissive, all we have to do is obey (if the husband is acting with love). Us women have it easy!

Malia
Malia - you are the only sensible one in this entire thread (the OP not included). The rest of them just don’t have a clue do they. 😦

~Liza
 
Submission as a Christian bride is, essentially, what each and every one of us have to practice every day of our lives; we are part of the Church, which is the Bride of Christ. Jesus Christ is the Bridegroom, and we are the Bride.

He is the ultimate Masculine to which we are all, essentially, feminine.

Now, for those of you girls who don’t like that - tough. God made them male and female. He saw that it was not good for man to be alone. He made marriage and He made it a Sacrament of the Church. It is a holy and pious act to be married and to live that out.

What are we told about marriage? Wives - obey your husband as you would obey Christ. Husbands - love your wife as Christ loved the Church.

Quit moaning your problems to me, ladies 🙂 We have the harder job - you have to do what we are ALL (male AND female) called to do; obey a loving spouse. I have to obey Christ AND I have to love my wife as Christ loved and loves the Church.

Now, does that mean women should stay home barefoot and pregnant? Does that mean women should not have a vote, or a say, or be allowed to hold a job, or be allowed to own property?

Of course not - women are not chattels, they are not slaves. They are human beings, with equal rights to men.

Are they the same as men? Absolutely not - they are feminine are we are masculine.

Is the feminine lesser than the masculine? In certain respects, yes. In other respects, no. In many respects, the masculine is less than the feminine.

We are complementary genders - only in a marriage does the human being find perfection. “It is not good for man to be alone”.

The Church has, since the earliest days, taught that women are respected and valuable. Pick up a Bible and actually read it, rather than looking at it with Germaine Greer’s glasses and thinking that because Paul demands submission of wives. Consider that the mother of God - the Queen of Heaven - is female. That is not the action of a Church or a God who hates or denegrates women.

To whom did Christ appear first? Who stayed with Christ when everyone else ran?

Wake up, girls! 🙂 You are respected and loved and admired and nigh-on-worshipped by the Church for what you actually are. You are not men, you are women. You have your own set of strengths and weaknesses, quite different from ours.

My marriage calls me to love my wife as Christ loved the Church - which means that I have to die for her even when she might be ungrateful. I have to do what is best for her even when the world (and even she) might hate me for it.

The examples given above about the stuffed moose heads and so forth - do I really need to address these? A man who acts like that is not acting in a manner which suggests he loves his wife as Christ loved the Church. He is acting like a jerk, which isn’t how Christ loved the Church. Christ did EVERYTHING for the Church, and demanded EVERYTHING in return.

What will marriage cost you, male or female? Every last little thing you have, your blood, your soul, your life. I would burn in Hell for all eternity to stop Liza from crying for a single second - but I would also stand there and tell her she is wrong if she is.

That is love. Love is not 50/50 - love is 100/100, and if you could give more you would be required to.

Just as a matter of interest, I hate feminism. I don’t hate what it SHOULD have been, but I hate what it has become. It has become - instead of a glorification of the feminine (of sisters, wives, mothers and daughters) - a glorification of the masculine. Women starve and pinch and preen themselves in order to make themselves sexually attractive, and yet contracept and abort their children. They say that they will not submit to a single man, yet they submit to any man who happens to wander by and cast his eyes over them (even if the girl doesn’t immediately fall into bed, just who is she looking pretty for if she is unmarried and uninterested in joining herself to a man as a bride? Herself? Nope - doesn’t hold water. She’s trying to impress somone - and it ain’t her.)

The one thing which women can do which men absolutely cannot is bear children. There are many things which men do better and which women do better, but the only uniquely female thing is childbearing.

So why are so few feminists married or mothers? Why are so many of them obsessed with the idea of remaining free and single - and denying their very feminity?

I hate feminism - it has poisoned a generation or more of women with its Satanic lies. And if you are getting all huffy and uppity here, rather than agreeing with me, too bad. Call me a mysogonist, a chavanist. Call me worse - I’ve been called worse.

I love women - I married one. I praise one daily as the brightest and best creation that God ever made. I honor them and my heart bleeds when I see what has been done to the gender.

(TBC . . .)
 
(continued . . .)

The problem here is the term “submission” - modern people don’t like that idea. This was behind the Reformation, the Enlightenment - it was this idea of “I’ll do it my way” that lead to the Fall of the Angels and the eating of the Fruit in the Garden. It lead to all the problems of humanity - we said “My Will Be Done!” to God.

Marriage and Christian life demand submission. The life of every Christian demands submission to Christ.

Christian Bridehood demands submission to her husband. Christian Husbandship demands that he love her as Christ loved the Church.

Christ’s will in Gethsemane was that He need not suffer, but He submitted Himself to the will of the Father. That was love. That is what I am called to be.

Do I submit to my wife? Absolutely never. Are there times when we disagree and we decide to do what she suggests? Absolutely yes.

Why? Because I’m not Christ, ladies - I’m not that good. I try, and I try very hard, because I understand the awesome responsibility placed on me by my marriage vows. Sometimes, I fail and she needs to remind me of how to love as Christ loved. And I repent, recant and I move on. I improve. I become more Christlike through my marriage.

And so does she, because she submits. What did Christ say about servant leadership?

Ciao,

d’Iago

PS. If you are a lady, and are reading the above and thinking “How dare he just say ‘ladies’ all the time and imply we all think like this - I am a good Christian bride, or would be one!” please accept my apologies; refering to a whole gender is simply a rhetorical device. It is exageration for effect. If you are a Christian bride, or would be, then my remarks were not directed at you.

If you are, however, a lady and are offended by my words because you disagree with them, too bad. Please, feel free to challenge them. But, as a poster pointed out before, these are not actually my words - they are the words of Christ, and the Holy Spirit through Paul, and the Church for 2000 years.

PPS. The woman who posted immediately before me is my wife - I ask her to respond to this and see if she agrees.

Pd’I
 
Peterdiago;1757250PPS:
. The woman who posted immediately before me is my wife - I ask her to respond to this and see if she agrees.

Pd’I
If you could see me cheering as I read his post, you would know that I absolutely agree with this 100%. It is in fact one of the main reasons I married him, because we both agree on this.

So - does this all mean that I’m a little push over wifey-poo who has dinner on the table by five while wearing a starched apron, and saying “yes, dear” “no, dear” at every appropriate time? No - we are actually a very normal married couple. With the grand exception that we try our best to live our marriage as Christ intended. And that is very clearly stated above. Does that mean it’s easy? Christ never said it was easy to follow him. But he did say to do so would ultimately bring us to Heaven. And that is what a husband and wife are meant to do, get each other to Heaven. The way to do that, is to live as my dear one has stated above - to the very best of our ability.

~Liza
 
Finally!

I was beginning to wonder if anyone cared what God had to say about marriage…

Thanks for sharing Peter, Liza, and Malia! There was a lot of truth and wisdom shared there… hopefully women who are struggling with this issue will see how much God loves them, and realize the wonderful purposes He has blessed them with in life.

Merry Christmas! Off to spend time with my family!
 
I am a woman. I am married (have been for 7 years). I am SUBMISSIVE to my husband. We are Catholics. No, I am not abused by him…I love him and he loves me.

** When he is acting towards me as Christ does towards His Church, I have no problem submitting to his authority.**

The big issue is authority. Most people (myself included) get all ruffled by the term. It invokes visions of losing one’s own personality and never speaking your mind. HA! Ask my husband if I speak my mind;) .

The point is, that when it comes down to making a decision, if we disagree and neither one of us is morally wrong, I will choose to submit to his authority as the head of the household. But only after we have a nice long talk about why each of us holds the opinion that we do.

We, as Catholic wives, are called to submit to our husbands. I respect the Catholic faith and it has changed my life for the better (I am a convert). But please understand, that submit does not mean to be bullied or be lorded over by our husbands. Our husbands are called to love us as Christ loves His Church.

I actually feel that the husbands have the raw end of the deal. Think about what they have to live up to!!! They must be super patient, understanding, and forgiving. When we are called to be submissive, all we have to do is obey (if the husband is acting with love). Us women have it easy!


Malia
You have nailed the Biblical, Christian position. My wife would say the same thing and she is no pushover. Her respect for my role as head of our household gives me a confidence I never had when I was single. She is amazing and it makes me strive to be all that she expects me to be. Every man needs respect in the same way that a wife needs love and devotion from her husband. This is the complementarian view and it works.

Those who think men and women have the same role in the home need to ask themselves if mothers and fathers roles in relation to their children are identical? It is the same thing. The role of husband and father cannot be fulfilled by a woman and the role of wife and mother cannot be filled by a man. They are both noble and God ordained. Find me a man that does not have the respect of his wife as head of household and I will find you a demoralized man and a frustrated wife. That’s how it works in the real work.

I say this as a husband of 8 1/2 years and father of 3. My wife is better educated (a lawyer), a homeschooling mother, she balances the books and is way better looking than me. The only time she gets frustrated is when I am indecisive. She will say if we cannot decide on a restaurant or TV show, “Your the man, you decide”. 😃 It is actually a burden sometimes. But it also make me feel like a million bucks. It means she believes in me. Every man needs that. And the converse is true with regard to how a wife and mother is to be treated.

If you want children to grow up to respect the opposite sex, you better believe mutual respect is modelled and that when they do something wrong they fear daddy more than mommy that is why mommies threaten with “Wait till you father get’s home”. A woman who disrespects her husband in front of her children will have wimpy sons who grow up to be wimps and daughters who grow up to have bad relationships with men. The converse is also true.

Model biblical roles to your children and watch them thrive. It is my wife who ensures my manhood and I have the huge burden of ensuring her womanhood. We are meant to complement each other not mirror each other. Otherwise why would one need the other?

complementarian not egalitarian.

Merry Christmas!

Mel
 
Independence can damage a marriage as much as dependence can hurt the individual in the marriage.

Interdependence sounds like the way to go. 👍

Everyone gets all red in the face when hot words are used, such as “submissive” or “obey.”

I wonder if those who are particularly sensitive to submitting or acknowledging that another person is affected by your own actions, was at one time mistreated or hung out to dry by someone they trusted.

It takes a lot of trust and charity, honesty and humility, to acknowledge another person’s wants, needs and point of view. It takes even more to gracefully allow the other person their choice over your own.

That goes for both people in a marriage, not just the woman. Perhaps there was an emphasis in the Bible due to the roles women and men had during that time. In this culture where both sexes are approved to work and/or be the caregiver of children, perhaps who submits to who is flexible depending on the task at hand.
 
I would like to say a few things in regards to the conversation going on but I am afraid it will be misinterpeted.
But here it goes anyway; I have been married for 21 years and have eight beutiful children, all of those years have not been easy, some have been difficult beyond believe and some have been pure joy. There is no doubt that our culture has been engaged in all kinds of strange experiments the last 40 years or so and the Church has also suffered because of this, and the Family most of all has been devestated, people are not sure where they fit in men want to be women, women want to be men or believe if they don’t something is wrong with them.
There IS a right and a wrong order of things in the universe and when the Natural law is repeatedly violated we do harm to ourselves and others. Yes wifes are to submit to their husbands, Husbands are to love their wifes as Christ loves the Church. It is nutty to think your wife needs to ask before going out to lunch or anything else common respect for each other is a good thing though. I am not my wifes Dad, I have nver told her you can’t do this or that, but I am married to a women that believes I am the head of the Family, just like we need to have a Bishop a pope a Judge an Employer and on and on it goes. In a family their needs to be a final say at times and my wife respects that, so it is incumbet upon me to make sure the children
learn their Faith, respect their Mother etc. Unfortunatly this only works when both people have a common believe and purpose in life. I could go on and I am sure you could find a way to pck this apart if you wish but I can say we do have true joy in are life, are we happy all the time no, do we ever argue yes.
God bless matt
 
One of the paradoxs of the faith is that those who are higher are lower. The slave is the master and the master is the slave. While so to say the chain of authority is father - mother - child, the one who has the most control is the child - mother - father. The one placed with the biggest burden is father - mother - child. Aurthority is not meant to be lorded over another, it is meant to secure, help, and nurture.

For the OP my prayers to you. This has got to be hard, but you are still loved. I’m glad to hear you are trying to figure out what went wrong, I’m sure it’ll help you grow.

Oh one more thing about asking permission before going somewhere. If you have children, I hope you have some idea of what the other is doing and what the care of the children are. If you get tired of checking in with the spouse, I’m sure you’ll be even more tired of the police and CPS if the children are left alone. And you thought your parents were bad!
 
Wow, another poster who has a crystal ball. How do you know Lisa is not a Christian? How do YOU know she is in need of repentance…because YOU said so.

So what if her priest knows? It’s none of his business. What’s going to do to her, hang her up with thumbscrews?

You can’t be serious.
You have an amazing lack of respect or the church. And how is te way Paul put on his pants is irrelevant? He probably didn’t even have pants. :rolleyes:

Like I said to ou in another thread, it’s not the pants that matters, it’s the charism of the Holy Spirit.

Kendy
 
One of the paradoxs of the faith is that those who are higher are lower. The slave is the master and the master is the slave. While so to say the chain of authority is father - mother - child, the one who has the most control is the child - mother - father. The one placed with the biggest burden is father - mother - child. Aurthority is not meant to be lorded over another, it is meant to secure, help, and nurture.
I love this part!!! God bless you… I wish my husband had this perspective.
I hope someone explains it to him so that he will know and understand this if not for me then for the future relationships.
 
We need to remember that the roles we hold in society and the submissiveness to God and our husbands is not optional.

God Bless us all in our daily walk with God.
catholicplanet.com/women/roles.htm
God-given Roles for Men and Women
Society and culture has a profound effect on all of us. We live our entire lives immersed in our society and culture. We eat, drink, breathe, and sleep our culture. When our culture teaches something incorrect, and teaches it constantly and thoroughly, it is difficult for us to even consider a different idea. When our culture teaches something incorrect, and we stumble across the truth, the truth will seem foreign and awkward to us. The truth will not “feel right,” whenever the truth contradicts the culture in which we are immersed. That is why many Catholics have rejected certain teachings of the Church – because those teachings contradict the teachings of the society and culture around us.

Our society and culture teaches that men and women should have much the same roles in their lives. Modern secular culture treats men and women as if they were meant to be interchangeable parts in society. Men and women are given nearly the same roles in our society today. There are even laws making it illegal to give certain jobs only to men. Women have become political leaders, religious leaders, heads of corporations and other organizations, even soldiers and law enforcement officers. Such is the teaching of our culture. But it is not the teaching of Christ.

**
"Wives, be submissive to your husbands, as to the Lord. For the husband is the head of the wife as Christ is the head of the church, his body, and is himself its Savior." (Ephesians 5:22)
**

Here again is a Scripture passage often rejected or misinterpreted because of the influence of secular society. The teaching of Christ is that the husband is the head of the family. The wife is the heart of the family. The husband has authority over the family and over his wife. This is not the worldly authority of giving orders and dominating someone. Rather, it is an image of the loving authority of Christ over His Church.

"Wives, be obedient to your husbands, as is fitting in the Lord. Husbands, love your wives, and do not be harsh with them." (Colossians 3:18)

This passage is often rejected by Christians, because they are following the ideas of their culture rather than the ideas of Christ. Women sometimes say that marriage is a “50-50 partnership,” but such is not the teaching of Christ. A woman who seeks power over her husband, who fights with him for control of the family, will ruin her marriage and her family. A wife sins against God if she rejects her husband’s authority over her or if she seeks to have authority over him.
 
Dear Mariam,

I recently went through something similar – leaving my husband of over 20 years because of the financial ruin he propagated throughout our marriage.

Dr. Laura Schlessinger talks about the three A’s, any of which is an impediment to a functional marriage – and those are adultery, addiction, and abuse. While financial irresponsibility is not physical abuse, it is a form of abuse if one spouse continually misuses the financial resources of a marriage. Having separate accounts did not work for my husband and me, nor did me controlling the money, nor did me “submitting” and allowing him to control the money. At the time I left, my husband had over $50,000 in credit card debts (that I knew about), and that was after we had refinanced our house several times over the years to pay off similar amounts.

You did nothing wrong, Mariam. Your willingness to submit is admirable, but both spouses in a marriage need to follow Paul’s directive for it to work according to God’s plan. You did your part, or at least tried. Women are not called to turn a blind eye to their husbands’ sins. That’s not submission – that’s foolishness. Maybe someday your husband will change, but it’s not in your power to change him. Times have changed since Paul spoke to men and women so many years ago – women now have options and being a woman today includes the obligation of protecting ourselves and our children.

Peace and joy!
Tricia Frances
 
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