Submission or Obedience?

[rikkk1958]

Muslim’s basic concept of Islam is Submission. Upon learning Islamic teachings, I contemplated about what Submission really has to do with a person. Christian believes that God created Man without knowledge in the beginning which means he is only a subject for submission to his creator. However, he acted like a robot when they were tempted by the serpent and disobeyed God. If they had knowledge prior to eating the forbidden fruit, could they have avoided it? God’s plan is His alone and the mystery of that, Man will never know.
So after eating the fruit of knowledge to know good and bad, they were aware of themselves. The first sin of the Man to disobey God was caused not by knowledge but by temptation. Upon setting in of knowledge, Man was already in sin, so Man carried the sin, and with knowledge and sin, Man knew what is good and bad so that whatever he does, his power to choose is his alone.
The “free will” of Man is due to the knowledge that he possessed. Submission to God is now a matter of choice.
With the progression of man’s intellect, the world changed. Sin is becoming more powerful and can easily be taken by Man. Men became sinful, so God showed them His power and glory from generation to generation until Prophets came one by one to make their own prophesies, or reveal the Word of God, to know what God wants. Laws were written down to guide the generation of Men in that time who possessed knowledge that is only known to them. The word “Obedience” was used to follow the law. Even Abraham used the word obedience when he justified his faith to God. What then the real difference of “Submission” and Obedience"?
Muslims wants Men to submit to God. Is this command a compulsory? If we ask God, What do you think His answer would be?

 

[ralphinal]

I am not sure what you are saying here.

I would say that I obey because it is the right thing to do and I love God. A person submits out of fear.

God wants us to love him, not fear his wrath.

 

[rikkk1958]

I am not sure what you are saying here.

I would say that I obey because it is the right thing to do and I love God. A person submits out of fear.

God wants us to love him, not fear his wrath.

I was in a rush when I wrote this thread and never edited it. Sorry. What I mean here is, the concept of “submission” as a tool to guide man to be good. But I always interpret “submission” to totally in obedience to God’s command which is impossible because of the nature of man who may not be able to totally control his emotions and desires. Muslims are very proud of this word. It seems that this word guides them to perfection. That is why I always contemplated with it if it really is a good “dogma” for getting closer to God. Or is it a wrong way to ask man to get closer to God. The concept is good but. . .I don’t know. Perhaps we could rationalize more. We know that they want to be perfect with God to the extent of not change in modernity and it puzzles me because I think it is a good thing but hypocritical to be sinless.

 

[ralphinal]

I was in a rush when I wrote this thread and never edited it. Sorry. What I mean here is, the concept of “submission” as a tool to guide man to be good. But I always interpret “submission” to totally in obedience to God’s command which is impossible because of the nature of man who may not be able to totally control his emotions and desires. Muslims are very proud of this word. It seems that this word guides them to perfection. That is why I always contemplated with it if it really is a good “dogma” for getting closer to God. Or is it a wrong way to ask man to get closer to God. The concept is good but. . .I don’t know. Perhaps we could rationalize more. We know that they want to be perfect with God to the extent of not change in modernity and it puzzles me because I think it is a good thing but hypocritical to be sinless.

thanks. I understand better.

Man cannot be perfect. Man cannot follow God perfectly. However, our motives are important. Do we follow God because we love him or because we are afraid of him? Do we want heaven or fear hell?

 

[rikkk1958]

thanks. I understand better.

Man cannot be perfect. Man cannot follow God perfectly. However, our motives are important. Do we follow God because we love him or because we are afraid of him? Do we want heaven or fear hell?

Perhaps Muslims do not understand what original sin is all about and the knowledge man got because of disobedience. Is there repentance on their part? They think their whole motive to submit could make them perfect and that is through the writings of Mohammed that they they will get grace from God. I think obedience is more sound to rationalize as to follow God’s command, attaining grace by submission that cannot be perfected is in my opinion is hypocritical and may not please God.

 

[rikkk1958]

thanks. I understand better.

Man cannot be perfect. Man cannot follow God perfectly. However, our motives are important. Do we follow God because we love him or because we are afraid of him? Do we want heaven or fear hell?

I got your point on love and fear. I don’t know if you mean; “to submit” is like a command and it creates fear, therefore man has no choice. This is a good point. Submission then must be a choice for man to love God not fear. If God wants you to submit to Him, it is because you choose to love Him. But, can you based your intention to love God by way of the principle on the concept "submission’? Or, is it just better to obey God’s Word without the concept of submission. To submit means giving yourself. If this is what Muslims wants then they can no longer express their free will because it is impossible for a man to do. Therefore, even though the word “submission” may sound good, I don’t think it is a rational way of getting close to God. Obedience is therefore the best way to please God. Thanks.

 

[ralphinal]

I got your point on love and fear. I don’t know if you mean; “to submit” is like a command and it creates fear, therefore man has no choice. This is a good point. Submission then must be a choice for man to love God not fear. If God wants you to submit to Him, it is because you choose to love Him. But, can you based your intention to love God by way of the principle on the concept "submission’? Or, is it just better to obey God’s Word without the concept of submission. To submit means giving yourself. If this is what Muslims wants then they can no longer express their free will because it is impossible for a man to do. Therefore, even though the word “submission” may sound good, I don’t think it is a rational way of getting close to God. Obedience is therefore the best way to please God. Thanks.

I agree 100%. You are also correct that it is foolish to think that anyone can serve God perfectly.

 

[Sister_Amy]

The word Islam means submission–willful surrender, and obedience. It isn’t something that can be forced, or coerced, the obedience.

While it’s true that some people are motivated more by fear than love, the principles of Islam tend more in the direction that if a person loves God, has gratitude for the blessings which God has bestowed on Him, then He will want to submit to God, or at least demonstrate his love/gratitude.

And how does a person show his love for God? How can a person really thank God?

Of course, the answer is by worshiping God.

So a Muslim obeys God out of love. That is the primary motivation to submit to God and obey God, the head of a bird. A bird has two wings to keep it balanced, however, a wing of hope, and a wing of fear. So while the Muslim acts based on love, he has also a hope in earning God’s pleasure–a reason to do extra things to please God, and also a fear of earning God’s wrath–a reason to abstain from things which God hates.

Fear is a powerful motivator, but in Islam… if fear was the primary factor, why would the Qur’an spend so much time describing God as being Loving, Merciful, and Forgiving? And indeed, these are some of the most frequently mentioned attributes of God, in the Qur’an.

 

[ralphinal]

The word Islam means submission–willful surrender, and obedience. It isn’t something that can be forced, or coerced, the obedience.

While it’s true that some people are motivated more by fear than love, the principles of Islam tend more in the direction that if a person loves God, has gratitude for the blessings which God has bestowed on Him, then He will want to submit to God, or at least demonstrate his love/gratitude.

And how does a person show his love for God? How can a person really thank God?

Of course, the answer is by worshiping God.

So a Muslim obeys God out of love. That is the primary motivation to submit to God and obey God, the head of a bird. A bird has two wings to keep it balanced, however, a wing of hope, and a wing of fear. So while the Muslim acts based on love, he has also a hope in earning God’s pleasure–a reason to do extra things to please God, and also a fear of earning God’s wrath–a reason to abstain from things which God hates.

Fear is a powerful motivator, but in Islam… if fear was the primary factor, why would the Qur’an spend so much time describing God as being Loving, Merciful, and Forgiving? And indeed, these are some of the most frequently mentioned attributes of God, in the Qur’an.

Interesting and insightful post. Although, why did you totally ignore the Slave/Master relationship that Muslims have with Allah?

Does a slave ever love his master? Does a master ever really love a slave?

 

[Sister_Amy]

Interesting and insightful post. Although, why did you totally ignore the Slave/Master relationship that Muslims have with Allah?

Does a slave ever love his master? Does a master ever really love a slave?

When humanity has encountered slavery, it is the oppression of one by his equal. For aren’t human created equal? People are not born into human slavery, they are born with dignity, and if enslaved then they are demeaned and forced into a position below their dignity. It is oppression, and oppression does not engender love.

But humans are not the equal of Allah, nor are we oppressed by Allah. And yet, there is dignity in being a slave to the Almighty Allah. And so worshiping God is honorable.

But at any rate, the question was about submission and obedience, not servitude. And when I read the Qur’an, I see a Merciful Lord, and so I strive to be a grateful servant. My Lord provides sustenance for me–food, and shelter, all my needs. My Lord protects me from evil in the world, from harm. I obey God willingly, because I have the will to choose.

 

[rikkk1958]

Interesting and insightful post. Although, why did you totally ignore the Slave/Master relationship that Muslims have with Allah?

Does a slave ever love his master? Does a master ever really love a slave?

Good post Ralp. May I add, that now I see an addition to “submission” and that is “willful surrender” with obedience. Ah, if only every Muslim knows this they may think twice committing Jihad. But the rationale of this is, it still of the same characteristics of the “submission” we are talking about. It is, the way I understand still “to submit”. Let us take the other way, “not to submit”, because Sister Amy said that it is a willful surrender, the notion of not to submit means not giving oneself to God, which means then you are not with God. Did I get it right?

 

[ralphinal]

When humanity has encountered slavery, it is the oppression of one by his equal. For aren’t human created equal? People are not born into human slavery, they are born with dignity, and if enslaved then they are demeaned and forced into a position below their dignity. It is oppression, and oppression does not engender love.

But humans are not the equal of Allah, nor are we oppressed by Allah. And yet, there is dignity in being a slave to the Almighty Allah. And so worshiping God is honorable.

But at any rate, the question was about submission and obedience, not servitude. And when I read the Qur’an, I see a Merciful Lord, and so I strive to be a grateful servant. My Lord provides sustenance for me–food, and shelter, all my needs. My Lord protects me from evil in the world, from harm. I obey God willingly, because I have the will to choose.

Ok.

So, would all Muslims agree that Islam teaches that all humanity is created equal? Or that we are all deserving of respect no matter what?

 

[Through_Him]

Muslim’s basic concept of Islam is Submission. Upon learning Islamic teachings, I contemplated about what Submission really has to do with a person. Christian believes that God created Man without knowledge in the beginning which means he is only a subject for submission to his creator. **
But we are suppose to be servants one to another as Christians brothers and sisters in the Lord**
However, he acted like a robot when they were tempted by the serpent and disobeyed God. **I’m not sure how you are going with this but I think Adam was more like a robot before the fall and so they had not a conscience and knowledge as you say **If they had knowledge prior to eating the forbidden fruit, could they have avoided it? **the angels were given a choice and look where that led them some of them, there would not have been any redemption? ** God’s plan is His alone and the mystery of that, Man will never know.
So after eating the fruit of knowledge to know good and bad, they were aware of themselves. **If you give a child a choice of a fruit or cookie what will they choose? even if you tell them how nutricious the fruit is? And how bad the sugar is for them? **The first sin of the Man to disobey God was caused not by knowledge but by temptation. **I tend to agree sin came first and then knowledge ** Upon setting in of knowledge, Man was already in sin, so Man carried the sin, and with knowledge and sin, Man knew what is good and bad so that whatever he does, his power to choose is his alone.We are not really chosing alone if we are in prayer and seeking wisdom
The “free will” of Man is due to the knowledge that he possessed. Submission to God is now a matter of choice.
With the progression of man’s intellect, the world changed. Sin is becoming more powerful and can easily be taken by Man. Men became sinful, so God showed them His power and glory from generation to generation until Prophets came one by one to make their own prophesies, or reveal the Word of God, to know what God wants. Laws were written down to guide the generation of Men in that time who possessed knowledge that is only known to them. The word “Obedience” was used to follow the law. Even Abraham used the word obedience when he justified his faith to God. What then the real difference of “Submission” and Obedience"?
Muslims wants Men to submit to God. Is this command a compulsory? If we ask God, What do you think His answer would be?

Man chose not to submit or obey which we all still struggle with and will for ever till we breath our last breath.

 

[Sister_Amy]

Ok.

So, would all Muslims agree that Islam teaches that all humanity is created equal? Or that we are all deserving of respect no matter what?

Sadly, it’s rare you find “all Muslims” to agree on anything. But I can’t think of any teaching that would contradict either statement.

 

[ralphinal]

Sadly, it’s rare you find “all Muslims” to agree on anything. But I can’t think of any teaching that would contradict either statement.

So, the charges that the tax leveled on non-Muslims should be used to humilite is not accurate?

Aren’t Muslims supposed to be better than non-Muslims, or at least have more rights?

 

[Sister_Amy]

So, the charges that the tax leveled on non-Muslims should be used to humilite is not accurate?

Aren’t Muslims supposed to be better than non-Muslims, or at least have more rights?

To answer the first question, Muslims are taxed first and more. The tax on non-Muslims inside a Muslim state is for a very specific purpose–to ensure their protection. There’s an example of one caliph who, when he was unable to ensure the protection of non-Muslims under his rule, returned their tax monies.

What makes one person “better” than another? In your question, if you say Muslims are supposed to be “better” than non-Muslims, I imagine it is the equivalent of charging you, aren’t Catholics supposed to be better than non-Catholics?

The “rights” which Muslims have over Muslims are actually insignificant in this discussion (i.e., the right that they say “yarhamokallah” when you sneeze or something) because they don’t take away from the dignity of people not afforded those “rights.” Every person, every human being, is granted fundamental human rights in islam. Is there some “right” which you think Islam deprives non-Muslims?

 

[rikkk1958]

To answer the first question, Muslims are taxed first and more. The tax on non-Muslims inside a Muslim state is for a very specific purpose–to ensure their protection. There’s an example of one caliph who, when he was unable to ensure the protection of non-Muslims under his rule, returned their tax monies.

What makes one person “better” than another? In your question, if you say Muslims are supposed to be “better” than non-Muslims, I imagine it is the equivalent of charging you, aren’t Catholics supposed to be better than non-Catholics?

The “rights” which Muslims have over Muslims are actually insignificant in this discussion (i.e., the right that they say “yarhamokallah” when you sneeze or something) because they don’t take away from the dignity of people not afforded those “rights.” Every person, every human being, is granted fundamental human rights in islam. Is there some “right” which you think Islam deprives non-Muslims?

What kind of protection tax are we talking about? Is it for the safety of non-muslims? In what sense and origin that the protection tax imposed? This I think proves that in the Muslim State, non-Muslims are not equal to the Muslims. Which side is Allah then?
Is there really fundamental rights in Islam? Sister Amy, you have the shariah law, do you think you have the fundamental rights under shariah law?
I think you are a civilized person actually intelligent but have you not realized that there is a society where you can freely express your true opinion without fear, worship any faith you wish, and the free will to become righteous or not. I understand what you mean when you compare the life with islam as more submissive that is why I have this thread to fully rationalized the word.
No one will argue with you if people become more godly and submissive so the society might be peaceful but I do not believe a Muslim in a Muslim State have not sinned. Let us not be hypocritical here and be real because I think you also believe that no one is perfect.
Why would I consider Islam when Christianity has more to offer, giving you the whole concept of God in a sensible and humane way?

 

[algebra]

To answer the first question, Muslims are taxed first and more. The tax on non-Muslims inside a Muslim state is for a very specific purpose–to ensure their protection. There’s an example of one caliph who, when he was unable to ensure the protection of non-Muslims under his rule, returned their tax monies.

That is bullsh1t.

The taxes in a muslim state are used for the benefit of islam and muslims.

What is the ruling on supporting poor non-muslims by the state?

Remember that charity is carried out within the precincts of the masjid.

Show me examples of non-muslims receiving charity.
There are none, because it wasnt done.

Simply put non-muslims finance the army and the muslim state.

They were not paying for protection, they were paying and continue paying ‘extortion’ money.

Which caliph gave back the money…where is the proof?

 

[ralphinal]

Everyone please be kind to Sister Amy. She does a great job talking to us and is usually more than kind in her answers.

So, are there rules to this “protection tax?” It sounds a lot like the “protection tax” that my cousin Guido used to charge back in the days of the men wearing the red carnations…

 

[algebra]

The question that must be answered and one that i would pose to Amy is this:

Under what circumstances was the jizya originaly imposed? what event in early islamic history caused it to be imposed?

I might remind you that original treaty of medina did not impose jizya on the jewish tribes living in medina. They were obliged to fight alongside muslims when medina was attacked.

At some point in the future however the option of jizya was given to christian and jewish tribes that lived in muslim controlled areas, so what happened?

What is the quranic support for jizya? (hint sura 9:29)

How are taxes distributed in the islamic system.

Is social support equitable between muslims and non-muslims? Or do muslims receive preference in the distribution of social security?

Amy if you investigate the matter by asking all the questions I have posed, you will eventually have to disagree with the notion of jizya.