Submission Sabotage

[ALLFORHIM]

My husband does not want to be the head of the household either. But you know what that is between them and God. They will have to answer to God for their actions or lack of and the only thing we can do is change our behavior. Im going to go out on a limb and sound radical here, but dont wear a skirt to mass and see how he reacts. It shouldnt matter what you wear anyway. God loves you no matter what. Although my husband is not as nasty about submission I am in the same spot as you. When he tells me to do something in a nasty way, I ask him to speak to me in a nicer way and then I do what it is he told me too. I do set boundaries with him on how I expect him to talk to me. I say to him that I will do what he wants but I would appreciate it if you would ask me nicely. He has been changing allbeit SLOWLY

When I am trying to be submissive and he is verbally attacking me, I walk away and do not engage in an argument. I then go to the computer and talk to God for however long it takes me to calm down and let it go. We usually dont talk the rest of the night, but the next day all is fine. If it were something more serious I would(at a calmer time)approach and talk out the problem.

The only thing is we do have a good marriage so my husband is willing to work things out. It sounds like your husband is not as willing. Keep going to the counselor and keep bringing this up to the counselor.

The most important thing you can do is PRAY PRAY PRAY and then PRAY SOME MORE:thumbsup: Even if your not sure what to pray for that is ok God knows :bowdown:

 

[MamaCarnie]

Thank you, I appreciate your thoughts and advice.

 

[katybird]

Okay. That’s what I was doing, before this whole “submission” (which I hate the term, anyway) thing came up, and it was working. I just struggle so much with being respectful, and am really wanting to change. I just didn’t know how to do it.

Oh! OK… try “The Proper Care and Feeding of Husbands” by Dr. Laura. Her advice isn’t all frilly and silly stuff about being a soft, submissive creature… it’s more for women who tend to nag too much or otherwise haven’t been very kind to their husbands. She’s very no-nonsense and helpful with that.

Tell your husband that the submission stuff is stupid, you don’t want to do it any more, and that you never want to even hear that word again. Wear a skirt to Mass (or whatever you want.) Then, work on doing things for him that he’ll actually appreciate, only don’t draw attention to it. Keep the house clean because he appreciates a clean house, but don’t let him catch you trying to keep it perfect.

The key is: look like you’re doing what you happen to feel like doing. And, what you happen to feel like doing is making your husband feel loved and appreciated.

 

[kage_ar]

Great Catholic marriage advice is available through Exceptional Marriages, at www.avemariaradio.org you should be able to find the link.

Scripture tells us to submit to each other, and compares the relationship to Christ and the Church - this is our model. Each giving 100%.

Another good book is Matthew Kelly “The Seven Levels of Intimacy”.

 

[1ke]

Well first I read How to Change Your Husband. I also read Dressing with Dignity.

I suggest a couple of different books:

For Better… Forever by Greg Popcak (Catholic marriage counselor)

The Five Love Languages

His Needs, Her Needs

The Proper Care and Feeding of Husbands by Dr. Laura

I don’t know about “how to change your husband”, but Dr. Laura basically tells women who treat husbands badly that it is they who need to change.

I think he’s afraid I’m going to become a radical, and is very afraid to let me make any decision that might lead me to this. He says “I’m just as afraid of ultraconservatism, as I am of liberalism.”

I really think you both have the wrong idea of what submission is he thinks it means ordering you around and you think it means doing what he tells you to do.

That is not submission. That is subjugation.

I suggest the Papal Encyclical Casti Connubii of Pope Piux XI. Maybe that will help you guys to understand the role of both husband and wife within the Catholic Sacrament of Marriage.

 

[deb1]

I really think you both have the wrong idea of what submission is he thinks it means ordering you around and you think it means doing what he tells you to do.

That is not submission. That is subjugation.

I suggest the Papal Encyclical Casti Connubii of Pope Piux XI. Maybe that will help you guys to understand the role of both husband and wife within the Catholic Sacrament of Marriage.

I agree. Many Christian couples see submission as the woman loosing all control for her life and allowing the man to basically order her about. This is not what submission is.

It is actually a balanced relationship. The woman shouldn’t nag her husband, but should treat him respectfully. The man should love his wife, be willing to die for her and honor her. If both people follow their roles then neither will feel subjugated or oppressed.

I have to ask a question that will be worded awkwardly. If your husband doesn’t want you to be submissive but you continue to practice submission to him, are you actually being submissive?

My hubby hated the whole submission thing. He grew sarcastic and disrespectful of me and I grew angry and resentful of him. We practice a more balanced relationship-and one that I believe is more biblical now- and it works for us.

 

[Cupofkindness]

Pope John Paul the Great tells us in his encyclicals that in order to achieve full communion in marriage, both partners must consider themselves as equals. And in order to be truly equal, submission must be mutual so that no one spouse has more power or control in the relationship than the other. When love is the foundation and the goal of the marriage, this will work for you. Keep praying and seek the sacraments.

 

[MamaCarnie]

Pope John Paul the Great tells us in his encyclicals that in order to achieve full communion in marriage, both partners must consider themselves as equals. And in order to be truly equal, submission must be mutual so that no one spouse has more power or control in the relationship than the other. When love is the foundation and the goal of the marriage, this will work for you. Keep praying and seek the sacraments.

Can you tell me what you mean by mutual submission? I was just reading in the EWTN Q &A that this isn’t a proper teaching, and that according to scripture the husband does indeed have a certain authority over his wife, but loves her to the point of death.

 

[Cupofkindness]

Can you tell me what you mean by mutual submission? I was just reading in the EWTN Q &A that this isn’t a proper teaching, and that according to scripture the husband does indeed have a certain authority over his wife, but loves her to the point of death.

I read about this in Holly Pierlot’s book called “A Mother’s Rule of Life.” You can get it at Amazon.com and it should reference the encyclical containing Pope John Paul’s words. I’m sorry that I can’t help you any more.

 

[maryceleste]

Pope John Paul the Great tells us in his encyclicals that in order to achieve full communion in marriage, both partners must consider themselves as equals. And in order to be truly equal, submission must be mutual so that no one spouse has more power or control in the relationship than the other.

I don’t think this is what John Paul II meant. :nope: He gives no indication that he intends to contradict the established Catholic teaching on the wife’s submission to her husband, which has been expressed clearly and repeatedly by Sacred Scripture, the Church Fathers, and past popes. For instance, here’s a passage from Pius XI’s great encyclical on marital chastity, Casti Connubii:

Domestic society being confirmed, therefore, by this bond of love, there should flourish in it that “order of love,” as St. Augustine calls it. This order includes both the primacy of the husband with regard to the wife and children, the ready subjection of the wife and her willing obedience, which the Apostle commands in these words: “Let women be subject to their husbands as to the Lord, because the husband is head of the wife, as Christ is the head of the Church."

If a recent papal encyclical, such as Mulieris Dignitatem, appears to contradict 2000 years of Sacred Tradition regarding husband/wife roles, then our first response as Catholics should be, *not *to throw Tradition out the window, but to say, “hmm, maybe people are interpreting this encyclical in the wrong way.” For instance, here’s one example of how Mulieris Dignitatem can be interpreted in a way that’s compatible with the previous teachings of the Church. (I’ve summarized this argument from an article in The Wanderer. It’s necessary to scroll down about 1/4 of the way through the article to get to this material. I haven’t read the rest of the article in depth; it seems to have been written as a response to some traditionalist writers who accused JPII of modernism. )

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1. Human society has certain authority structures which are to be respected. This teaching was already accepted in St. Paul’s time, so he didn’t need to dwell on it.
2. All human beings are called to “subject themselves to one another” out of charity. This is a new teaching of Christ, and was harder for people of St. Paul’s time to accept. *It supplements, but does not replace, the above teaching on authority. *
3. Husband and wife are equal in dignity, but they are not equal in authority. Therefore, their “subjection to one another” takes different forms:

a) The husband subjects himself to his wife by loving her and laying down his life for her.

b) The wife subjects herself to her husband by respecting him and obeying his leadership.

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Makes sense to me.

Regarding the OP’s question, “husbands who won’t lead” seem to be a very common problem, maybe even more widespread than “wives who won’t follow.” In general, American Catholic families have been suffering from a lack of male leadership for generations. I’ve even read books from the 1940’s that talk about it. Because they haven’t had good role models, most men don’t know **how **to head the family. Since it’s such a huge responsibility, and they feel so ill-prepared for it, who can blame them for trying to shift it onto their wives?

Even when a man realizes he’s supposed to be taking on this role, it can take a long time for him to develop the confidence to step up to the plate… especially if his wife didn’t always treat him with respect in the past. Then, when he does start leading, he’s likely to make a lot of mistakes at first… such as errors of judgment, or swinging back and forth between being “too wimpy” and “too bossy.” As far as I can see, the wife’s job, during all this, is to pray for her family, and to patiently fulfill her own role as best she can… which it sounds like you’ve been doing.

It’s really hard to submit to someone who seems foolish or unreasonable, but I’d venture to say, if he tells you “no dresses,” then don’t wear dresses. Please note, this is coming from someone who prefers not to wear pants, so I understand where you’re coming from. But it’s not as if he’s telling you to stop going to Mass, or something like that. I don’t think it would be wrong for you to wear pants… and I’d even suggest that perhaps you can grow in holiness by obeying him in this matter.

Anyway, for what it’s worth, I’m glad this subject has come up on these boards. It’s not often talked about among Catholics. Several women I know from church (myself included) have questions or struggles in this area, but somehow we don’t generally feel comfortable talking about these things face-to-face. In my own case, it’s pretty embarassing to admit how crummy I am at obeying.

 

[katybird]

I don’t think suddenly announcing to your husband “I’m going to submit and you’re going to be in control” really goes over very well. Honestly, it’s best to not even let them know you’re doing it. Try to replace the nagging with praise. Like, I used to get really bent out of shape about him not taking out the trash. Now, I either simply ask him to take out the trash at the moment I need it done, or I do it myself. Instead of griping about what he’s doing wrong, I focus on praising him for what he’s doing right.

For a while, I’d been taking control of things. He had a business failure and I was angry and told him that I would handle all the finances. I had to hand them back to him - although everything is in my bank account, I’ve told him that there’s nothing stopping him from using my debit card and accessing my account online. It took a little pushing, but now he’s been working on a spreadsheet budget and keeping track of things and he knows it’s up to him to see to it the bills are paid. Nothing has really changed, it’s just that he’s no longer passive about finances any more.

The automotive stuff is still an issue. He “doesn’t know anything about cars.” He’s very passive about it. When the car breaks down, he takes it to a garage. He pays whatever they charge him and doesn’t ask any questions. He went two years without changing the oil or even checking it. He had no idea that the dipstick isn’t supposed to be BLACK. All he knows is that he spent £700 on having the engine rebuilt. He doesn’t know exactly what went wrong or why. Now, me… when I go to a mechanic, I ask a lot of questions. What valve is worn? What seal? When do we need to replace this? Honestly, I should probably just take over and be in charge of the car! LOL! But, I have enough on my plate - I’ll have a 2yo and an infant in a few weeks and I would rather that he kept track of this stuff. He has more time to actually go to the mechanic, honestly. I say to him, “We live in a remote rural place with narrow, twisting mountain roads. It rains 90” a year and it’s dark by 3pm in the winter. I trust YOU to keep us safe. If I get stuck with our babies on a dark, rainy night in a place where the cell phone doesn’t get a signal because YOU didn’t keep the car in top shape, we’re going to have us a fight!" “Well, what do you want me to do?” “CHECK A BOOK OUT OF THE LIBRARY, IF YOU HAVE TO, AND LEARN ABOUT AUTO MAINTENANCE AND THEN KEEP RECORDS AND STICK TO AN ANNUAL SCHEDULE!” LOL. I’m not very “submissive” I guess.

 

[rayne89]

If your husband is not trying to “love you as Christ loves the church” as the Bible says submitting to him could actuallly be leading you down the wrong path, one that is not pleasing to God. The fact he swears at you for failing to keep the house spotless on a particular day shows he is not following the Biblical command.

I second the book suggestions and I also recommend you read them privately so your husband doesn’t get anymore ideas on how to sabotage you. The title “How to Change Your Husband” would not go over well with most men even if the contents is really about changing ourselves. If you can’t find Retrouvaille is Marriage Encounter available to you?

I can’t say in our house my husband is really the head. When we were first married things were very unbalanced and I basically ran the show. My husband had issues, drinking being one of them, and I pretty much felt that entitled me to be in control.

We did go to both Marriage Encounter and Retrouvaille. My husband is also sober now and our marriage is really wonderful. My husband still prefers me to be in charge of most things -keeping track of the finances, making most major decisions. But there is much more mutual respect and I do try to keep him involved as much as possible. I realize he may never be a traditional “head of the house” husband but he went from and atheist alcoholic to a sober strong Catholic and I’m certainly not complaining. And honestly I do have a strong personality that tends to bristle even at the word submission (comes from my years growing up). Hubby is a very laid back so we fit well to together. If my husband does make make a request of me I try very hard to follow through with it because I realize its something that means a great deal to him. And I also know the many loving sacrifices he’s made for me.

My opinion is wearing a particular style of dress or trying to be the perfect homemaker is kind of like taking pain meds for a toothache. It makes the pain go away for a while but it doesn’t treat the problem. Change has to come on a much deeper level. That’s why I think Retrouvaille or Marriage Encounter is a great starting point to address what particular issues are straining your relationship. Something much bigger is going on here then the need to appear more feminine.

 

[deb1]

Katybird,

Doing the finances or taking care of the car doesn’t mean that you aren’t being submissive. Some women are just better at these things. I know a woman who is a mechanic. She is very feminine off of work and does practice submission with her hubby. But I would imagine that she takes care of all the automobile related issues that pop up.

My hubby is in the military and I have had to do much of this stuff by myself at one point or another, so I can relate to the difficulty of doing such things while having a young infant.

 

[lotusblossom]

I’m sorry this is happening between you and your husband. I am just newly married, so I’m not trying to give advice, since I’m new at this, but I can say that entering marriage, I had a completely different attitude toward my husband than I do now. Two wonderful older women in my life sent me a book for my wedding called Created to Be His Helpmeet by Debi Pearl and it changed my thinking completely. I highly suggest it, and I know it won’t solve your problems, but maybe give you some insights. It’s not a Catholic book, but it’s still phenomenal and helped both their marriages (which were completely opposite!) and has helped both mine and my parents.

 

[puzzleannie]

OP’s dilemma is not about the biblica doctrine of submission as it applies to marriage. that is a code word the couple described in this parable are using to avoid identifying and dealing with deep rooted problems in the marriage, which appear to be control battles, but which require professional and spiritual counselling far beyond the abilities of anyone on this forum, fruitless discussion, should be closed by mods.

 

[MamaCarnie]

Actually, my dilemna really was about biblical submission, and how we are to live it out. The only thing I read was How to Change Your Husband, which did say that women should be doormats, and be submissive unto the point of death.
I really was wondering what I needed to do to be submissive, and what to do in a case where I felt like he was making it as hard as he could to prove a point.
Because of the few people that WERE willing to help me, instead of telling me that 1) I need to change myself (which I’m pretty sure I’ve made it clear that I’m trying to do. 2) We need professional help (which I already said we have sought out), we sat down last night and hashed out what his problems with “submission” are, and what we needed to do to form a mutual respect and love for one another. He was completely honest with what his struggles with “submission” is, and why he put his foot down about the skirts (which indeed was to make a point).
I came to this forum, because I hoped some people would give some suggestions, which I got. While we have problems, we do our best to work them out. On a Sunday afternoon it’s hard to find a neutral third party, so I thought I would ask here, because most things that I have read have shown me that I could get mostly balanced answers and not either liberal or ultra-conservative.
I’m sorry if I started a thread that was so controversial or frivolous that you feel it needs to be closed by a moderator.

 

[SeekerJen]

I’m sorry if I started a thread that was so controversial or frivolous that you feel it needs to be closed by a moderator.

Well, here’s one person who doesn’t think this is a frivolous thread. Many women are in your situation. God bless you for having the courage to come forth and ask for help. The ideas and resources offered are for you, but also for anyone else reading this thread.

 

[MamaCarnie]

Thank you. I appreciate your support.

 

[Bruised_Reed]

Recently on the forum there was another thread on submission. One of the points that came up was that a major part of submission was trust. Maybe it would be helpful it someone could link to that thread (I looked and didn’t find it).

Oh, and I’m glad that you and your husband have talked some of this through.

 

[MamaCarnie]

hmmm… i searched, but couldn’t find it. If someone could bump it I would be very grateful.