Subtle alterations of traditional Catholic prayers

[chicago]

I sometimes use “wise” rather than “way” or “ways”, and confuse the heck out of people!

 

[Genesis315]

The English language is constantly evolving and changing–therefore, there often must be new translations from the original languages. For example, Bishop Challoner updated some of the language in the DR Bible in his version from the 1700s.

I read an English translation of St. Peter Canisius’ *Summe of Christian Doctrine–*it was in this really archaic form of English and it was difficult to wade through (although it was well worth it!). The letter “s” looked like an “f,” certain combinations of letters were replaced with weird symbols, a few words I couldn’t even discern–someone needs to update that work’s language because it is really awesome!

Anyway, while I prefer older forms of English for prayers, there is nothing inherently wrong in “translating” them to the current idiom.

 

[chicago]

The English language is constantly evolving and changing–therefore, there often must be new translations from the original languages. For example, Bishop Challoner updated some of the language in the DR Bible in his version from the 1700s.

I really wish Cardinal Newman would have gotten around to doing a translation.

 

[Patrick2340]

Considering “thee” and “thou” as more reverential or more formal or respectful belies the original usage of those words… when they were used, THOSE words were the “familiar” usages - like Dad instead of Father. They were not the formal uses; the more formal usage in English WOULD have been “you” and “yours” rather than “thee” and “thine.”

Can you provide some documentation to support your assertion please?

 

[childofmary1143]

When talking about alterations I can’t help but think of the the St. Michael’s Prayer. Every place I go, its slight revised. Let me give a breakdown:

(Holy)St. Michael the Archangel, defend us in ( the day of) battle. Be our protection (safeguard) against the wickedness and snares of the devil. May God rebuke we humbly pray (most humbly pray) and do thou O Prince of the Heavenly Host, by the (Divine) Power of God, thrust (cast) back into Hell, Satan, and all the (other) evil spirits, who wander (seek) throughout the world seeking the ruin (ruination) (destruction) of souls. Amen

 

[edward_george]

During CCD in my youth (which wasn’t all that long ago as I’m only 19) I was taught some of these traditional prayers (when I was being taught anything at all) using the old language (thee, thou, thy) and still pray them as such out of habit. Now if I could only learn the traditional form of the Act of Contrition rather than the newer one (the older one is more complete, I feel) I would be in good shape.

-ACEGC

 

[Servant1]

Can you provide some documentation to support your assertion please?

All the documentation I need is found in the English literature books and others that I studied in college and thereafter. It’s not a difficult to verify piece of information. I suppose you have proof to the contrary?

Regardless - one sets up an idol when one places form over substance in liturgy and prayer.

Personal preferences are just fine - and you’ll note I stated that. But that’s ALL it is - a personal preference. Doesn’t mean it’s superior for anyone but the one preferring it.

 

[Sarabande]

Funny that I came upon this forum. On Sunday, my grandmother was over at my parents’ place for dinner and she offered to say the grace before our meal. She started saying “in these YOUR gifts”, etc. At the end, my dad said to her half-jokingly, “What’s with the ‘your’ and ‘you’?”

When I was in Catholic grade school and high school during the 80s and 90s we first learned our prayers with the traditional thee/thine/thou. Then suddenly mid-way through they started making us say our prayers with you/your, etc. You’d be corrected if you used the old English. When I got to my teens, started to go back to using thee/thine for my formal prayer. Not that it’s any better, but I feel more reverent and prayerful when I do that. Although, I do speak to God informally when I’m in private prayer.

 

[Gottle_of_Geer]

I really wish Cardinal Newman would have gotten around to doing a translation.

He was invited in 1870 to collaborate in the revision of the Authorised Version of the Bible (what people in the US call the KJV) which finally bore fruit as the Revised Version of 1881-85 (the American Standard Version of 1901 is the equivalent in the US). He declined - I don’t know the circumstances.​

 

[Margaret33]

During CCD in my youth (which wasn’t all that long ago as I’m only 19) I was taught some of these traditional prayers (when I was being taught anything at all) using the old language (thee, thou, thy) and still pray them as such out of habit. Now if I could only learn the traditional form of the Act of Contrition rather than the newer one (the older one is more complete, I feel) I would be in good shape.

-ACEGC

I have the longer/older version of the Act of Contrition on a laminated prayer card which I take to confession with me. I take it because I am nervous and bringing it means one less thing to worry about (forgetting the words to while emotional). I bought it within the past year at a major online Catholic merchant so I assume they are still in use by others! I just prefer the older version better.

It seems that almost all the older prayers are either being shortened, ‘dumbed down’ or language simplified to make it ‘easier’ I suppose… but some things, such as the Act of Contrition, (in my opinion anyway) not only shouldn’t be messed with, but shouldn’t fall suit like everything else in society… fast food and everything else engineered for our instant gratification and for the sake of making things ‘fast and easy’.

Especially, if no one else was complaining to begin with

As has been said by someone earlier… If it aint broke, don’t fix it.

 

[Margaret33]

Regardless - one sets up an idol when one places form over substance in liturgy and prayer.

I’m sorry, this is nothing more than mere opinion and shouldn’t be presented as if it were fact.

‘setting up an idol’ has nothing to do with preferring one (original) version of wording over another, and the fact that you think that is what is occurring, is just that - what *you *think.

And it isn’t placing ‘form over substance’… it’s about the desire to preserve at least *some *things inherently Catholic -

Instead of trying to make everything so unbelievably ‘generic’ that it doesn’t even resemble it’s former self.

We can’t keep rewriting the past and pretending it was the original intention all along… just because the revisions happen to make our lives a little easier.

Ok, sorry, went on a little rant, I mean nothing but peace… but had to get that off my chest

 

[ChunkyFarles]

I find some of the newer translations awkward even if accurate. However, there are some traditional wordings that don’t make sense, eg. the Glory be. That buisiness about “world without end” is a bit confusing to the modern ear, as it is an idiomatic rendering of the phrase “for ages of ages” (in saecula saeculorum). I definitely prefer the modern breviary usage of this prayer to the traditional, as it more closely translates what the Latin and Greek versions say. Ultimately, I prefer to use the Latin as I can read it well.

 

[Servant1]

I’m sorry, this is nothing more than mere opinion and shouldn’t be presented as if it were fact.

‘setting up an idol’ has nothing to do with preferring one (original) version of wording over another, and the fact that you think that is what is occurring, is just that - what *you *think.

And it isn’t placing ‘form over substance’… it’s about the desire to preserve at least *some *things inherently Catholic -

Instead of trying to make everything so unbelievably ‘generic’ that it doesn’t even resemble it’s former self.

We can’t keep rewriting the past and pretending it was the original intention all along… just because the revisions happen to make our lives a little easier.

Ok, sorry, went on a little rant, I mean nothing but peace… but had to get that off my chest

No it is not mere opinion. The definition of “idol” includes that it is something that is an object of extreme devotion or a false conceptionAnd I never said PREFERRING one over another was bad. We all have our preferences. And it’s no problem.

To set a preference as a REQUIREMENT, to say it is OBJECTIVELY better or more acceptable, THAT is when setting up an idol comes into play.

“To Thee, O Lord” is not inherently “more Catholic” than “To You, O Lord” other than ini the preference of the subjective person. I have no problem if you feel more closely aligned to God in worshiping using “Thee” instead of “You.” It doesn’t matter what I think, quite frankly, of your preference. Nor does it matter what you think of my preference. What matters to God is where our hearts are when we do approach him in worship.

 

[Jenny_Z]

I don’t see a problem with changing the “thees” and “thous”… people don’t talk like that anymore. Personally, such as for the Act of Contrition, I use the modern English version, because I feel weird using the “traditional” version… it distracts from what I’m trying to convey, and I feel like I’m focusing more on getting the English right than what I’m trying to say. For some things, like the Hail Mary, I keep the traditional version because it flows better, like a poem.

For some things, I can understand, but really, does the way you’re saying it actually matter? Isn’t it what you’re trying to convey and how heartfelt it is?

 

[Bonnie]

One of the difficulties of modernizing prayers is that we can no longer say them out loud together. Christian Prayer: The Liturgy of the Hours has changed even the “Glory be”. It is now:

Glory to the Father, and to the Son, and to the Holy Spirit:
as it was in the beginning, is now, and will be for ever. Amen.

When we say the prayers in our SFO group, we end up saying different words at the same time. I’m ready to give up on the new version - never liked it anyway - & just go with the old so it doesn’t sound so confusing when we pray together.

As a convert, I was always impressed that Catholics could pray together, such as the “Bless us O Lord” & the Angelus. I think one of the reasons why the Angelus is no longer prayed is because there are at least 2 versions of it, maybe more.

 

[Sarabande]

One of the difficulties of modernizing prayers is that we can no longer say them out loud together. Christian Prayer: The Liturgy of the Hours has changed even the “Glory be”. It is now:

Glory to the Father, and to the Son, and to the Holy Spirit:
as it was in the beginning, is now, and will be for ever. Amen.

When we say the prayers in our SFO group, we end up saying different words at the same time. I’m ready to give up on the new version - never liked it anyway - & just go with the old so it doesn’t sound so confusing when we pray together.

As a convert, I was always impressed that Catholics could pray together, such as the “Bless us O Lord” & the Angelus. I think one of the reasons why the Angelus is no longer prayed is because there are at least 2 versions of it, maybe more.

We used to do the Angelus every day after recess in Catholic school back in the 80s and 90s. I wonder if they still do it now.

 

[Rawb]

Glory to the Father, and to the Son, and to the Holy Spirit: as it was in the beginning, is now, and will be for ever. Amen.

What was the older version, if someone wouldn’t mind? When I say this prayer I say “Glory be to the Father, and to the Son, and to the Holy Spirit, as it was in the begining, is now, and ever shall be, world without end, Amen” but I get the feeling from some other’s posts that this isn’t the older version, and I’d like to know it.

 

[Margaret33]

No it is not mere opinion. The definition of “idol” includes that it is something that is an object of extreme devotion or a false conception

To turn the form one prefers to use in expressing their devotion to God into the actual object of that devotion is nothing more than a leap you have made in your own mind. Which I’m sorry, makes it an opinion. It is like saying because someone prefers blessing themselves with holy water to not blessing themselves with holy water upon entering the church that they suddenly worship the holy water itself.

If one where to follow your line of reasoning, then I suppose it could also be said that any preferred form of devotion to Our Lord, whether it be preferring to genuflect, kneel, the sign of the cross, or praying the rosary, is the actual object of devotion itself. So it doesn’t make any sense to me, I’m sorry.

To set a preference as a REQUIREMENT, to say it is OBJECTIVELY better or more acceptable, THAT is when setting up an idol comes into play.

I don’t recall saying it was a requirement. Along the above line of reasoning you would have to say that anytime anyone expressed a preference for anything, they were ‘setting up an idol’.

“To Thee, O Lord” is not inherently “more Catholic” than “To You, O Lord” other than ini the preference of the subjective person.

The old English of traditional Catholic prayers was one of the few truly unique things that that set them apart from protestant prayers. You automatically knew it was Catholic because of the way they were written and because they had stood the test of time unaltered. They were truly poetic. And now, many just sound well… ordinary.

Definition of inherent: involved in the constitution or essential character of something : Existing as an essential constituent or characteristic; intrinsic. belonging by nature.

I have no problem if you feel more closely aligned to God in worshiping using “Thee” instead of “You.”

I don’t recall ever saying I was ‘more closely aligned to God’ in using ‘Thee’ instead of ‘You’.

It doesn’t matter what I think, quite frankly, of your preference.

How incredibly charitable of you to admit. Thank you.

Nor does it matter what you think of my preference. What matters to God is where our hearts are when we do approach him in worship.

How very correct

Your last line above was never in dispute and I don’t recall ever saying it mattered more to God one way or the other. What I said is that it mattered to me.

And I think I should be permitted to express that opinion without it being intimated that because I prefer one form over another, it somehow lessons my devotion to Him, or that I’m somehow suddenly ‘idolizing’ the prayers themselves.

I do not wish to argue and as far I’m concerned, we’ve both expressed our opinions and can (and should) respectfully agree to disagree

Many blessings to you,
M

 

[Rabbititus]

I’ve always preferred the old English versions - I find them to be more poetic and thus easier to remember and say. Also, I like having some consistancy when praying something like the Rosary - it seems odd to use the old English Our Father and the modern English Apostle’s Creed and Hail Mary.

 

[Bonnie]

What was the older version, if someone wouldn’t mind? When I say this prayer I say “Glory be to the Father, and to the Son, and to the Holy Spirit, as it was in the beginning, is now, and ever shall be, world without end, Amen” but I get the feeling from some other’s posts that this isn’t the older version, and I’d like to know it.

As far as I know, that is the older version, except that people like my dh often say Holy Ghost.