Submission or Obedience?

[inJESUS]

No.

But it is seen as an Islamic state.

ok so when was the last Islamic state adhering fully to the sharia as intended to be ?

 

[Sister_Amy]

ok so when was the last Islamic state adhering fully to the sharia as intended to be ?

 

[inJESUS]

you don’t understand my question or you don’t know?

 

[algebra]

Have crosses? Yes. Eat pork? Yes. Drink alcohol? Yes (although there might be a provision like it has to be done in private… I dunno.) Build churches–ABSOLUTELY! Impose different penalties than Islam, sure. The point is that the court system should really (or maybe ideally) be based on Christian law. So consult your own scriptures to determine whether adultery is or isn’t a capital offense, but indeed that is the point of the court system which ought to be established, with judges who are capable of interpreting their own laws.

Amy are you an authority on sharia law? you mentioned you are studying sharia law, and the more to study it the more you love it.

I have noticed in our past discussions that you are very lax on analysis and critical thinking.

None the less, I offer this differing interpretation on the scope of sharia in an islamic state, I would appreciate your comments regarding it.

“The Ordinances of the People of the Covenant and the Minorities in an Islamic State,” Sheikh Najih Ibrahim Ibn Abdullah remarks

“Zimmis (those in custody) are non-Muslim subjects who live in Muslim countries and agree to pay the Jizya (tribute) in exchange for protection and safety, and to be subject to Islamic law. These enjoy a permanent covenant.”

More specifically since sharia extends to criminal, financial and civil matters, do non-muslims get to lend money on interest???

Or even further in a criminal case where the aggrieved party is muslim, what law applies to the perpetrator?

If I kill a muslim man, is he entitled to my life, even if I am a christian?

I only ask this because you claim to be studying sharia, and “love it” more , the more you learn.

It would be a shame ,albeit not surprising, to find that you haven’t been doing your homework once again.

 

[inJESUS]

Some answers depend on which school of thought it followed. If you kill a Muslim, you must be killed according to Hanifite, and vice versa. According to Shafiite, if a Muslim kills an non-Muslim, he doesn’t get killed because you cannot equate both.

 

[rikkk1958]

Sister Amy is a very interesting subject. Her moderation is very much understood if we as Christian sees those who really are serious with believing in God can submit. In the Christian world especially for Catholics, Nuns devout there lives for the Lord and of course Priestly Monks also. The submission of Sister Amy to the religion of Muhammed or to Islam is her willful surrender and obedience to the teachings of the Quran. It is her choice. This is the reason for this thread about submission. According to Sister Amy, if there is a true Islamic State, she can live with it and believes that under Shariah laws everybody can benefit. She also stated her fascination with the Quran alone that is why she strongly believes that Muhammed is really the Prophet of God. She also believes that the Gospels, the rest of the NT and OT are inferior or not complete compared to the Quran. That the Quran is the one that corrects the Holy Bible.

 

[rikkk1958]

So, under pressure from Sister Amy I am going to re-read the Quran again so that I can manifest to myself what really is in the Quran that will make me agree with her assertion that the Quran is written beautifully and completely. I read one chapter last night (chapter 37) and sorry to say to sister Amy that at that juncture, the writings are not even considered a summary taken from the OT because the coherence are not there but fragments of the story. I also read Maryan. This chapter have so many similarities with the NT but some errors in naming some characters and settings. The two chapters I mentioned here showed some proofs of the Truth from the Bible that Muhammed said to be respected especially Jesus. The only thing here is baby Jesus were able to speak from a manger. I will continue to read and my only concern is the different interpretations by three scribes, and the poetic style is not easy to understand.

 

[inJESUS]

If subjective criteria is all that we need to determine the origin of a book, what can we tell Mormons who have very similar belief to Muslims?

If the Quran were miraculous in content and style, everyone would have found the same conclusion on the spot. After all Allah won’t fall short of convincing us if he intended his book to be a miracle. The same applies to the Book of Mormons or the Bahaullah book. So what criteria determines a divine book if millions apply the same to the book of mormons and Bahaullah and find them divine? surely such techniques reflect human wisdom, not God’s as nowhere do we read God giving such subjective criteria to prove His words but we read humans giving such criteria and other humans fall for their words which is submission to men and not to God since submission means submitting to His Word instead of questioning it.

the answer is usually: you read with prejudice.

 

[algebra]

Some answers depend on which school of thought it followed. If you kill a Muslim, you must be killed according to Hanifite, and vice versa. According to Shafiite, if a Muslim kills an non-Muslim, he doesn’t get killed because you cannot equate both.

Scary…that an educated person would subscribe to these archaic beliefs.

 

[Dameedna]

There is probably a difference between the two “words” but I think from a religous concept, it is the same.

Submission is something you do, because you place something in your life to have a higher meaning/importance than yourself. You give in to it. Submission, almost does not feel like a choice in a strange way.

Say for exampe, you submit to Love. You want to watch a video, but your dog needs a walk. You know it’s good for him and will make him very happy and healthy.

You have two conflicing ideas here. I WANT to watch a video, my dog wants a walk. What is the right thing? A person who submits to love, probably takes the dog for a walk. A person who is goverened by nothing other than their own will and desires, will watch the movie. (simple story obviously)

When you submit to love, you give in to it and follow it, even if your own will is fighting against it. In a sense you obey the calling that is love. So it can be seen as obedience or submission.

I believe there is a story in the bible, about the “name” Israel. Meaning, those that have been broken by God. When you are broken, you finally give in and submit to a will, and idea, a concept that is bigger than you.

Everyone is capable of this and often do it regardless of their beliefs.

Cheers

 

[Dameedna]

But then you mentioned burkas. Burkas, man, WTH? Where did you pull that out of Shari’ah? Nothing there on burkas.

I was told that the only mention of anything remotely like this in the Quaran, was that a woman shall behave modestly.

Interestingly enough, there is a quote in the bible, that claims a woman should be veiled.

It is the interpretation of what is modest, that is up for debate. Am I correct in this?

Then you said “not to get educated!” WHAT? According to Islam, it is OBLIGATORY for both MEN AND WOMEN to get educated. Both! Islam encourages women to pursue their education, more than any other religion I’ve ever heard of. Again you’re pulling an ignorant stereotype out of that hat and assuming it’s realistic, when in fact your mistaken assumption is the opposite of the teachings of Islam.

Yes, wasn’t Mohammeds first wife, approximate 15 years older than him and more educated and ended up being a great source of intellectual knowlege and comfort for him?

It is unfortunate, that these stereotypes exist, however I will say one thing on this and that is…it’s difficult to blame people for these views when they see the horror of how some muslims live via the media.

You are very patient.

And then you said “subjected to beating by husbands.” And that’s just crossing the line. If a man abuses his wife in Islam he is committing a very gross sin. Period.

I have read, that mohammed was emphatic about the need to protect children, and women, since he came from a culture that did not. He changed the culture as a result. He did not agree. Cultural heratige often plays a part in this issue, and it’s not really Islam.

I do not claim to know islam, but the more I read about it, the more I realize that our view of Islam, is based on some very bad people and situations, and not on the religion itself.

I’m agnostic now(former athiest), and I have despised christianity for a very long time, because of it’s history, and because of what certain people have done(and are still doing) in the name of that religion.

When I read the attacks on you, I feel ashamed at the attacks I have made on christians. It’s horrible to see. But we cannot judge a religion or make decisions about God, on what humans do can we?

Cheers

 

[rikkk1958]

Submission in my opinion is not the same as Obedience. For Sister Amy, Submission is willful surrender and obedience. If this really is the way Muslims interpret Islam, it can mean that, if one willfully submit, the person will no longer apply all the free will he receives from God and it will be very very difficult because we all know we can not be perfect. We know that we can not be perfect, so the willful concept may contradict, because “willful” and “submission” may not get along together in real sense. Therefore, “submission” can not be used as a guide for a believer. How can it be a guide if man can not fulfill? If God had not given us the knowledge in the beginning, this might be true, so that everyone will just submit to the will of God.
Obedience on the other hand is lesser in value than Submission but more sensible to use as a guide for any believer. Obedience and free will can interact together in perfect sense because your power to choose can play an important role in obeying the will of God and because we are not perfect, our only chance to get grace is to keep trying hard for righteousness.
If you can make an observation on Muslims (exremists), the “submission” concept and some quranic verses will lead a “believer” to perform the “jihad”. We Christians no longer believe in punishments but are trying to obey the greatest commandments Jesus taught us and that is to Love thy God with all thy heart, mind, and might, and to Love thy neighbor as yourself. Do these two commandments and the world will be in peace and harmony.

 

[rikkk1958]

Many takes the history of Christianity as violent. No doubt it affected many. This is the reason why knowledge made impact on human nature. Knowledge led to free will. Man become intelligent every passing time so the tendencies of those well learned are to follow their instincts from the knowledge it possessed. Man were already shown the power and glory of God and it was manifested through the progression of knowing God in the OT to the ultimate plan of showing God’s love by way of the coming of the Son of Man.
The only credit I can give to the Muslims are their showing off of their faith. The faith that has the concept of submission but have they asked themselves if they really followed righteousness and not committing sins. Simply asking, are they sinless?

 

[Sister_Amy]

I was told that the only mention of anything remotely like this in the Quaran, was that a woman shall behave modestly.

Interestingly enough, there is a quote in the bible, that claims a woman should be veiled.

It is the interpretation of what is modest, that is up for debate. Am I correct in this?

Hi there… re-reading my words I felt a bit like I over-reacted. A bit too passionate perhaps. I was irritated that Afghanistan was being used as the gold standard for all things Islamic. As much as I love the Afghani people and Afghani culture, I always hope it is clear that the Taliban (a word that means “students”) government enforced some rules which diverge strongly from the principles of Islam. When anyone brings up burkas, for example, I get this impression.

About a woman veiling–the Qur’an essentially instructs believing women to do three things regarding their modesty. Firstly, to lower their gaze. Secondly, to lengthen their headcovers to cover their chests as well (implying that women should already be wearing such headcovers.) And thirdly, the Qur’an tells women to dress in a way which obscures their shape when they go out, wearing a cloak or something of that sort. I’m simplifying a bit, and there is a tremendous amount of debate on this verses, that’s true, but this is the gist of it as I understand it. So women should cover their bodes (including their head, excluding face and hands) in loose material.

While a burka certainly fits the requirement, it’s not fair to say that the requirement is the burka–the burka does more than necessary. Among other things, it also impedes a woman’s ability to interact freely in her society so it’s something for which I personally have some distaste. Imagine trying to go to a store and speak with a salesperson while wearing it. Difficult. But in a society where women are being snagged off the street and raped indiscriminately… different world, different rules.

Yes, wasn’t Mohammeds first wife, approximate 15 years older than him and more educated and ended up being a great source of intellectual knowlege and comfort for him?

That’s right.

It is unfortunate, that these stereotypes exist, however I will say one thing on this and that is…it’s difficult to blame people for these views when they see the horror of how some muslims live via the media.

If I thought the media weren’t complicit in perpetuating these stereotypes…

I have read, that mohammed was emphatic about the need to protect children, and women, since he came from a culture that did not. He changed the culture as a result. He did not agree. Cultural heratige often plays a part in this issue, and it’s not really Islam.

Absolutely true. Islam, as some have described it, is like a clear stream which flows through different lands and will take on the qualities of that land, picking up color and taste from the minerals in the soil. It can go anywhere, in any culture. But there are a few things which need to be kept. But sometimes the Islamic injunctions about protecting women and children were either lost, or exaggerated to the point of contradiction. For example, an extreme in “protecting” a woman’s modesty would be to keep her from ever leaving the house. It becomes so extreme (even with a good intention… maybe) but yet seems to violate that woman’s rights as well–extreme to the point of contradiction. It’s not Islam, in that way, but culture.

I do not claim to know islam, but the more I read about it, the more I realize that our view of Islam, is based on some very bad people and situations, and not on the religion itself.

That certainly seems to be the case.

I’m agnostic now(former athiest), and I have despised christianity for a very long time, because of it’s history, and because of what certain people have done(and are still doing) in the name of that religion.

When I read the attacks on you, I feel ashamed at the attacks I have made on christians. It’s horrible to see. But we cannot judge a religion or make decisions about God, on what humans do can we?

Cheers

Thank you for reminding me to be patient.